Madoka Magica - Spoilers & Speculation

[erneiz_hyde]

Hurrrr I got down and lazy to come here waiting for the Thursday that will never come. It's such a cockblocker.

And, what's this? Kaijo's back lol. Though I'm currently not in the mood to nitpick. Perhaps just for lulz:

I do give it points for that. If nothing else, I hope this will make future magical shows abandon the genre cliches much more readily, and give us more realistic magical girl shows.

If I didn't know better, I'd think you're a delirious boy who believes in the existence of magical girls lol
Perhaps you're not expecting "realistic", but more "believable" or "makes sense"?

[Kaijo]

Originally Posted by erneiz_hyde

If I didn't know better, I'd think you're a delirious boy who believes in the existence of magical girls lol
Perhaps you're not expecting "realistic", but more "believable" or "makes sense"?

Those would be applicable words, too, yes.

What I don't want to see is monster-of-the-week, with the bad guys sending one one monster at a time, ala Sailor Moon. I want villains with intelligence, and girls with intelligence. I want plots that work as a progression, rather than a repeat. I want things to make sense. The only real way I want to have to suspend my disbelief, is that magic exists. That's about it. Everything else should follow naturally and logically, and not rely on half-assed explanations.

[Shadow5YA]

Originally Posted by Kaijo

Those would be applicable words, too, yes.

What I don't want to see is monster-of-the-week, with the bad guys sending one one monster at a time, ala Sailor Moon. I want villains with intelligence, and girls with intelligence. I want plots that work as a progression, rather than a repeat. I want things to make sense. The only real way I want to have to suspend my disbelief, is that magic exists. That's about it. Everything else should follow naturally and logically, and not rely on half-assed explanations.

I agree that Kyubey's explanation of heat death was a bit crude. He never really clarified the connection between entropy and energy and is assuming the audience is aware of the theory of heat death. He could have left the entropy bit out and just posed the situation as an energy crisis for his race.

He could have posed questions like "Have you wondered where a Puella Magi's power comes from?" and made a more compelling argument.

However, I disagree that the villains need intelligence. Witches, who are one of the enemies, need to lack the ability reason, or Sayaka's transformation loses effect and the possibility of returning becomes more feasible.

[Dark Wing]

Originally Posted by Kaijo

Those would be applicable words, too, yes.

What I don't want to see is monster-of-the-week, with the bad guys sending one one monster at a time, ala Sailor Moon. I want villains with intelligence, and girls with intelligence. I want plots that work as a progression, rather than a repeat. I want things to make sense. The only real way I want to have to suspend my disbelief, is that magic exists. That's about it. Everything else should follow naturally and logically, and not rely on half-assed explanations.

In all honesty Kaijo I believe the only one who would be capable of writing a story you seek is most likely going to have to be yourself. You seem to have a very firm grasp on what you want out of this story so why wait for someone else to make it.

[Deconstructor]

Entropy is a valid scientific theory, and Kyubey's usage to speculate about "heat death of the universe" has been suggested before. The problems people pose here are as follows:

- In our universe, the scientific model of the universe's "free" energy is enough to last for billions of years. Kyubey is making entropy sound like an urgent concern - he could be telling the truth because the Madokaverse is different, or lying to justify his cruel actions towards innocent young girls. Several people suggest the latter.

- Entropy had yet to be even hinted at before episode 9. Suddenly, Kyubey approaches Madoka with a random ulterior motive. Some suggest entropy should have been revealed in the earlier episodes, before people started dying. Likewise, the existence of other Kyubeys, let alone an entire race of him, was yet to be hinted at.

- Madoka's brain was clearly unable to process any of what Kyubey was saying, so it was pointless for Kyubey to come to her anyway. Kyubey's "dumbing down" of entropic law may have overshadowed the seriousness of his claim and been counterproductive to convincing Madoka.

This is my response.

Sheesh... this one minor scene has been heavily scrutinized and used as evidence to level criticism against Madoka. When I saw episode 9, I found Kyubey's explanation a little bit strange. But the scene was only a minute or so. I was more concerned over Madoka's emotional sobbing; she kept crying over her dead best friend. As soon as I knew, the scene was over. Like a vaccine shot at the doctor's office, it was brief and painless.

Sometimes, a quick and dirty plot explanation is worth the extra fight scenes and deep emotional moments. Urobuchi could spend more time focusing on Kyubey's justifications, but the show is mainly about Madoka and company. He is trying to make the viewers focus on them instead of Kyubey.

Originally Posted by Dark Wing

In all honesty Kaijo I believe the only one who would be capable of writing a story you seek is most likely going to have to be yourself. You seem to have a very firm grasp on what you want out of this story so why wait for someone else to make it.

Having one or two hard critics can be an okay thing, as long as the majority of us are willing to suspend our disbelief to human standards.

[Jimmy C]

I scrapped my original reply, because it turned out Kyubei did say, "All this is done to extend the life of the universe." However, I finally realized what Kyubei didn't say in that line just now. So I have a new reply to this.

Originally Posted by Kaijo

I'm not sure you understand the scale here, nor really understand Entropy,

I understand the scale quite well, cosmology is one of my favourite subjects. Which is why I don't buy his explanation, not for a second.

capturing the amount of energy needed for this project, which is the continuation of the universe itself

Tell me something, if the whole universe succumbed to heat death except for a few stars and their attendant planets, could you still say that the universe continues to exist? That's true "from a certain point of view," isn't it?

Yet, while I'm hoping this is the case, I'm well aware of the fact that the only support for it is Kyubei never said he was working to save the whole universe. So I'm not insisting that you must accept this for that reason. That sounds too much like a certain someone who insisted that Kyubei didn't mean what he was saying, or was believing in something that wasn't the case, when he said magical girls grow up to be witches in ep8. And we all know how that turned out.

[Shadow5YA]

There are better ways to simplify the 2nd law of thermodynamics and entropy than how Kyubey worded it. With how carefully Kyubey always phrases his statements, he could have logically made a case where his race is suffering from an energy crisis due to entropy, and that their transformation is saving his race and other worlds to come.

At the same time, he could have noted how magical girls produce energy to what he believes to be little to no cost at all, which would have a logically sound base from Kyubey's perspective but have unethical implications as well.

[Jimmy C]

The thing is, Kyubei knows enough to want to not sound evil. If he specifically outed his own species as benefiting from the energy, it might be enough to make the girls realize they're getting the very short end of the deal after all.

[Shadow5YA]

Originally Posted by Jimmy C

The thing is, Kyubei knows enough to want to not sound evil. If he specifically outed his own species as benefiting from the energy, it might be enough to make the girls realize they're getting the very short end of the deal after all.

Does he? The only person Kyubey gives an explanation to is Madoka, who does understand that her friends are getting the very short end of the deal anyway. While Kyubey does understand the logical implication, it's obvious that Kyubey has limited understanding on the ethical implications of what he says.

[Sol Falling]

Originally Posted by Shadow5YA

There are better ways to simplify the 2nd law of thermodynamics and entropy than how Kyubey worded it. With how carefully Kyubey always phrases his statements, he could have logically made a case where his race is suffering from an energy crisis due to entropy, and that their transformation is saving his race and other worlds to come.

At the same time, he could have noted how magical girls produce energy to what he believes to be little to no cost at all, which would have a logically sound base from Kyubey's perspective but have unethical implications as well.

I'm not sure that the explanation you're suggesting actually makes all that much of a difference. It ultimately comes down to the same thing:

-Home star dies out, Kyuubey's race has to find a new solar system as a source of energy;
-Heat death of the universe means that eventually, stars will not be able to be found anymore anywhere;
-Kyuubey's race needs to find an external source of energy which can introduce new stars into the system.

No 'energy crisis' exists outside of this one. The are innumerable alternative energy sources available if all Kyuubey needs is fuel for their energy needs existing currently (i.e., if they need more energy for now, then they can just grab some of the additional stars which are still burning in this universe). The only impassable wall is precisely that in the future there will be no stars due to the loss of all usable energy to entropy, which is exactly what Kyuubey has said he is addressing.

[Jimmy C]

Originally Posted by Shadow5YA

While Kyubey does understand the logical implication, it's obvious that Kyubey has limited understanding on the ethical implications of what he says.

In ep9, Kyubei is essentially saying, "All the bad things happening to you and your friends is for the good of the universe, put up with it."
If he had said, "Die for our sake. Neither you nor any human will ever benefit from the bad things we're doing to you." Things would be worse.

[Snork]

I was more concerned over Madoka's emotional sobbing; she kept crying over her dead best friend.

That, and Kyuubey's last sentence, IMO. As if she wasn't depressed and disillusioned enough already, Kyuubey nicely hammered the last nail in. Whoever said anything of being a hero and helping other people by hunting witches? Now it's about being firewood and killing more people as a witch than you'll manage to save as a magical girl before that! And here people are questioning if the show is deconstructing the genre or not...

I expect stumbles, though, before someone gets a good story and gets it right, ie, not only consistency, but good writing, too.

Pure IMHO, but the writing in this show is ten floors above the average level seen in anime nowadays. Let alone the level seen in magical girl series.

I really don't think Gen is trying to take a jab at the mahou shoujo genre. It just so happens that his style is generally darker than the typical mahou shoujo series.

He may not be trying it, but other people - Shinbo and Iwakami in particular - clearly stated their intention to make a MG series unlike any other. So they invited a writer whose style, applied to this genre, would look like nothing short of jabbing. AFAIR it was Iwakami's initiative: "Hey, how about making a magical girl show with Fate/Zero flavour? If you're in, I can get you its scriptwriter, even". And I also remember Gen saying that his script was taken without ANY major editing - and we are talking Akiyuki Shinbo here. I can almost bet he did it with the "Just as planned" look on his face.

[Sol Falling]

On the other hand, we've got Shinbo mentioning how nice a second season'd be due to a waste of these characters' moe and slice-of-lifeish potential. I really don't think a critique of any genre's conventions is part of what Shaft & Co. are aiming for here--that comes across to me as somewhat just slightly too arrogant for Gen; and too cynical for Shinbo. Rather, I think Puella Magi Madoka Magica really is just a product of trying to make as interesting a story as possible; so that if in the end it contrasts against other shows in the genre, that emerges as an extension of the strengths of Shinbo and Urobochi themselves, rather than as a reflection of the weaknesses of others.

[Snork]

Well, you don't really have to be cynical at the genre to come up with a wish to refresh it a little bit. Besides anything, PMMM will always stay a magical girl show - just a unique one. It may not even influence the genre in any way, but the effort will be valued, and it pretty much is already.

As for SOL spin-off talks... they might be pulling our leg, but actually I think it will all depend on the reaction to the ending and the BD/DVD sales. If money start coming like avalanche, it will be safe to expect ANYTHING - spin-offs, sequels, prequels, movies, games...

[Kaijo]

Originally Posted by Shadow5YA

However, I disagree that the villains need intelligence. Witches, who are one of the enemies, need to lack the ability reason, or Sayaka's transformation loses effect and the possibility of returning becomes more feasible.

I suppose antagonists don't always need intelligence (the heroes succumb to a virus or something), but when sentient creatures are involved as antagonists, I prefer them to have intelligence.

Originally Posted by Dark Wing

In all honesty Kaijo I believe the only one who would be capable of writing a story you seek is most likely going to have to be yourself. You seem to have a very firm grasp on what you want out of this story so why wait for someone else to make it.

I do write fanfiction much for that reason. ^_~ But critics are natural part of the food chain. And yes, you will find people who defend movies ardently, that have been universally panned by critics. Everyone has different thresholds of disbelief suspension, after all.

But there have been plenty of stories out there with good writing that I have enjoyed. I'm currently watching Gintama, which has come back, much to my delight, and that has some damn fine writing. Mai Hime and Mai Otome had really great writing. I could go on to list a number of different series, both anime and live-action, series and movies, that stand the test of time as having good writing.

Originally Posted by Jimmy C

Which is why I don't buy his explanation, not for a second.

You know, I partially agree with you. The explanation doesn't really hold up, so normally I'd think it wasn't right. If he wasn't being truthful, it might make more sense. The problem is, I think Gen is completely serious here. We're at the 11th episode; the time for the reveal of the antagonists nearly full plan has come and gone, and now it is time for the heroes to come up with a countermeasure and execute it. It's partially why I say the final two episodes could change my mind, but I doubt it.

Tell me something, if the whole universe succumbed to heat death except for a few stars and their attendant planets, could you still say that the universe continues to exist? That's true "from a certain point of view," isn't it?

Um, heat death occurs when all stars have gone dark... The universe is still technically alive as long as there is heat being generated. That's essentially what "heat death" means... the death of the universe's heat. If there are stars still generating heat, then heat death hasn't yet occurred. Remember, most of space is already fairly empty and "cold."

Yet, while I'm hoping this is the case, I'm well aware of the fact that the only support for it is Kyubei never said he was working to save the whole universe. So I'm not insisting that you must accept this for that reason. That sounds too much like a certain someone who insisted that Kyubei didn't mean what he was saying, or was believing in something that wasn't the case, when he said magical girls grow up to be witches in ep8. And we all know how that turned out.

And apparently, only 30% of girls "grow up." In that light, Kyube reminds me much of a meteorologist weather forecaster on the news; he can be wrong the majority of the time, despite thinking he's right, and knowing the subject material as best as he can.

Originally Posted by Jimmy C

In ep9, Kyubei is essentially saying, "All the bad things happening to you and your friends is for the good of the universe, put up with it."
If he had said, "Die for our sake. Neither you nor any human will ever benefit from the bad things we're doing to you." Things would be worse.

You might forgetting some of the things Kyube said to Madoka:

"It's all for the sake of this world we all live in."
"The energy of this universe is slowly diminishing."
"Sometime in the future, you humans will leave this planet and join us, too. It wouldn't be nice if the universe was dying at that time, would it?"

You might consider it merely my opinion, of course, but I think that pretty much says they are doing it for the good of the universe as a whole (of which future humanity will benefit, supposedly), to counter entropy. At least, trying to theorize that they are doing it to fulfill their own energy needs, is just that.... a theory. Well, more of an unsupported hypothesis at this time, and one that goes against the nature of the universe, since a star is going to radiate energy away regardless if someone is there to collect it or not; and that energy is going to be lost unless someone collects it.

The problem, as I've noted before, is that Gen doesn't understand time scales. Our sun has enough fuel to burn for 7 billion years or so, and our species has come so far in a mere few thousand. Any sentient species alive at this moment, should be able to progress to a point where this problem isn't a concern for them, long before entropy sets in.

I've often heard the analogy, that if you were to imagine all of time since the big bang, to take up no more than a year, then comparatively speaking... humanity has only existed in the last half-second of December 31st, right before midnight. Like space, time is mindbogglingly big.

The only way I could see this making sense, was if something else was interfering and causing entropy to drastically speed up, such that the universe would reach heat death in perhaps a thousand years, instead of trillions.

[Sol Falling]

Originally Posted by Kaijo

You know, I partially agree with you. The explanation doesn't really hold up, so normally I'd think it wasn't right. If he wasn't being truthful, it might make more sense. The problem is, I think Gen is completely serious here. We're at the 11th episode; the time for the reveal of the antagonists nearly full plan has come and gone, and now it is time for the heroes to come up with a countermeasure and execute it. It's partially why I say the final two episodes could change my mind, but I doubt it.

No, no; the idea is, Kyuubey is being truthful. Except he is only being truthful from a certain unique (i.e. his own) perspective. Just like he 'isn't lying' when he says that there is no precedent for converting a witch back being impossible.

Um, heat death occurs when all stars have gone dark... The universe is still technically alive as long as there is heat being generated. That's essentially what "heat death" means... the death of the universe's heat. If there are stars still generating heat, then heat death hasn't yet occurred. Remember, most of space is already fairly empty and "cold."

You might forgetting some of the things Kyube said to Madoka:

"It's all for the sake of this world we all live in."
"The energy of this universe is slowly diminishing."
"Sometime in the future, you humans will leave this planet and join us, too. It wouldn't be nice if the universe was dying at that time, would it?"

You might consider it merely my opinion, of course, but I think that pretty much says they are doing it for the good of the universe as a whole (of which future humanity will benefit, supposedly), to counter entropy. At least, trying to theorize that they are doing it to fulfill their own energy needs, is just that.... a theory. Well, more of an unsupported hypothesis at this time, and one that goes against the nature of the universe, since a star is going to radiate energy away regardless if someone is there to collect it or not; and that energy is going to be lost unless someone collects it.

The point of asking you to prove the point of the first above paragraph to say, that 'extending the life of the universe' by fulfilling his race's own energy needs is exactly what Kyuubey is doing. If nobody else, no matter how advanced their civilization, has actually come up with any way to combat entropy, then Kyuubey's method, however self-centered, is still 'for the good of the universe'.

It doesn't matter if every star is going to burn away eventually. So long as Kyuubey's race is able to find up with some method to create new stars, then the universe still exists and life can survive in it.

That is exactly what Kyuubey's method is: a plan to extend the life of the universe, even if just a small part of it, by adding new energy. Not 'countering' or 'reversing' entropy.

The problem, as I've noted before, is that Gen doesn't understand time scales. Our sun has enough fuel to burn for 7 billion years or so, and our species has come so far in a mere few thousand. Any sentient species alive at this moment, should be able to progress to a point where this problem isn't a concern for them, long before entropy sets in.

I've often heard the analogy, that if you were to imagine all of time since the big bang, to take up no more than a year, then comparatively speaking... humanity has only existed in the last half-second of December 31st, right before midnight. Like space, time is mindbogglingly big.

The only way I could see this making sense, was if something else was interfering and causing entropy to drastically speed up, such that the universe would reach heat death in perhaps a thousand years, instead of trillions.

This is still a very optimistic and hypothetical expectation. No matter how quick the progress of technological innovation, there is nothing to say, even in 7 billion years time, that any civilization could learn to warp the fundamental laws of reality. For a while now, humanity has been on an accelerating quest to acquire more and more knowledge. However, that is nevertheless not enough to say that with time and technology, anything will be possible. At the least, it is very clear in this anime that Kyuubey's race at least has not yet truly found a way to 'counter' entropy. The heat death of the universe, as a representation of one complete end to everything, may well happen whether we or not anyone wants it. To say that it should automatically be possible, given a certain time frame, for a sentient species to 'progress to a point where that is not a problem for them' is basically pure speculation. Timescales or not, it is not possible to say that for certain.

[Jimmy C]

Originally Posted by Kaijo

If there are stars still generating heat, then heat death hasn't yet occurred. Remember, most of space is already fairly empty and "cold."

But you avoided answering my question. If only one tiny part of the universe continues to burn with light, can the universe "as a whole" still be said to continue to exist?

And apparently, only 30% of girls "grow up." In that light, Kyube reminds me much of a meteorologist weather forecaster on the news; he can be wrong the majority of the time, despite thinking he's right, and knowing the subject material as best as he can.

And what's the worldwide death rate for under-18 girls?
Every magical girl that avoids death will eventually become a witch. It doesn't matter if it takes one, ten or even a hundred years. Do you think he cares either way?
I do not believe you, even after eps 9 and 10, you're still insisting Kyubei didn't mean exactly what he was saying!?
His whole goal is for the contracted magical girls to turn into witches and collect the energy released from the conversion. You really want to tell me doesn't know what's going inside the Soul Gems/Grief Seeds? Your analogy is wrong. He's more like the engineer that build a motor, he had damn well know what's involved in the process.
But if you want to play it like that, then I can discard any consideration that Kyubei "knows" his plan can actually save the whole universe.

You might forgetting some of the things Kyube said to Madoka:

I did not forget them. Those were my point. Kyubei was pointing out her and her friends' suffering would benefit humanity... at some unspecified point in the future. This was an appeal to her desire to help others.
Had he mentioned how his own species stood to benefit from said suffering directly, it might prompt Madoka into asking, "Do you even care about humanity in the least?" While he will certainly try to dance around the subject, he would probably prefer not to give her an incentive to ask in the first place.

[Dark Wing]

Originally Posted by Jimmy C

And what's the worldwide death rate for under-18 girls?
Every magical girl that avoids death will eventually become a witch. It doesn't matter if it takes one, ten or even a hundred years. Do you think he cares either way?
I do not believe you, even after eps 9 and 10, you're still insisting Kyubei didn't mean exactly what he was saying!?
His whole goal is for the contracted magical girls to turn into witches and collect the energy released from the conversion. You really want to tell me doesn't know what's going inside the Soul Gems/Grief Seeds? Your analogy is wrong. He's more like the engineer that build a motor, he had damn well know what's involved in the process.
But if you want to play it like that, then I can discard any consideration that Kyubei "knows" his plan can actually save the whole universe.

I think he was talking about how the grow up to become witches...

Which 30% seems reasonable since a huge number of them die before reaching which-hood.

[Angelmonster]

Originally Posted by Jimmy C

But you avoided answering my question. If only one tiny part of the universe continues to burn with light, can the universe "as a whole" still be said to continue to exist?

The true question is; Is QB out to save the universe or life in the universe? Him telling the girls their sacrifice is for humanity is just a ploy to get them to turn into MG and then Witches. If we agree that he is telling the truth that doesn't mean he is concerned about humanity or the living beings in the Universe. It just means QBs goal is to make sure that the Universe continues to exist, not save life in the universe.

In fact QB treats life pretty bad, able to re-create its own body so easily (reminds me of Cylons form BSG) and is willing to sacrifice so many for the "Greater good" (whether you think the sacrifice is worth it or not the destiny of a Magic Girl is to be killed by a witch or die as a witch at the hands of another Magic Girl).

I truly believe this is where Homura comes into play, time travel could easily break the mold of Wish > Magic Girl > Death Cycle. Possibly by Homura giving Madoka her powers (thus, possibly, no Witch would be involved in the sysle). This might also help or escalate the entropy of the Universe.

Originally Posted by Dark Wing

I think he was talking about how the grow up to become witches...

Which 30% seems reasonable since a huge number of them die before reaching which-hood.

By 30% I took it that only 30% of the girls in the world are trickable. Only 30% fit into the criteria of losing their minds once they become Magic Girls and thus become witches.

The other 70% would be girls who don't have wishes (Madoka before Mami died) or girls who will not lose their mind and become a witch, or at least take too long to be viable candidates to get their energy in a decent amount of time.

[Elestia]

All which became moot when QB contracts a "Madoka" class MG to turn into a witch that has the capability to destroy the planet in ten days. But hey, that's humanity's problem, because QB filled his quota.