2011-04-13, 19:04 | Link #1961 | |
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A few things I've noted when rewatching: Madoka says "Homu...." in timeline 4. She hasn't met Homura in that timeline, except that moment and at the very end when she sees Homura fighting Walpurgis. Timeline 5 shows two incidents where Madoka "blanks" when she tries to remember Homura, and Timeline 5 opens with Madoka "dreaming" that she sees Homura fighting Walpurgis (which is the end of timeline 4). She also remembers Homura being in that dream. Sayaka says at the beginning of episode 4 "Looking back on it, I was clueless. I didn't know about miracles or the price you had to pay for them." This feels odd because she is the only character that uses this form of narrative, and only this one time. Sayaka's human body is recovered, and Kyoko keeps it alive. Outside of the macabre of a dead body in a hotel room, this feels important. Kyoko and Sayaka's final "clash" happens in a big explosion cliffhanger. We only assume they are dead because Kyubey says so. Compare this to Mami where magazine interviews have the staff say (paraphrasing) "We wanted to make Mami's death as gruesome as possible to reinforce that she was absolutely dead". Remember how in episode 1, Sayaka commented in a silly manner that Homura and Madoka were destined friends, brought together by the universe itself? Now think about Kyoko casually saying "maybe if we chop that Witch in half, Sayaka's Soul Gem will come out instead of a Grief Seed". I'm sure the three prior comments will be passed off by others as unimportant, to me they seem too coincidental. An empty human shell, a casual statement about the Gem, a prayer for a miracle, and then a big explosion? Note that we don't see the barrier fade away either, because it cuts to Homura outside of it after she leaves with Madoka. Kyoko might be dead because her own gem broke, but I can't say Sayaka's fate (in this timeline) is conclusive. Episode 1 also had something else interesting. The first time we see Kyubey in timeline five (episode 1), his shadow is in a plant. It looks remarkably like his shadow when he grants Sayaka's wish. Both times it looks like he has extra tails because of the way the leaves are patterned. There's also the odd graphic in episode 8, when Sayaka turns into a Witch. There's a quick flash of a silhouetted Sayaka crying, holding her Soul Gem, but the shadow that comes off of her is completely different. The pose is different and the shadow isn't holding anything. There's also a weird "tail" coming off the shadow. Kyubey's indifference to Gretchen wiping out humanity. Obviously he's supposed to be emotionless, but getting his quota from Madoka and then saying "oh well"? Madoka's energy might have been enormous but it isn't unlimited. Why would he not care about the future of his energy supply? And why did he expect Homura to fight Gretchen if he already had more energy than he needed? I feel like there's something more about Kyubey that we don't know yet. Anyone who has seen Higurashi might be noticing a lot of similarities at this point.
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2011-04-13, 19:14 | Link #1962 |
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It's a small, irrelevant point (irrelevant to the point you're making, that is), but Madoka used the same kind of weird past tense narrative at the end of episode two, I believe (something to the effect of, "At least, that's what I thought at the time."). It doesn't make the use of this narrative any less weird, though, given that these two instances are isolated.
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2011-04-13, 20:20 | Link #1963 | |
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2011-04-13, 20:39 | Link #1964 |
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Solace is right that Gen has left certain scenes just inconclusive enough to pull off something unexpected, while also having just enough possible light foreshadowing (such as the form of narrative Sayaka uses in Episode 4) of such possible unexpected plot events to make them seem more acceptable than a true ass pull.
I'm not personally going to get my hopes up though because this is Gen Urobuchi we're talking about here, and I have my doubts that he'd give us a particularly happy plot twist. Furthermore, I'd be careful about reading much into visuals alone (such as Kyubey having all those tails in shadows in certain scenes) since that might just be SHAFT being SHAFT. Still, I see where Solace is going in what he's saying, and should Gen decide to go the same way, I'd have no problem with it. Mind you, I did/do like Sayaka a lot, and that biases me a bit here. Edit: There is one thing I want to add here. It's admittedly a gut instinct I've had for awhile now. It might be nothing, but I think something's up with Hitomi. She isn't used much in this anime, but when she is, it tends to be in very pivotal moments (her being part of that suicidal group in Episode 4, then in Episode 8 her telling Sayaka at the worst possible time of her romantic intentions towards Kamijou; telling Sayaka this in a rather odd deadpan monotone, etc...). I can't shake the feeling that Hitomi knows more than what she's letting on, and is working for Kyubey, or maybe is working for some mysterious third party.
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2011-04-13, 20:42 | Link #1965 | |
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No matter how I spin the timelines, it doesn't work. It happens before Madoka contracts, which means it's before Homura comes back to school. Even if you think the whole sequence is a mishmash of many timelines we didn't get to see, that doesn't set it right. Here's the possibilities as I see them... and of course I could just be completely off in my own world here: - Madoka subconsciously remembers her, causing her to mumble her name. It's the cleanest narrative explanation, but it's a weird blink-and-miss-it way to hint that. - Homura's been keeping Kyubey busy for days. This scene comes after Homura returns to class. Why would she wait until they met to deliver such an urgent warning? - Healed with magic, Homura returns to class immediately. The scene takes place the night afterward. Possible, but why wouldn't she come back early again in TL5? Remember, TL1 and TL5 have her coming back on the "same" day. - Continuity error. Repeat to yourself "It's just a show". An understandable one, given all the weird time shifting. So it's certainly possible. - ThereminVox is an idiot. Likely. But probably irrelevant. |
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2011-04-13, 20:48 | Link #1966 | |
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2011-04-13, 21:15 | Link #1967 | |
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I've never thought about Hitomi knowing more than anyone else outside the puella magi circle... that would be an interesting twist. I hope that all the more minor characters (Hitomi, Kyosuke, Madoka's family) have a solid role in the last two episodes, even if they don't get much screentime. I like all the supporting characters and none of them have been used very much, so it would be nice if they're given at least some kind of part to play in the finale. |
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2011-04-14, 05:28 | Link #1968 | ||
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Yup I knew what you meant. No worries.
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2011-04-14, 05:46 | Link #1969 | |
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Good thing she can stop time, though. We all know what happens whenever Homura tries to do "research"... Spoiler for researching:
Last edited by ThereminVox; 2011-04-14 at 06:13. |
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2011-04-14, 08:53 | Link #1971 | |
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At the end of day, Kyubey was not a supernatural being intrinsically tied to Earth (as that nine-tailed fox imagery may lead one to believe), but rather an alien.
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2011-04-14, 08:56 | Link #1972 | ||||
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Of course, one could justly argue that even protection as a process doesn't need to end with Walpurgis Night. I'm clutching at this counterargument for now, just in case. As to Madoka's character, I think she had always re-estimated herself each time she became a Puella Magi, a hero of justice. No more being useless - I'm saving people here, yay! Based on this, her self-esteem rose significantly, and that's the Madoka we witnessed in ep 10. But no self-esteem is a shield against outer shocks - and the events Madoka goes through in TL3 break her as easily as they do in TL5 before she ever contracts, especially since they involve terrible endings for her friends and the brutal disruption of her newly found meaning in life. TL4 and the beginning of TL5 show us the "raw", original Madoka. But in TL4 she didn't have any time to feel like a hero... and the current timeline dumped all the psychobombs on her without contracting. Quote:
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2011-04-14, 09:02 | Link #1973 | ||
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The better question is how Homura knows Kyubey's true identity when he was never shown to give her an explanation. From a narration standpoint, it serves no purpose because Kyubey had already given an explanation in the previous episode. That is why only the aftermath of Walpurgis Night is shown and not every battle in their entirety. Most likely, Kyubey gave his explanation during one of the timelines, like Madoka's transformation in timeline 4. Homura is silent while Kyubey is already planning to leave. There is room for them to have had a conversation before the scene skip. Quote:
In the end, Kyubey did deceive all of the girls. |
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2011-04-14, 09:46 | Link #1974 | ||
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I have wondered how she knows QB is Incubator, all I can think of is that is the name SHE gave to QB. He is incubating the egg (magic girl) to become the seed (Witch) to power its anti-entropy plan. The question is does Homura know about the entropy or does she think QB is just trolling them to become witches for sinister reasons? |
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2011-04-14, 10:07 | Link #1976 | ||
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For all I know she may end up paralleling Homura's wish.....isn't that her strongest desire anyway? To save everyone? Quote:
But come to think of it....."I wish I never contracted" How is Kyuube going to solve that one?
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2011-04-14, 10:12 | Link #1977 | |
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2011-04-14, 10:39 | Link #1978 | ||
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2011-04-14, 10:50 | Link #1979 | ||||||||
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Excellent post. Lots of nice catches.
Yes--Homura has just perforated QB, and then berates Madoka for always sacrificing herself, when the animation suddenly flashes this bizarre and unexplained image: What is this? Quote:
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I really think Sayaka is coming back. And it won't be in a magic-wand waving, Madoka Omnipotent manner--not if all this other stuff--Kyoko preserving the body, Kyoko sacrificing herself for Sayaka--is somehow necessary for that happy conclusion. Quote:
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Nice catch, by the way, in your question as to just how she knows this is his true name. English speakers have a hint, since QB contains the central phonemes of "Incubator." On this line, I wonder why significant technical terms, such as "Grief Seed," are referred to in English in the Japanese-language version? Quote:
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It is possible to account for this reversal by pointing to Homura's wish rather than the absence of Madoka's wish. Both explanations work. I prefer making Homura responsible, since that continues the theme of unanticipated negative consequences of wishes Sayaka has already exemplified. Homura gets to protect her friend, but then Madoka ceases to be the same person who had impressed Homura into wanting to protect her in the first place. A nice catch-22, that precisely illustrates the folly of wishes... |
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2011-04-14, 11:09 | Link #1980 | |
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Don't get me wrong, I agree that because of Homura's wish, their roles have somewhat reversed. But roles and personalities are not the same thing. Meek and insecure Madoka is the real Madoka, not the product of Homura's wish. Besides, it's not as if Homura longs for the cool Madoka who saved her life. She just wants Madoka no to sacrifice her life. That's her wish!
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