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Nobodyman9 · 2009-02-27, 03:03

Hmm, yvj I'm glad you're here. I definitely need a Kallen fan's opinion. Prepare for some controversy, or as Kallen fans would call it, "stupidity". Oh, and wall text.

It is only recently that a very warped idea has entered my mind; an idea regarding Kallen. It is a very strange idea, an idea that, to my knowledge, has not been proposed at all on this forum. And I believe it has not been proposed on this forum due to good reason. And that reason is quite simply because it does not make sense. So my intention is to explain this idea to you and, through your rebuttal, make me see the error of my very strange and inaccurate idea.

Now I know what you're thinking. It's probably something like "what's he on about?" or "I dare you to make less sense Nobodyman". Well allow me to explain. You see, working as a cashier at Giant (a grocery store) on a Thursday night during the slowest of slowest of hours, your mind can tend to wander. And sometimes your mind can wander into dark and dangerous places, and sometimes it can be hard to get back out. And despite knowing deep down that this idea is almost certainly ludicrous, I can't help but shake this feeling that it may hold some credence. So this is why I need you to snap me back to reality.

But I won't bore you with fancy words any longer. My idea is simply this: that Kallen, though not exclusively, certainly limitedly, and definitely not maliciously, is somewhat of, for lack of a better word...

a whore.

"HOW DARE YOU CALL KALLEN A WHORE YOU SON OF A BITCH?!!!"
"Oh God Nobodyman, you are so stupid"
*facepalm*

I'm sure you're reacting in at least one of these three ways, but even so I certainly cannot drop this topic without further explanation. How this idea first spawned in my mind is somewhat difficult to explain, but suffice to say it arose from a contemplation of Kallen's actions throughout the series. And upon completion of this contemplation I concluded "hmm, you know, Kallen seems like kind of a whore".

*is bombarded with a million flaming arrows*

Now now, lets not be hasty. Please understand that I certainly do not think that being a whore defines Kallen's character, nor do I think she is the most whorish character in Code Geass. That title belongs to our dear Viletta.

To Viletta fans: I kid, I kid.

I simply mean that there are some actions that Kallen took during the course of the Code Geass that, to me, seemed...well, whorish. "What actions" you may wonder? Well, I'm glad you asked.

The source of this supposed "whorism" that I have seen in Kallen, I believe, is very closely connected with her feelings towards Lelouch. Specifically, I think this is a result of the conflicting emotions of her love for, and desire to be with, Lelouch and her obligation to her brother's memory and struggle for her own justice. However, she seems to be quite indecisive in this regard and unable to determine her heart's desire, and thus she attempts to pacify this conflict by forcing impositions on others, particularly Lelouch, which will make the decision easier for her.

To cite a specific incident of this occurence, lets go to R2 Turn 19. Kallen, having been broken free of her imprisonment, is delighted to be reunited with her teammates, and even more so with Lelouch. However, this joy is short-lived as the Black Knights have betrayed Lelouch and openly confront him, leaving Kallen as Lelouch's only possible supporter (well, her and Rolo). At this point, she is still undecided about her feelings towards Lelouch and whether or not she will "follow him to hell", though she has considered the idea. But rather than act on her own instincst/feelings/what have you, she instead proposes a question to Lelouch, the question being, "what am I to you?"

Now this is a very peculiar question to ask. The underlying subtext of the question being that, if Lelouch truly values her as an individual, or even loves her, than she will follow him to the ends of earth. But if he sees her as nothing more than a pawn she will leave him to his fate. His answer: she is nothing more than a pawn. A lie of course. She leaves him to his fate. Now, is it just me? Am I really crazy, or does anyone else besides me find that to be at least a little bit...whorish.

It's almost as if she's saying "I'll die with you Lelouch, but only if you love me. I will follow you to hell and back and sell my soul to the devil, but you have to love me in return." In effect, it does seem to me that she is, in fact, selling herself to Lelouch (or at least trying to) making her, by definition, a whore.

I could cite another example, but I think this has gone on long enough. I'm sure you'll all agree.

Now perhaps there's something that I've missed. Perhaps I'm looking at this from the wrong point of view. Perhaps I'm missing the big picture. Or perhaps countless hours spent on this forum has finally wasted my brain away to a dry and hollow husk of its former self.

And this is where you come in. I implore you to grant me the privelege of basking in the light of your vast understanding of Kallen and your unquestionable logic...bombs. I truly wish to break free of this darkness that has consumed my mind returnt to a state of rationality and understanding. Or, and it's a bigger "or" than the one on the world's largest canoe, do you think my idea could, in fact, as unbelievable as it sounds, hold some credence?

I eagerly await your response.

dec4rhapsody · 2009-02-27, 03:28

Long story short: Koshimizu and several materials indicate that Kallen needed a reason to justify her abandoning the BK and joining Lelouch.

Don't ask me for any links of the scans and so on and so forth.

@nobodyman9
Next time you may try to be less theatrical, nobody's gonna bite you.

Nobodyman9 · 2009-02-27, 03:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by dec4rhapsody

@nobodyman9
Next time you may try to be less theatrical, nobody's gonna bite you.

Sorry, I just have a flare for theatrics.

dec4rhapsody · 2009-02-27, 03:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nobodyman9

Sorry, I just have a flare for theatrics.

Right...
LOL.

+BTW, they somehow have to make Kallen different from Shirley.

Nobodyman9 · 2009-02-27, 03:52

Going back to your previous post, I could ask what further justification does she need then her own desire and resolve? If she truly wants to be with Lelouch then she should do it and screw what everyone else thinks. What does it matter? She'd be doing what she wants and what her heart tells her.

And yes, you are right that, for better or for worse, this does make Kallen different from Shirley. And that's one of the reasons I like Shirley better. To her, it didn't matter if Lelouch loved her or not (though I'm sure she wouldn't mind it). What mattered was what she felt deep inside her. She followed what she believed in her heart and acted with resolve.

dec4rhapsody · 2009-02-27, 04:00

I'd rather say "both" (in regard of "desire" or "obligation" or other crap), since the so called materials turn out to be quite paradoxical.
On one hand Kallen won't put her ZOMG love for Lelouch over BK or Japan, while on the other hand she would have followed Lelouch to hell if he says or lies that he loves her.

As for Turn 19, interpretation goes in two ways.
One is that she is ready to die for him, and just wants him to "spit it out". Expected Value alert. Therefore she is shocked when Lelouch says she is merely a pawn.
The second is your "whore" version.

EDIT: IIRC, the very line that indicates that Kallen was ready to die for/with Lelouch is "Watashi wa anata to nara"/"If I am with you...". Unfinished.
Feel free to put your own "interpretations" on it. (And Lie-san, don't laugh if this actually happens.)

Lolipopo · 2009-02-27, 04:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nobodyman9

Going back to your previous post, I could ask what further justification does she need then her own desire and resolve? If she truly wants to be with Lelouch then she should do it and screw what everyone else thinks. What does it matter? She'd be doing what she wants and what her heart tells her.

And yes, you are right that, for better or for worse, this does make Kallen different from Shirley. And that's one of the reasons I like Shirley better. To her, it didn't matter if Lelouch loved her or not (though I'm sure she wouldn't mind it). What mattered was what she felt deep inside her. She followed what she believed in her heart and acted with resolve.

Actually there are people who can't let their own desire direct their life. I think it's exactly the problem with Kallen ; She is shared between her feelings for a man and a feeling of culpability toward her friends, her country, her brother's dream.

She is ready to follow her heart, but to some extents she needs to know if this guy is a playa or if she had some importance to him; Lelouch being Lelouch he basically said her "yeah you are my slave, I don't care about you it was just for the fun"

After this, whole Turn 22 scene where I suppose you can say as well she is a whore; Then yeah I am going to agree, Kallen was ready to follow her heart and he didn't let her to do so; Now we all know what is a whore and we all know that if Kallen wants to be with him that's a matter of feelings, which can't really be directed.

Anyway I'll not extend n the "whore word cause I know what it is to be in such a state of boredom and I'm pretty sure if you were in your right full state ou will not ve dare to say such such a word in Kallen's thread

(Look behind you from now on. And don't close your eyes during your sleep....)

Now for Kallen and Shirley's diference I'll say the theme of forgiveness was Shirley's theme, sine she even forgave him for her father murder; For Kallen it was more about Faith; She couldn't give up everything for a blind love, she had at least to be sure that she wasn't going to be a mindless puppet.

In a way that's like if a girl had to choose between her family and the guy she loves. If that's just that her parents will not like the guy, she is more a Shirley's case, cause it's only culpability about her parent's feelings; if the story include as well her siblings and her choice could affect them badly in a way or another, se is more a Kallen.
Different degree I'll say.
For Kallen to be ready to give up eveything if the guy loves her, I'll say that her felings weren't merely a joke :/ especially for a strong head like her, to be like this is could even be considered kinda OOC.
I didn't thik she was going to betray leouch at first, because without him they were nothing. Finally it was all about love and she didn't fllow him. She surprised me.

dec4rhapsody · 2009-02-27, 04:19

BTW according to East-Asian standards, forgiving a man who has killed your father because you're in love with him is more whorish than abandoning someone who says you're his pawn whether it is a lie or not.

That's why Shirley got so much shit in the Chinese forums.
But still, Kallen got more because "Yurusanai! She went against Lulu!21#$%^&*"

EDIT: And what did Lelouch say to Shirley that made up her mind?
"I don't want to lose you again."

*bonks Lulu on the head*
Where is your "frankness" when it comes to Kallen?

Nobodyman9 · 2009-02-27, 04:41

@dec and Loli: Very insightful. Will contemplate.

Need rest now.

yvj · 2009-02-27, 05:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nobodyman9

It's almost as if she's saying "I'll die with you Lelouch, but only if you love me. I will follow you to hell and back and sell my soul to the devil, but you have to love me in return." In effect, it does seem to me that she is, in fact, selling herself to Lelouch (or at least trying to) making her, by definition, a whore.

I found your "disclaimers" to be pretty funny

Ok so here are my initial thoughts. Nothing concrete since I'm tired and its 4 am. But here's what my brain is telling me atm.

I reserve all right to change my stance after a few hours of sleep XD

Well a whore would give something up like her body for something that was beneficial to her or made her feel good.

For example people whoring themselves for money, crack or attention.

So I assume you're saying Kallen is whoring herself for Lelouch's love. Which is, she would be giving up her ideals, pride, mother in exchange for Lelouch's love. Most people wouldn't say she is a whore because society kind of holds love in a high standard and the idea that "I'll do anything for love" holds allot of weight with many.

At first whoring for love didn't make that much sense to me. Because if it is "True Love" it is not something that can be given as collateral it's a mutual thing. We can assume Kallen is not one to settle just for Lelouch's attention but for something more.

But it's not beyond the realm of possibility.

Here's random thoughts that popped into my head as think about it. I'm throwing stuff out there for consideration.

Spoiler for Love?:

Spoiler for Loyalty:

Ultimately though I feel that the question (and kiss) was a disarming one. One to take him off guard and appeal to the real Leouch. Whether he loved her or not, she wanted to know if he cared for her.

And if he cared for her. The wouldn't he have let her in? Wouldn't he have explained himself.

Kallen underestimated Lelouch's will.

Edit: Or maybe you might want to go wit Dec's or Loli

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nobodyman9

And this is where you come in. I implore you to grant me the privelege of basking in the light of your vast understanding of Kallen and your unquestionable logic...bombs. I truly wish to break free of this darkness that has consumed my mind returnt to a state of rationality and understanding. Or, and it's a bigger "or" than the one on the world's largest canoe, do you think my idea could, in fact, as unbelievable as it sounds, hold some credence?

I eagerly await your response.

Hilarious. Even if its sarcastic it does appeal to my ego a bit.

Be back later. Maybe....Sleep time

bladeofdarkness · 2009-02-27, 05:07

the whore argument doesnt work for me becouse she didnt actually know how SHE feels about him before the kiss
and in the past (ep 7 mostly) she had shown that when faced with her own wish and her goal she always puts her goals first
she backed down from the kiss (and never actually mentioned it during her "snap out of it" speech)
and after she runs off she stops for a moment and considers going back to him, only to turn back and head for the OOBK (she even considers putting on the mask herself, if he cant)
and during ZERO-R she ends up being his enemy DESPITE recognizing her feelings for the first time (becouse he ends up crossing the line too far)
the scene in ep 19 has more to do with loyalty then love really
dont forget that even if you take away the fact that she loves him, he did just break her out of jail
and he did give them everything they have
and the OOBK are NOT acting based on rational thinking and are not even giving him a chance to explain himself (and unlike them, kallen actually KNOWS why he is fighting and knows he has a good reason for what he does)
under those conditions, walking away would basiclly mean letting him get murdered (while herself becoming part of the group who murdered him)
so she chooses to die rather then betray him (she says she would die with him BEFORE getting his answer)
which is why lelouch does what he does
the only thing that counters loyalty, is betrayal

Levy · 2009-02-27, 06:57

@Nobodyman9: ahaha I love your theatricall flare.. ^___^
Now, contributing a little to the discussion... the only part I find "whorey"' and I'm still struggling to make fit in the bigger picture with pathetic results so far - even though yvj's '..if you love me let me understand' contributed a little - is in her poem.
yeah, the infamous 'even if it was a lie, if you have said you love me I'd have followed you to hell' line.
That, I can't still bring myself to think that the Karen we've know so far was ready to join in ZR, with all the atrocities it took, only relying on her feelings for him. But nevermind me...

What I originally though is that the nice thing about Karen and Lelouch relationship is that is very complex and flavoured with a wide variety of feelings.. she not only loves him but trust him deeply and is loyal to him, but he gave her so many reason to question his honesty - that wasn't actually all that shiny and monolitic - that her own honesty and her own principles conflict with her emotions. By the time of turn 19 - and I would have said even later, but it seems to not be the case - she was still giving the priority to the first two.

Lelouch fooled her wounding not only her feelings - I wonder how aware of those feelings of her he too was back there - but moreover her dignity, her pride and everything she has believed in so far. Is not that she abandon him to his fate because he denied to her a reward, is that she felt betrayed as well, and lost any will to shield him from the accusation of her comrades she has tried to stop moments before, although she knew already that, for the major part, those accusations correspond to the truth and that the chances of clearing Zero's
name at that point are minimal.

Have Leouch said 'I luv u, but you still my pawn, I lol @ you all!', she would have maybe jump in the line of machine guns without a second thought, but it's such a nonsensicall scenario it seems so futile to speculate about it.

In conclusion: no, I don't think Karen is in any way a whore, except for the poem line, because in her love for Lelouch, she puts also the devotion to her ideals and those two feelings are mixed with one another. When she questions him about what she is too him, it's the same- she's ready to have any answer, she just ask for him to give her some feedback for the undying loyalty and love she brings to him.
He fooled her twice, for her sake, but it's not like she let him down because he didn't give her candies. She did because he was doing/has done something she cannot longer accept without questioning him, but he conveniently used this chance she gave him to push her away, because both times, he has gone down a self-destructive path he didn't want her to share with him.

About her being liked by all the cast.......Anya hates her!! =P
but yeah, she's both an admirable and lovable girl.

@Blade: "(she even considers putting on the mask herself, if he cant)"
I can't recall this at all, wich part are you referring to?

bladeofdarkness · 2009-02-27, 07:03

she is holding the mask and thinking when C.C walks in and tells her that its heavy as hell
and then she says that someone has to

Levy · 2009-02-27, 07:09

...in one of the first episodes of R2...? ahh... my memory is quite good on average, but I just can't remember. Need to check back, but thanks

Meatrose · 2009-02-27, 07:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Levy

...in one of the first episodes of R2...? ahh... my memory is quite good on average, but I just can't remember. Need to check back, but thanks

Turn 7 at 15:10.

incorrupts · 2009-02-27, 07:35

Lol, what the hell happened in this thread? No time to read all the tl;dr posts, someone enlighten me. |DDD;
{so when i come back i can play smart 8D}

From what i can see, Kallen's action {one, two a lot ?} can be called as "whor-ish"?
Haha, lulz what?

Levy · 2009-02-27, 07:46

Seems that superexposition to cauliflowers and pepperoni had brought Nobodyman9 to rise the question if Kallen's famous questions in turn 22 (and 19) can be considering whoring, as a very crude reading of her reactions might be "if you say you love me then I'll do anything for you, in any other case... uhm... no." as his love would be the price of her loyalty, and that instead of following her feelings alone, she needed Lelouch to solve the dilemma actually deciding for her.

.. but you'd better read all the tl;dr posts - or at least Nobodyman9's alone, because I did not do a great justice to his argument with this summary of mine I fear ^^;;;- and it was a funny post.

incorrupts · 2009-02-27, 08:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Levy

Seems that superexposition to cauliflowers and pepperoni had brought Nobodyman9 to rise the question if Kallen's famous questions in turn 22 (and 19) can be considering whoring, as a very crude reading of her reactions might be "if you say you love me then I'll do anything for you, in any other case... uhm... no." as his love would be the price of her loyalty, and that instead of following her feelings alone, she needed Lelouch to solve the dilemma actually deciding for her.

.. but you'd better read all the tl;dr posts - or at least Nobodyman9's alone, because I did not do a great justice to his argument with this summary of mine I fear ^^;;;- and it was a funny post.

LOL
Um, that was the point of Turn 19 and Turn 22. Kallen did not ask if Lelouch loved her till the end of the time. She asked him, what he does think of her and what she does mean to him. She wanted to know, if she made an impact on him somehow. That would be enough for her. {goddammit, need to write that manifesto sooner |DD;}

And nobody9, do not let me go there. You know i do love Shirley, but if you are to say that Kallen was "whoring" herself for love {what, what, what? srsly} then i have to point out Stage 12, Shirlulu kiss, when Shirley basically "used" her vulnerability at the moment, to get what she wanted. If Shirley's action can be justified because she loves him, then so does Kallen's.

But again, double standards i suppose. 8)

ETA::: Ok, i just read all of it, Sorry, but argument does not really stand on a rational pedestal.
Kallen did not go and say to Lelouch before she fries his ass with the Guren, "if you do not love me bitch, this pretty Guren hand will land in your pretty face."
The two similar questions were asked on moments, where Lelouch had not gone the public-demon-path fully.

The 19 Turn, was Kallen being loyal to him mixed with love feelings. She did believe the whole deal was kinda one-sided and before she dies with him, she would at least like to know an answer.

Turn 22, she still wants to follow him and help him and is trying to understand him. GOD FORBID that the girl, just lets out all her emotion in a moment. Because Kallen is supposed only to be a warrior that fights, fights, fights. If she has a girly-moment where she breaks down and expresses her feelings then, "oh noes, that is like forcing herself to him."
Not really.
I would only say that, if on Turn 24, she'd be like "Ok, Lelouch love me or give me an answer and i might let you live."

Levy · 2009-02-27, 08:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by incorrupts

She asked him, what he does think of her and what she does mean to him. She wanted to know, if she made an impact on him somehow. That would be enough for her.

I agree with this, and that's why I hate the poem a little...

I mean - and I know already I would be call out on my pairing bias but nevermind, I've get used to that - for the selfless and loyal person Karen is, I don't think that 'love' is the only thing that she would have want/need to hear to have second thoughts - that she has already - about his doings. And on the other hand, I don't think that 'I love you, shut up and follow my orders!' would have been enough to win her completely.... still, I can hardly see her joining in ZR in any case.

incorrupts · 2009-02-27, 08:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Levy

I agree with this, and that's why I hate the poem a little...

I mean - and I know already I would be call out on my pairing bias but nevermind, I've get used to that - for the selfless and loyal person Karen is, I don't think that 'love' is the only thing that she would have want/need to hear to have second thoughts about his doings. And on the other hand, I don't think that 'I love you, shut up and follow my orders!' would have been enough to win her completely.... still, I can hardly see her joining in ZR in any case.

Well, that was Kallen being humble. She could not just go "womanizer, womanizer but tell me if you love me." |DD;;
Kallen wanted to know both of those things. She just could not ask it directly, it was all of a mixture of everything in the end.

Notice her poem, is after ZR. So yes, she has a reason to expect the "aishiteru" and believe in it {even if it is a "lie"} and would believe in him.
It is, tl;dr to explain {lol} but Lelouch changed Kallen and made her the person she is today. So yes, Lelouch is her first priority, the Lelouch she knew and believed that could change the world. {applause for Lelouch's theatrical acts here, he can really mislead people twice}
Well, that was revealed after the whole ZR deal, so yep. You get why she is saying those things on the poem.

2009-02-27, 03:28	Link #18262
dec4rhapsody frustrated Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Glorious Fire Wall-Hmm, I hate my government more than you do. Age: 36	Long story short: Koshimizu and several materials indicate that Kallen needed a reason to justify her abandoning the BK and joining Lelouch. Don't ask me for any links of the scans and so on and so forth. @nobodyman9 Next time you may try to be less theatrical, nobody's gonna bite you. __________________

2009-02-27, 04:00	Link #18266
dec4rhapsody frustrated Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Glorious Fire Wall-Hmm, I hate my government more than you do. Age: 36	I'd rather say "both" (in regard of "desire" or "obligation" or other crap), since the so called materials turn out to be quite paradoxical. On one hand Kallen won't put her ZOMG love for Lelouch over BK or Japan, while on the other hand she would have followed Lelouch to hell if he says or lies that he loves her. As for Turn 19, interpretation goes in two ways. One is that she is ready to die for him, and just wants him to "spit it out". Expected Value alert. Therefore she is shocked when Lelouch says she is merely a pawn. The second is your "whore" version. EDIT: IIRC, the very line that indicates that Kallen was ready to die for/with Lelouch is "Watashi wa anata to nara"/"If I am with you...". Unfinished. Feel free to put your own "interpretations" on it. (And Lie-san, don't laugh if this actually happens.) __________________

2009-02-27, 04:19	Link #18268
dec4rhapsody frustrated Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Glorious Fire Wall-Hmm, I hate my government more than you do. Age: 36	BTW according to East-Asian standards, forgiving a man who has killed your father because you're in love with him is more whorish than abandoning someone who says you're his pawn whether it is a lie or not. That's why Shirley got so much shit in the Chinese forums. But still, Kallen got more because "Yurusanai! She went against Lulu!21#$%^&" EDIT: And what did Lelouch say to Shirley that made up her mind? "I don't want to lose you again." bonks Lulu on the head* Where is your "frankness" when it comes to Kallen? __________________ Last edited by dec4rhapsody; 2009-02-27 at 04:40.

2009-02-27, 05:07	Link #18271
bladeofdarkness Um-Shmum Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: at GNR, bringing you the truth, no matter how bad it hurts Age: 40	the whore argument doesnt work for me becouse she didnt actually know how SHE feels about him before the kiss and in the past (ep 7 mostly) she had shown that when faced with her own wish and her goal she always puts her goals first she backed down from the kiss (and never actually mentioned it during her "snap out of it" speech) and after she runs off she stops for a moment and considers going back to him, only to turn back and head for the OOBK (she even considers putting on the mask herself, if he cant) and during ZERO-R she ends up being his enemy DESPITE recognizing her feelings for the first time (becouse he ends up crossing the line too far) the scene in ep 19 has more to do with loyalty then love really dont forget that even if you take away the fact that she loves him, he did just break her out of jail and he did give them everything they have and the OOBK are NOT acting based on rational thinking and are not even giving him a chance to explain himself (and unlike them, kallen actually KNOWS why he is fighting and knows he has a good reason for what he does) under those conditions, walking away would basiclly mean letting him get murdered (while herself becoming part of the group who murdered him) so she chooses to die rather then betray him (she says she would die with him BEFORE getting his answer) which is why lelouch does what he does the only thing that counters loyalty, is betrayal __________________

2009-02-27, 07:03	Link #18273
bladeofdarkness Um-Shmum Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: at GNR, bringing you the truth, no matter how bad it hurts Age: 40	she is holding the mask and thinking when C.C walks in and tells her that its heavy as hell and then she says that someone has to __________________

2009-02-27, 03:03	Link #18261
Nobodyman9 Banned Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: U.S.A. Age: 36	Hmm, yvj I'm glad you're here. I definitely need a Kallen fan's opinion. Prepare for some controversy, or as Kallen fans would call it, "stupidity". Oh, and wall text. It is only recently that a very warped idea has entered my mind; an idea regarding Kallen. It is a very strange idea, an idea that, to my knowledge, has not been proposed at all on this forum. And I believe it has not been proposed on this forum due to good reason. And that reason is quite simply because it does not make sense. So my intention is to explain this idea to you and, through your rebuttal, make me see the error of my very strange and inaccurate idea. Now I know what you're thinking. It's probably something like "what's he on about?" or "I dare you to make less sense Nobodyman". Well allow me to explain. You see, working as a cashier at Giant (a grocery store) on a Thursday night during the slowest of slowest of hours, your mind can tend to wander. And sometimes your mind can wander into dark and dangerous places, and sometimes it can be hard to get back out. And despite knowing deep down that this idea is almost certainly ludicrous, I can't help but shake this feeling that it may hold some credence. So this is why I need you to snap me back to reality. But I won't bore you with fancy words any longer. My idea is simply this: that Kallen, though not exclusively, certainly limitedly, and definitely not maliciously, is somewhat of, for lack of a better word... a whore. "HOW DARE YOU CALL KALLEN A WHORE YOU SON OF A BITCH?!!!" "Oh God Nobodyman, you are so stupid" facepalm I'm sure you're reacting in at least one of these three ways, but even so I certainly cannot drop this topic without further explanation. How this idea first spawned in my mind is somewhat difficult to explain, but suffice to say it arose from a contemplation of Kallen's actions throughout the series. And upon completion of this contemplation I concluded "hmm, you know, Kallen seems like kind of a whore". is bombarded with a million flaming arrows Now now, lets not be hasty. Please understand that I certainly do not think that being a whore defines Kallen's character, nor do I think she is the most whorish character in Code Geass. That title belongs to our dear Viletta. To Viletta fans: I kid, I kid. I simply mean that there are some actions that Kallen took during the course of the Code Geass that, to me, seemed...well, whorish. "What actions" you may wonder? Well, I'm glad you asked. The source of this supposed "whorism" that I have seen in Kallen, I believe, is very closely connected with her feelings towards Lelouch. Specifically, I think this is a result of the conflicting emotions of her love for, and desire to be with, Lelouch and her obligation to her brother's memory and struggle for her own justice. However, she seems to be quite indecisive in this regard and unable to determine her heart's desire, and thus she attempts to pacify this conflict by forcing impositions on others, particularly Lelouch, which will make the decision easier for her. To cite a specific incident of this occurence, lets go to R2 Turn 19. Kallen, having been broken free of her imprisonment, is delighted to be reunited with her teammates, and even more so with Lelouch. However, this joy is short-lived as the Black Knights have betrayed Lelouch and openly confront him, leaving Kallen as Lelouch's only possible supporter (well, her and Rolo). At this point, she is still undecided about her feelings towards Lelouch and whether or not she will "follow him to hell", though she has considered the idea. But rather than act on her own instincst/feelings/what have you, she instead proposes a question to Lelouch, the question being, "what am I to you?" Now this is a very peculiar question to ask. The underlying subtext of the question being that, if Lelouch truly values her as an individual, or even loves her, than she will follow him to the ends of earth. But if he sees her as nothing more than a pawn she will leave him to his fate. His answer: she is nothing more than a pawn. A lie of course. She leaves him to his fate. Now, is it just me? Am I really crazy, or does anyone else besides me find that to be at least a little bit...whorish. It's almost as if she's saying "I'll die with you Lelouch, but only if you love me. I will follow you to hell and back and sell my soul to the devil, but you have to love me in return." In effect, it does seem to me that she is, in fact, selling herself to Lelouch (or at least trying to) making her, by definition, a whore. I could cite another example, but I think this has gone on long enough. I'm sure you'll all agree. Now perhaps there's something that I've missed. Perhaps I'm looking at this from the wrong point of view. Perhaps I'm missing the big picture. Or perhaps countless hours spent on this forum has finally wasted my brain away to a dry and hollow husk of its former self. And this is where you come in. I implore you to grant me the privelege of basking in the light of your vast understanding of Kallen and your unquestionable logic...bombs. I truly wish to break free of this darkness that has consumed my mind returnt to a state of rationality and understanding. Or, and it's a bigger "or" than the one on the world's largest canoe, do you think my idea could, in fact, as unbelievable as it sounds, hold some credence? I eagerly await your response.

2009-02-27, 03:52	Link #18265
Nobodyman9 Banned Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: U.S.A. Age: 36	Going back to your previous post, I could ask what further justification does she need then her own desire and resolve? If she truly wants to be with Lelouch then she should do it and screw what everyone else thinks. What does it matter? She'd be doing what she wants and what her heart tells her. And yes, you are right that, for better or for worse, this does make Kallen different from Shirley. And that's one of the reasons I like Shirley better. To her, it didn't matter if Lelouch loved her or not (though I'm sure she wouldn't mind it). What mattered was what she felt deep inside her. She followed what she believed in her heart and acted with resolve.

2009-02-27, 04:41	Link #18269
Nobodyman9 Banned Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: U.S.A. Age: 36	@dec and Loli: Very insightful. Will contemplate. Need rest now.

2009-02-27, 06:57	Link #18272
Levy differently sober Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Italy Age: 41	@Nobodyman9: ahaha I love your theatricall flare.. ^___^ Now, contributing a little to the discussion... the only part I find "whorey"' and I'm still struggling to make fit in the bigger picture with pathetic results so far - even though yvj's '..if you love me let me understand' contributed a little - is in her poem. yeah, the infamous 'even if it was a lie, if you have said you love me I'd have followed you to hell' line. That, I can't still bring myself to think that the Karen we've know so far was ready to join in ZR, with all the atrocities it took, only relying on her feelings for him. But nevermind me... What I originally though is that the nice thing about Karen and Lelouch relationship is that is very complex and flavoured with a wide variety of feelings.. she not only loves him but trust him deeply and is loyal to him, but he gave her so many reason to question his honesty - that wasn't actually all that shiny and monolitic - that her own honesty and her own principles conflict with her emotions. By the time of turn 19 - and I would have said even later, but it seems to not be the case - she was still giving the priority to the first two. Lelouch fooled her wounding not only her feelings - I wonder how aware of those feelings of her he too was back there - but moreover her dignity, her pride and everything she has believed in so far. Is not that she abandon him to his fate because he denied to her a reward, is that she felt betrayed as well, and lost any will to shield him from the accusation of her comrades she has tried to stop moments before, although she knew already that, for the major part, those accusations correspond to the truth and that the chances of clearing Zero's name at that point are minimal. Have Leouch said 'I luv u, but you still my pawn, I lol @ you all!', she would have maybe jump in the line of machine guns without a second thought, but it's such a nonsensicall scenario it seems so futile to speculate about it. In conclusion: no, I don't think Karen is in any way a whore, except for the poem line, because in her love for Lelouch, she puts also the devotion to her ideals and those two feelings are mixed with one another. When she questions him about what she is too him, it's the same- she's ready to have any answer, she just ask for him to give her some feedback for the undying loyalty and love she brings to him. He fooled her twice, for her sake, but it's not like she let him down because he didn't give her candies. She did because he was doing/has done something she cannot longer accept without questioning him, but he conveniently used this chance she gave him to push her away, because both times, he has gone down a self-destructive path he didn't want her to share with him. About her being liked by all the cast.......Anya hates her!! =P but yeah, she's both an admirable and lovable girl. @Blade: "(she even considers putting on the mask herself, if he cant)" I can't recall this at all, wich part are you referring to?

2009-02-27, 07:09	Link #18274
Levy differently sober Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Italy Age: 41	...in one of the first episodes of R2...? ahh... my memory is quite good on average, but I just can't remember. Need to check back, but thanks

2009-02-27, 07:35	Link #18276
incorrupts Banned Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Greece Age: 36	Lol, what the hell happened in this thread? No time to read all the tl;dr posts, someone enlighten me. \|DDD; {so when i come back i can play smart 8D} From what i can see, Kallen's action {one, two a lot ?} can be called as "whor-ish"? Haha, lulz what?

2009-02-27, 07:46	Link #18277
Levy differently sober Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Italy Age: 41	Seems that superexposition to cauliflowers and pepperoni had brought Nobodyman9 to rise the question if Kallen's famous questions in turn 22 (and 19) can be considering whoring, as a very crude reading of her reactions might be "if you say you love me then I'll do anything for you, in any other case... uhm... no." as his love would be the price of her loyalty, and that instead of following her feelings alone, she needed Lelouch to solve the dilemma actually deciding for her. .. but you'd better read all the tl;dr posts - or at least Nobodyman9's alone, because I did not do a great justice to his argument with this summary of mine I fear ^^;;;- and it was a funny post.