2010-11-27, 01:25 | Link #19121 |
The True Culprit
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I don't think Featherine resembles Rika in any meaningful way. The only way they look similar is in the way All Anime Characters Ever look similar.
As for the connection between Frederica and the Witch of Miracles...without having played Higurashi, I'm not sure how I can really explain things to you as you have no real frame of reference. As for how Beatrice saved Battler from the Logic Error, I think it was pretty simple. We have a few tricks we can use here, at the top of my head. 1) Kanon died inside the closet (or switched names, or personalities, whatever), therefore, Kanon does not "exist" anywhere inside the room. 2) One truth (Kanon entered the room) refers to the gameboard, but Beatrice fucked with Erika's head by invoking a truth from Rokkenjima Prime (Kanon does not exist in this room). 3) There was never such a person as Kanon to begin with.
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2010-11-27, 01:46 | Link #19122 | ||
Miss Kimi
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Residing as the 18th guest of Rokkenjima
Age: 29
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As for your logic error suggestions, I agree with #1, don't totally comprehend #2 (because I'm an idiot.) but may have some objections to #3. #1 was what I already suspected because Kanon could've simply just died, or committed suicide, thus he's "not in the closet"(because he's dead.). Erika should've thought of this, and since it wasn't confirmed with the red that Kanon ever died at all (At least, I hope not...) Then this truth can exist. #2 Is a tad bit confusing for me. Kanon did go into the room which was confirmed in red. (WHY couldn't he have just CLIMBED up the chimney and get out through there? I would've tried that xD) #3 I'm not sure about. It was confirmed Erika, Battler and Kanon were in the rooms around the certain times. Somebody else could've snuck in under the name Kanon, but who could've possibly done so?
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2010-11-27, 01:58 | Link #19123 |
Member
Join Date: Oct 2010
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If the only exposure you've had to Episodes 1 - 4 of Umineko is the anime, that would explain why you don't see the connection to Higurashi. They cut out the bit from Episode 2's ???? that directly references it. Without that, you're right, it's pretty much just a recycled name and character design.
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2010-11-27, 02:37 | Link #19124 | |
Artist
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Yesterday!
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Now to fully explain the first idea, the assumption we have (arguably a fact by now actually) is that Kanon is not really "Kanon" but if you want a "role" that person is playing (think of Maria with Sakutaro). Uppon giving up playing that role "Kanon would die". This also can fit with the third idea as it'd be, in this case, something like saying "Lucifer entered the room" (because Beato brought the stake in with her) but "Lucifer doesn't really exists". Last edited by UsagiTenpura; 2010-11-27 at 03:18. |
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2010-11-27, 09:55 | Link #19125 |
a.k.a. Akari_House
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Somewhere near Seattle
Age: 54
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Hm, its interesting to see so many different views of Bernkastel. I don't have any problem reconciling the two series, going from the Rika as "game piece" angle. I have a harder time trying to see how the two could be totally unconnected given the number of allusions made by both Bern and LD in Umineko.
The way I see it, is it comes back to the issue of the frog in the well, as Frederica Bernkastel puts it in Higurashi. In Higurashi, we never really see things from the level of the Game Masters, in the meta-world ("outside the well"). The closest we ever get is a observations by Frederica interacting with Rika (and the reader) in the sea of Kakera as it is shown in Higurashi, but even then, Frederica appears to be an unknowable entity at a higher level looking down at the puzzle presented through the various dead-end Kakera. The reader perspective never extends beyond the Kakera themselves to see what greater "forces" might be at work, or things fully from Frederica's perspective. We never fully leave the game board and are thus stuck with the view from within the well. Umineko gives us a broader view. We see how the game is played, how pieces are manipulated from outside the game board by witches. Excepting when the rules are bent (cough, Erika, cough), pieces in the game world are generally unaware of the forces that are at work, or if they are, are unable to communicate this with other pieces (humans). In Umineko, we get allusions to Bern being previously trapped in an inescapable "maze" which turned into an "endurance contest" between her and LD. If we infer this to refer to Higurashi as a game board, the allusion works when we assign piece-roles of Rika to Bern and Takano to LD. And in Higurashi, when the game is "won", we later see Frederica return to Takano's childhood to reverse even her fate, completely changing all conditions of the game board again. This strikes me as a checkmate of sorts, perhaps the final move to remove LD's piece from "play". That said, I can almost accept the idea that Umineko and Higurashi are just re-casting "actors" in the story, much like Cid in Final Fantasy as mentioned, or like Mai-Hime vs. Mai-Otome, etc. But I just feel that the references made thus far are meant as more than just a kind of service for fans. Perhaps Ep. 8 will clear some of these questions up (not holding my breath! ) Great to see Hob from Sandman brought up in a discussion of immortality. I'm definitely one of those folks who'd like to be in his camp. As for LD's Logic Error experience from ep.6, I think Schroedinger really captured it well (http://fc08.deviantart.net/fs71/f/20...er-d2z8c3i.jpg ).
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2010-11-27, 12:43 | Link #19126 | |
Thought Being
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Canada
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I think this idea carries over to Umineko. Just because there are people messing around in the higher world, doesn't change that the people on the island had the emotions and feelings they did during the weekend, even if the presentation of these events are altered (usually giving a clearer view of what the people were probably feeling anyways). I think if there are people that disregard the human emotions of the people on the island, it's because they've gotten too accustomed to the view point of the game masters and witches, as Bern, Lamba, and early Beatrice have.
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2010-11-28, 01:40 | Link #19129 | |
a.k.a. Akari_House
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Somewhere near Seattle
Age: 54
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The "Frog theory", as I'll call it, also reinforces that Rika is not really a "proto-Bernkastel", even though the two worlds are viewed as part of the same metaverse. I don't have a problem with the idea of Bern becoming corrupted over time, but this does change some implications so that Rika is further absolved from any blame for Bern's actions.
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2010-11-28, 05:04 | Link #19130 |
Trust the red.
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Guest House
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Am I doing something wrong here? The seventh book is Judges, and 15 11 onwards talks about Samson defeating the Philistines. (And it doesn't even go up to verse 29, it cuts off and begins at 16 1 before that point).
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2010-11-28, 05:15 | Link #19131 |
a.k.a. Akari_House
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Somewhere near Seattle
Age: 54
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Old Testament, which doesn't feature Christ, so I'm assuming Cao meant the New Testament. That would be Corinthians, which matches. The 29th verse of chapter 15 is particularly significant to the Mormon religion as it is used to justify belief in posthumous baptism.
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Last edited by Ayu-ayu; 2010-11-28 at 05:15. Reason: spelling |
2010-11-28, 07:43 | Link #19132 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2010
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Im going to elaborate more on this theory with facts and symbolisms. Yes its the new testament.
Corinthians 1 and 2 are actually letters written by one of the apostles directed at a group of people. Corinthians 15 verses 1-11 re-affirm the belief that Jesus known as the Christ resurrected and many witnesses saw it, although some of them are now dead. Corinthians 15 verses 12-58 speak of the resurrection of the dead. It affirms that if the Christ came back then the dead will as well. Verses 20-28 speaks of how Christ will vanquish all enemies and even the last enemy Death will fall to him. As the poster above me said, verse 28 is use as justification for the baptism of the dead. This is an old practice where one is baptize in proxy of a deceased person. That is someone takes the sins of the dead and is cleansed from them trough baptism. Corinthians also has a notable saying, 13th chapter second verse. "If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing" Haha another quote from Corinthians 15 "Let us eat and drink, for tomorrow we die.” Last edited by Cao Ni Ma; 2010-11-28 at 08:51. |
2010-11-28, 08:55 | Link #19133 | ||
Zero of the roulette
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Finland
Age: 30
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The part about taking the sins of the dead and purifying near the end had me thinking of the quite plausible theory of Beatrice taking the blame of the crime to herself. Quote:
Some lines Zepar and Furfur use about love seem to be from that chapter as well. |
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2010-11-28, 11:34 | Link #19134 |
Miss Kimi
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Residing as the 18th guest of Rokkenjima
Age: 29
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Hey random question....I keep hearing the name Yasu around here. Is he/she a new character in EP7 or 8 because I haven't seen any pictures or anything...
Is he/she some person who narrates EP7 because I thought it was that girl with the white-ish/green dress's job. ._. (OFF SUBJECT QUESTION FTW!)
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2010-11-28, 11:44 | Link #19135 |
別にいいけど
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
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Yasu is sort of a new character introduced in EP7
We never see her/his actual face, we don't even know her/his sex. We know however that Yasu is "the child from 19 years before", born from Kinzo and Beatrice2, and the real personality behind Beatrice3. It is also hinted that Shannon and Kanon are also personalities that stem from Yasu.
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2010-11-28, 14:48 | Link #19137 |
別にいいけど
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
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Clair is Beatrice's second incarnation in Yasu's world (the character later known as Gaap is the first), in order to tell her apart from her later self (the black dressed Beatrice that we know) she was renamed as Clair Vaux Bernardus. However she is substantially Yasu/Beatrice.
In fact she is called Beatrice during the flashbacks, the name Clair is only used in the meta theater.
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2010-11-28, 20:03 | Link #19140 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2010
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Its uncanny but wouldn't that be like 16 years before the events with Ange? Unless the dude had like a teen age child I just dont see it happening. Probably more RK07 trying to throw us if with info not pertaining to the Umineko mystery.
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