Gay Marriage and other problems homosexuals face

[Throne Invader]

Originally Posted by HayashiTakara

Actual the usage of gender vs sex didn't start appearing till psychologists and other such scientist started "dealing with" homosexuals. For a very long time gender = sex. It wasn't till fairly recently where they started "messing with" the terms.

Yep, that's how it was before. You'd fill up application forms and there is either "sex" or "gender" and choices would be male or female or M/F.

[Fate21]

Personally when I think about it, it's a good method to decrease population problems.
So what.. you can call homosexual, then what about hermaprodit.. (sorry if I'm kinda off topic)

[Reckoner]

Originally Posted by WanderingKnight

What "meaning"? Does "Mother Nature" (lol) make anything with any sort of meaning at all?

I mean, the strong slaughter the weak all the time, going by Mother Nature's Design (TM). I thought we were over that already (yeah, I know, it still happens but that's not the point here).

What meaning is there to anything? The only thing that matters is that two men want to live together on a regular basis and want to be recognized as all couples who live together on a regular basis, with all the legal benefits that carries over. Who the hell cares if you don't like that? Who the hell cares what Mother Nature (lol) meant to do? There are men who like to have sex with men, and that is it. They exist. There's no bigger mystery behind it. Now give them the rights they deserve or just go look for porn in another website.

Please read the ongoing topic before jumping on me. You make all these assumptions about me without me ever saying anything, and you cannot have read just one post and understood what my opinion is at all.

Since I understand this a lengthy thread already....

When I talk about normal, I'm not not talking about meaning given to us by some higher authority like God, I'm talking about meaning in a Darwinian evolutionary sense in Science.

Now even though I think homosexuality is just a screw up by nature, I do not seek to punish these people as like you say, this is no one's business. In fact, I think homosexuals should enjoy the same rights and entitlement to marriage as heterosexuals.

Now please continue flaming someone else, unless you still find some issue with my post that is not adequately soaked in your own liberal ideology.

[WanderingKnight]

When I talk about normal, I'm not not talking about meaning given to us by some higher authority like God, I'm talking about meaning in a Darwinian evolutionary sense in Science.

See, I have issues with that statement, too. You're basically assuming that there's some higher order in "nature" (which is what I jokingly called Mother Nature) and that homosexuality is somehow a misshappen in an otherwise perfect environment.

However, you fail to take into account that the environment doesn't give a damn about "right" or "wrong". Things just are.

[Reckoner]

Originally Posted by WanderingKnight

See, I have issues with that statement, too. You're basically assuming that there's some higher order in "nature" (which is what I jokingly called Mother Nature) and that homosexuality is somehow a misshappen in an otherwise perfect environment.

However, you fail to take into account that the environment doesn't give a damn about "right" or "wrong". Things just are.

You're just attacking me with a strawman. Nowhere did I ever place some authority on nature... and that is irrelevant anyways, because my point was that homosexuality, from how I see it, does not help a species survive. Thus I see it as some screw up in nature, IF (AND ONLY IF) we look at this from an evolutionary point of view. This is why I compared homosexuality to polydactyly.

[james0246]

Originally Posted by Reckoner

You're just attacking me with a strawman. Nowhere did I ever place some authority on nature... and that is irrelevant anyways, because my point was that homosexuality, from how I see it, does not help a species survive. Thus I see it as some screw up in nature, IF (AND ONLY IF) we look at this from an evolutionary point of view. This is why I compared homosexuality to polydactyly.

Hmm, polydactyly is generally the first sign of a syndrome of connecting congenital anomalies (as are most specific genetic mutations/screw up in the womb). So, if homosexuality was such a mutation of a gene, then there should be other connecting anomalies found within a homosexual's body, but, to the best of my knowledge, no such syndrome has been found. In other words, homosexuality seems to be too specific (in regards to outcome) with seemingly no real damage to the human (no syndrome), to be a simple mutation or screw up in the womb.

Then again, Homosexuality may very well be some sort of genetic mutation that requires some specific congenital anomalies to occur in order to be activated. Currently, there is no real answer to this question...

That being said, even if this is just a simple case of mutation, since it is widespread, and there is no apparent way to "cure"/"prevent" the mutation, then just as a Down Syndrome person can be wed, why not a Homosexual? Legal and Moral ramifications for an individual have nothing really to do with evolution (we are not a eugenics run society, after all), and everything to do with what is perceived as selfhood, identity, and personal rights.

So, once again, the validity of homosexuality as an evolutionary strategy of humanity (and the animal kingdom, considering that some 500 recorded species have displayed homosexual tendencies), has no specific bearing on the sociological question of marriage.

[Reckoner]

Originally Posted by james0246

So, once again, the validity of homosexuality as an evolutionary strategy of humanity (and the animal kingdom, considering that some 500 recorded species have displayed homosexual tendencies), has no specific bearing on the sociological question of marriage.

You realize I support gay marriage right? The only thing I have been trying to make a point about this whole time is that homosexuality is not, biologically speaking, a normal trait the way I see it... Doesn't have to be a mutation.

[james0246]

^Aye, I understand. I was simply trying to steer the thread back to a discussion of Sociology (and other social sciences that are pertinent to the discussion of marriage rights), rather than Biology.

[2H-Dragon]

I always go on the rule of if it ain't hurting anyone who cares. Let them have their marriage. Religious arguments have no place in this discussion. Since marriage by the state has nothing to do with religion.

[Reckoner]

Originally Posted by james0246

^Aye, I understand. I was simply trying to steer the thread back to a discussion of Sociology (and other social sciences that are pertinent to the discussion of marriage rights), rather than Biology.

Alright, understood .

Whether or not it is biologically normal shouldn't affect any decision about gay marriage because it is simply just a fact of the matter that is not going to change.

So yeah, I'll stop talking about the biology as it really isn't very significant in this matter.

[prometheus126]

Personaly I think marriage is pointless and an old archaic tradition, so I don't think anyone should be getting married, straight or gay. (................... oh wait, what's this ring doing here?)

[Kamiyama_Satoru]

I think that everyone should have the right to get married with the one he love, whatever sexuality they have. I am a big defender of homosexuals and I have a lot of gay friends I fight for. Love is love, people should not judge it. As long as the feeling is pure and is there, their religion, gender, nationality and so on, shouldn't matter. Beside of that, the discrimination against homosexuals has grew a lot in the last time, especially in my country. My friends are from Japan and there is more accepted then here. Even so, they have problems and they get treated badly because of it.

If is okay, I have a question for you guys on this subject. All my friends had a really terrible trauma because of their parents that had never understood them. They got beat up, locked in their rooms, interned in hospitals for mental problems by their parents who just couldn't get used with the idea that they like boys and not girls. My question is, what would you do if your son would tell you he's gay? Would you really started hating him for it or would you accept him and help him face the ones who'll anyway hurt him for it?

That's kind of all. I don't know if I am off-topic with it but I am really curious about it and since the title says "and other problems homosexuals face" I thought it to be okay, since it is a problem they face.

[prometheus126]

Originally Posted by Kamiyama_Satoru

If is okay, I have a question for you guys on this subject. All my friends had a really terrible trauma because of their parents that had never understood them. They got beat up, locked in their rooms, interned in hospitals for mental problems by their parents who just couldn't get used with the idea that they like boys and not girls. My question is, what would you do if your son would tell you he's gay? Would you really started hating him for it or would you accept him and help him face the ones who'll anyway hurt him for it?

That's kind of all. I don't know if I am off-topic with it but I am really curious about it and since the title says "and other problems homosexuals face" I thought it to be okay, since it is a problem they face.

My mother told me that she knew my sister was gay before she did and I heard Melissa Etheridge said her father stated the same thing. hopefully, I would be the same way with my child. If I didn't know beforehand and told me one day, of course I would be suprised but it wouldn't deter any emotions I would have towards my son. why would it? a small thing such as liking men doesn't change the fact that he is my child in any way shape or form and never will. I would just hope he would find a good man who I like and is a good boyfriend to him. that's all.

[Zu Ra]

Originally Posted by Kamiyama_Satoru

Wat would you do if your son would tell you he's gay?

Love is always unconditional or it cant be called love . So if a Parent truly loves his child then the parent would be happy and supportive of him/her .

Originally Posted by prometheus126

Doesn't change the fact that he is my child in any way shape or form

Nicely said and well put ^__^ . Just because he she is gay love doesn't diminish it grows more as its your Kid Vs A Judgmental world .

[synaesthetic]

Since I don't plan on having children... but even if I did, I wouldn't be upset if a child of mine turned out to be gay.

[cheyannew]

Originally Posted by Kamiyama_Satoru

If is okay, I have a question for you guys on this subject. All my friends had a really terrible trauma because of their parents that had never understood them. They got beat up, locked in their rooms, interned in hospitals for mental problems by their parents who just couldn't get used with the idea that they like boys and not girls. My question is, what would you do if your son would tell you he's gay? Would you really started hating him for it or would you accept him and help him face the ones who'll anyway hurt him for it?

My girlfriend and I have actually discussed this; as have my hubby and I. The short answer is, if there's going to be a couple of gay kids born, we'd actually prefer they be ours, because we KNOW there won't be any backlash, at least not from us. We don't care one way or another what they end up being, but at least they'd be safe from home-linked harm with us.

So, if my son or daughter say "Mom, I think I like boys/girls", it won't bother me; I'll just have to give a different "class" on sex ed LOL

[Throne Invader]

Originally Posted by Zu Ra

Love is always unconditional or it cant be called love . So if a Parent truly loves his child then the parent would be happy and supportive of him/her .

Love is not always unconditional. A parent doesn't necessarily have to idly stand by and let their child be. There are numerous ways to address the situation and not doing anything about it wouldn't be the best solution.

[cheyannew]

Originally Posted by FragrantFlora

Love is not always unconditional. A parent doesn't necessarily have to idly stand by and let their child be. There are numerous ways to address the situation and not doing anything about it wouldn't be the best solution.

I have to disagree....

You (we? I don't know if you're a parent) may not LIKE what our kid is doing, may not feel it's in their best interest or whatever, but does that remove love from the equation? I don't think so.

Even the kids who get disowned for whatever reason are loved. They merely get disowned/thrown out because the parent(s) have a certain ideal for their kid they don't live up to. It's an odd way of showing said love, but I have no doubt, in that parent's mind they're doing what they do out of love.

We raise our kids to be self-sufficient, freethinking beings of their own. Usually, we also raise them to be "better" than ourselves; having a better life, more open mindedness, or whatever. I cannot fathom a parent well and truly hating their child for being gay, or whatever. The love they feel might get all skewed and wonky, and shown differently in a way that can be interpreted as hate, but I don't feel it's truly hate. I think it's just great disappointment, that the parent doesn't know how to show properly.

[synaesthetic]

Actually I'm pretty sure my parents disowned me because they wanted me to either go away forever or die. I'm pretty sure there was no "love" in that, since the whole situation was just a way to get the "embarrassment to the family" (me) away from the family.

[cheyannew]

Originally Posted by synaesthetic

Actually I'm pretty sure my parents disowned me because they wanted me to either go away forever or die. I'm pretty sure there was no "love" in that, since the whole situation was just a way to get the "embarrassment to the family" (me) away from the family.

Mayhaps; but maybe there was some misguided form of "love" there.

I daresay my mom doesn't hate me, but that doesn't excuse her nearly making me miscarry my son...

Parents can be really silly (stupid) creatures....

Course I may be totally wrong on that and it might explain why I have about 9 adults who continue to call me "mom" LOL I give them the love & support they didn't have from their actual parents...