Code Geass (Generic discussion thread)

[Laloosh]

Can anyone tell me what the song is that's being played at 15:15 in this video?

http://vodpod.com/watch/1708875-code...episode-23-dub

[Knightrunner]

Imagine if Schniezel would have actually ordered the bomb to hit the blacknights and the avalon then the series would have ending with a crazy bang with all the characters dieing.

[bladeofdarkness]

and who would be to blame for that ?
i'll give you a hint
his name starts with an L

[eaglei3]

Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness

and who would be to blame for that ?
i'll give you a hint
his name starts with an L

Schneizel for shooting them. Well, and Nunnally for being the trigger person.

[bladeofdarkness]

*buzzer sound*
i'm sorry, but i'm afraid you're wrong
the correct answer is
"lelouch, i dragged the entire world into a battle instead of working WITH the OOBK to stop shnizel because my ego is too big for my own good, Vi Britannia"

[eaglei3]

Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness

*buzzer sound*
i'm sorry, but i'm afraid you're wrong
the correct answer is
"lelouch, i dragged the entire world into a battle instead of working WITH the OOBK to stop shnizel because my ego is too big for my own good, Vi Britannia"

No, you are wrong. Lelouch and Schneizel are two separate problems to the BK. You can't blame everything in the show on Lelouch, when Schneizel is available to act. Not Lelouch's fault they were incompetent without Zero and 'worked' with the other evil attempting to take over the world... besides, they would have been nuked long ago if Lelouch didn't allow the betrayal to happen.

[bladeofdarkness]

Originally Posted by eaglei3

No, you are wrong. Lelouch and Schneizel are two separate problems to the BK. You can't blame everything in the show on Lelouch, when Schneizel is available to act. Not Lelouch's fault they were incompetent without Zero and 'worked' with the other evil attempting to take over the world... besides, they would have been nuked long ago if Lelouch didn't allow the betrayal to happen.

Lelouch attacked them and took their leaders hostage ON HIS SHIP
them attacking it is kinda expected
which is why, in THIS case, it actually IS lelouch's fault

and hardly incompetent without zero
when lelouch leads them, they struggle in every battle even WITH his strategy
when faced AGAINST lelouch who now leads the enemy army, they tear his army to pieces
he needs to resort to blowing up a volcano at them just to slow them down (they still manage to sink his ship, free the hostages, and almost kill him)
guess Lelouch aint all that good of a leader after all

plus, "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" is a long honored lasting way of war
not like they could know what shnizel is planning, so to THEM he wasnt even a problem (he seemed like the SANE one)
but they DID know what Lelouch is planning (trying to take oever the world)

and what exactly do you mean "allowed" the betrayal to happen ?

[eaglei3]

Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness

Lelouch attacked them and took their leaders hostage ON HIS SHIP
them attacking it is kinda expected
which is why, in THIS case, it actually IS lelouch's fault

plus, "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" is a long honored lasting way of war
not like they could know what shnizel is planning, so to THEM he wasnt even a problem (he seemed like the SANE one)
but they DID know what Lelouch is planning (trying to take oever the world)

So, you have two guys you are upset with. One does something that makes you try and confront him. The 2nd guy finds out about this, tags along with you cause he says he will help you, then stabs in the back because he wanted you out of the way as well. Is that the first guys fault? No, you brought the guy along with the other problem, his agendas came through, you got taken out. That is how I see the Lelouch <--> Schneizel <--> Black Knights ordeal. Schneizel before having to surrender his fortress was all willing to take the BK out as armed forces would have no purpose in his Fleia enforced world.

Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness

and what exactly do you mean "allowed" the betrayal to happen ?

He was acting as if he was going to try his best to get out until he noticed Schneizel. Schneizel's presence, killed all thought of that. He knew that if he told Kallen the truth when she questioned him, and convinced the BKs he wasn't really betraying them, Schneizel would have quickly left the ship and ordered Fleia fired upon them most likely, hence Schneizel's "check" that Lelouch refers to. A pretty good chess analogy really where the King is forced to move away and abandon his pieces that can no longer help defend him from attack by the opposition, have possibly become a trap to him, which can lead to his defeat.

EDIT: More chess analogy:At times where this happens, the king is tipped over surrendering to save the other pieces from being captured. While in chess the object is of course to win the game, if you don't see the game as overall winner vs winner, you can see that both sides save a lot of material sacrifices when the King is surrendered to surmounting doom.

[bladeofdarkness]

Originally Posted by eaglei3

So, you have two guys you are upset with. One does something that makes you try and confront him. The 2nd guy finds out about this, tags along with you cause he says he will help you, then stabs in the back because he wanted you out of the way as well. Is that the first guys fault? No, you brought the guy along with the other problem, his agendas came through, you got taken out. That is how I see the Lelouch <--> Schneizel <--> Black Knights ordeal. Schneizel before having to surrender his fortress was all willing to take the BK out as armed forces would have no purpose in his Fleia enforced world.

so you have two guys
one tries to kill you
the other does something that HELPS you against the guy trying to kill you because the first guy also wants to kill HIM
you join forces with this guy because, while you dont like him, you know for a FACT that the other guy you are both fighting is trying to kill you both (you'd never actually join forces with him otherwise)
after you got the first guy down, the other guy shoots you in the back
the only reason you had your back turned to him in the first place was because you we're busy fighting with the first guy
so yeah

He was acting as if he was going to try his best to get out until he noticed Schneizel. Schneizel's presence, killed all thought of that. He knew that if he told Kallen the truth when she questioned him, and convinced the BKs he wasn't really betraying them, Schneizel would have quickly left the ship and ordered Fleia fired upon them most likely, hence Schneizel's "check" that Lelouch refers to. A pretty good chess analogy really where the King is forced to move away and abandon his pieces that can no longer help him from attack by the opposition, sometimes leading to defeat.

what show we're YOU watching
the reason this was a "checkmate" was because he know no matter what he did or said he could never get out of it because shnizel would have thought about anything he might try
and that if kallen stayed and tried to explain she'd just end up getting killed as well
not because she'd be able to explain to them that he wasn't betraying them
even SHE knew that they we're not going to listen at that point (which is why she asked him "what do i mean to you" and said she's ready to die if its with him)
if by some miracle lelouch DID convince them that he didnt betray them, shnizel would never have gotten out of that room alive, let alone get out to order a flejia

[morbosfist]

Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness

if by some miracle lelouch DID convince them that he didnt betray them, shnizel would never have gotten out of that room alive, let alone get out to order a flejia

Yeah, he would have just made a call to Anya, who was in the hanger, to detonate her FLEIJA and kill them all.

[bladeofdarkness]

are you under the assumption shnizel wants to die ?
because Lelouch at that point, doesn't care all that much

[eaglei3]

Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness

so you have two guys
one tries to kill you
the other does something that HELPS you against the guy trying to kill you because the first guy also wants to kill HIM
you join forces with this guy because, while you dont like him, you know for a FACT that the other guy you are both fighting is trying to kill you both (you'd never actually join forces with him otherwise)
after you got the first guy down, the other guy shoots you in the back
the only reason you had your back turned to him in the first place was because you we're busy fighting with the first guy
so yeah

Once again, your death is at fault of the guy who shot you in the back. It is A) his fault for shooting you, and b) your fault for not fully investigating him before asking him for help. While he may have in fact wanted to get rid of the other guy as well, you too were on his hit list.

Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness

what show we're YOU watching
the reason this was a "checkmate" was because he know no matter what he did or said he could never get out of it because shnizel would have thought about anything he might try
and that if kallen stayed and tried to explain she'd just end up getting killed as well
not because she'd be able to explain to them that he wasn't betraying them
even SHE knew that they we're not going to listen at that point (which is why she asked him "what do i mean to you" and said she's ready to die if its with him)
if by some miracle lelouch DID convince them that he didnt betray them, shnizel would never have gotten out of that room alive, let alone get out to order a flejia

I just watched that part of the show in both sub and dub form to see if their were any discrepancies in the two, which there was not in terms of the check and Schneizel being the one to end all plans Lelouch possibly could have thought up. That is what I watched, so stop with the undercuts in intelligence.

The 'check' goes with what I was saying with the 'most likely' part on what Schneizel would do. Either scenario, what I said about Schneizel being the one to prevent Lelouch from doing anything plays true. Checkmate in 5 still wins even though Checkmate in 3 is quicker.

Schneizel was standing on a catwalk away from everyone, with Anya in stand-bye in Mordrid, plus the threat of Fleia. The odds of them capturing him in that scenario were very unlikely.

[eaglei3]

Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness

are you under the assumption shnizel wants to die ?
because Lelouch at that point, doesn't care all that much

Umm... Schneizel is known as a character known for having attachments to nothing. Heck, when Lelouch finally beats him, he is ready for death with no care, but then Lelouch geasses him to follow Zero.

[Revolutionist]

Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness

Lelouch attacked them and took their leaders hostage ON HIS SHIP
them attacking it is kinda expected
which is why, in THIS case, it actually IS lelouch's fault

and hardly incompetent without zero
when lelouch leads them, they struggle in every battle even WITH his strategy
when faced AGAINST lelouch who now leads the enemy army, they tear his army to pieces
he needs to resort to blowing up a volcano at them just to slow them down (they still manage to sink his ship, free the hostages, and almost kill him)
guess Lelouch aint all that good of a leader after all

plus, "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" is a long honored lasting way of war
not like they could know what shnizel is planning, so to THEM he wasnt even a problem (he seemed like the SANE one)
but they DID know what Lelouch is planning (trying to take oever the world)

and what exactly do you mean "allowed" the betrayal to happen ?

Lelouch didn't just slow them down, he destroyed more than half of their fighting force. Had it not been for Schneizel's Fleija's Lelouch would've won comfortably. Even Schneizel who is a master tactician believed the BKs were done for... Just because Xingke and a few others refused to accept reality and launched a last ditch effort at rescuing the hostages doesn't mean the Bks were in any position to win the battle.

The Volcano trick was brilliant, and the BKs fell into that trap like the fucking idiots that they are.

[morbosfist]

Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness

are you under the assumption shnizel wants to die ?
because Lelouch at that point, doesn't care all that much

Schenizel is willing to die, even if he doesn't plan for it. If push came to shove, he'd tell Anya to detonate. He probably ordered her to do just that at any sign of treachery.

[bladeofdarkness]

Originally Posted by Revolutionist

The Volcano trick was brilliant, and the BKs fell into that trap like the fucking idiots that they are.

not really brilliant, just completely unpredictable for simple logic
when you remember that the entire reason britannia invaded japan was to get control of the sakuradite supply, then you kinda have to see why the black knights could not see it coming
after all, when Lelouch blew it up, he not only demonstrated that he could care less about killing alot of his own troops (as Xing-ke points out)
but that he also cant care less about destroying the very thing that britannia wanted to get in the first place

its like burning down the house so you can have an advantage while fighting over the ashes

and the flejia's shnizel fired = the volcano Lelouch triggered
saying "Had it not been for Schneizel's Fleija's Lelouch would've won comfortably" is basiclly the same as saying "had it not been for the volcano bit the OOBK would have won easily"
at first they didnt use the flejia in favor of more conventional combat tactics (because lelouch is the kind of ass who hides behind women and children), and when Lelouch saw that he is getting his conventional ass kicked he switched to non-conventional
at that point, why would the other side not be allowed to use unconventional tactics as well ?
or is the use of non conventional tactics and weapons only fair game when Lelouch uses it ?
by the time Lelouch took over the damocles, the OOBK were winning the battle, since most of lelouch's forces were battered and leaderless while the black knights were already back in attack position (thats when lelouch uses the flejia)
there are a LOT more red dots on that map then there are blue by the time the flejia is fired

[morbosfist]

That doesn't prove they were winning, only that they had numerical superiority at the time. When Lelouch wins, there are a lot of his troops on the battlefield. At best they had a stalemate with the aces gone.

[Revolutionist]

The Gareths were wiping the floor with the regular black knight grunts, and let's be honest here the BKs were able to break through Lelouch's front line only because they had Kallen (who could break through just on her own), Xingke, and Todou all pushing and concentrated on one point. Lelouch only had Suzaku as his ace.

If the battle depended on just grunts Lelouch had the clear advantage. He had the professional soldiers while the BKs had resistance fighters, i.e random joes off the street plus the odd solider. And while the BKs may have been ideologically motivated, nothing compares to Geass'd soldiers who wouldn't give ground even under heavy casualties...That resolve alone is enough to win a battle.

[Zetsubou Bunny]

Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness

and who would be to blame for that ?
i'll give you a hint
his name starts with an L

Suzaku.

[morbosfist]

Originally Posted by Revolutionist

The Gareths were wiping the floor with the regular black knight grunts, and let's be honest here the BKs were able to break through Lelouch's front line only because they had Kallen (who could break through just on her own), Xingke, and Todou all pushing and concentrated on one point. Lelouch only had Suzaku as his ace.

If the battle depended on just grunts Lelouch had the clear advantage. He had the professional soldiers while the BKs had resistance fighters, i.e random joes off the street plus the odd solider. And while the BKs may have been ideologically motivated, nothing compares to Geass'd soldiers who wouldn't give ground even under heavy casualties...That resolve alone is enough to win a battle.

Hell hath frozen over, for we actually agree.

Technically Xingke was still in the air, but he would have gotten himself killed in his half-dead state with a half-broken Knightmare. Chiba at least stopped Tohdoh from stupidly throwing his life away.

But anyway, exactly this. Even if we count numerical superiority on the Black Knights, the Britannians were a lot better equipped and trained, not to mention inhumanly motivated. In a normal battle they'd have broken the Black Knights eventually.