[Game] Umineko no Naku Koro ni Chiru - Ep. 7 Requiem of the golden witch

[zorahk]

You guys are ridiculous...
"just" 1 billion yen? That's over 11 million usd.

[TehChron]

Originally Posted by Yopee

Yea, Bern seemed to not be in pain or any sort of agony when saying her red. She just had that trollish smiley face when she was interrupted by Ange so I feel like rather than the red being completely false (like the two above from ep4), it's more of a context thing.

Well a better way to look at it is even if Bern's red was complete and finished as "This is all truth.", I'm sure I would still question it.

Too bad there was no gold truth in this episode. Would have liked to understand it a bit more.

As a certain archaeologist once said, "If you're looking for truth, Nordlinger's(? memory sucks) Philosophy class is right down the hall."

[Judoh]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

He doesn't say anything, but the way he mentions the gold truth in conjunction with "illusions" strongly makes me thing that the "gold truth" is nothing but a lie.

If Kinzo is "the man of Illusions". And Kinzo's Illusion is that he is used to make people beleive Kinzo was alive in 1986. Than how is "the Gold truth is a lie" true if the Gold truth didn't hide anything about Kinzo?

[Nero Allelujah]

Although this may seem obvious, if the gold truth was a COMPLETE lie, then it couldn't really have been used in any of the red/blue truths confrontations. There would be no reason to it.

I still believe it to be the human, subjective truth. Battler knows what Kinzo looks like, and if he was dead, he could guarantee it. Although this would go against the whole "He's not the detective, so it could be a falsehood"

In the context of how Will described it. If the observers all believed that's what happened, then their subjective truth would be an illusion.

[Jan-Poo]

Originally Posted by Judoh

If Kinzo is "the man of Illusions". And Kinzo's Illusion is that he is used to make people beleive Kinzo was alive in 1986. Than how is "the Gold truth is a lie" true if the Gold truth didn't hide anything about Kinzo?

Have you wondered why Battler couldn't simply say that "Kinzo is dead"?
Why that roundabout way? I mean... why he had to talk about "presenting a corpse", rather than talking about the fact of his death?


Well I know why. The corpse that was found has never been Kinzo's corpse. I have practically no doubt about that at this point.

In other words, the "Kinzo's corpse" is the lie. Battler understood that and made us of it for his own advantage.

[Nero Allelujah]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

Have you wondered why Battler couldn't simply say that "Kinzo is dead"?
Why that roundabout way? I mean... why he had to talk about "presenting a corpse", rather than talking about the fact of his death?


Well I know why. The corpse that was found has never been Kinzo's corpse. I have practically no doubt about that at this point.

In other words, the "Kinzo's corpse" is the lie. Battler understood that and made us of it for his own advantage.

I see, I can understand where you're going with this. This proves that the gold truth is subjective, and therefore could be a lie. It goes in accord with Knox's 9th, as that is the interpretation of the observer at hand, and since he's not the detective, then he's allowed to be mistaken. Furthermore, since our detective in EP5, Erika, did not look at the real corpse or the fake corpse, then she cannot deny this either.

[Cao Ni Ma]

Regarding the unidentified corpses, all of their identities are guaranteed. Therefore, no body double tricks exist!

If it wasn't Kinzo then who was it? Beatrice 2?

[Poetic Justice]

Alright just finished it. Extremely disappointing after a solid start with the explanation about the ww2 gold. When the game got to the ShannonxBattler reveal it just turned very bizzare. I mean it was so out of the blue, Was there any foreshadowing to this?

Ya know i'm reminded of higurashi and that part where keiichi acted like a jerk to mion and instigated the events of the entire episode. That made a lot of sense at that time because right when it had happened i could say, Wow that's a real jerk thing to do. There was really not much to indicate this scenario that i could see. And the whole thing about Beatrice/Claire/Yagsu whoever the hell it is absorbing shannons love was awful.

I remember in one of the earlier parts where it was said that love could not be nurtured without two people nurturing it, But how could someone who was never a part of that love nurture it? It's really confusing to me.

I think ryukishi's just dragging it out unnecessarily now, He had a great chance to wrap up the story in this episode because i know we sure as hell aren't going to get any real answers to most of the closed room murder mysteries. It's happened before with higurashi where he didn't bother to explain a lot of the details.

And frankly the whole "oppressive situation in the end where someone badass shows up to save the show" shtick is getting old, Real old.

And was i the only one who thought Will looked a lot like simone from TTGL?

[loctar87]

Originally Posted by Cao Ni Ma

Regarding the unidentified corpses, all of their identities are guaranteed. Therefore, no body double tricks exist!

If it wasn't Kinzo then who was it? Beatrice 2?

Well, you can call something that's not a corpse a corpse. It's not totally impossible it's a doll or something.

I believe it's Kinzo, but you can't deny it with that red truth alone.

[Nero Allelujah]

Originally Posted by Cao Ni Ma

Regarding the unidentified corpses, all of their identities are guaranteed. Therefore, no body double tricks exist!

If it wasn't Kinzo then who was it? Beatrice 2?

It may be that their identities are guaranteed, but we readers were never shown the corpse, no details, no nothing, therefore our own interpretation of the truth may be used. Besides, this basically only applies to EP1, where it was actually used.

[Vylen]

Originally Posted by Poetic Justice

Alright just finished it. Extremely disappointing after a solid start with the explanation about the ww2 gold. When the game got to the ShannonxBattler reveal it just turned very bizzare. I mean it was so out of the blue, Was there any foreshadowing to this?

Foreshadowing? Yea... wasn't there?

In the question arcs Shannon remembered the line Battler said and shared it with the cousins. And when Battler found out about Shannon+George via Jessica on the beach, Battler says to himself that Shannon may have been his first love - although he says it a rather silly way; can't quite remember how.

[Cao Ni Ma]

Originally Posted by Nero Allelujah

It may be that their identities are guaranteed, but we readers were never shown the corpse, no details, no nothing, therefore our own interpretation of the truth may be used. Besides, this basically only applies to EP1, where it was actually used.

So we dont trust any of the people that witness the corpse during episode one? Then why should we trust anything at all? I mean, we as readers never got to see any of the corpses.

[loctar87]

Originally Posted by Poetic Justice

Alright just finished it. Extremely disappointing after a solid start with the explanation about the ww2 gold. When the game got to the ShannonxBattler reveal it just turned very bizzare. I mean it was so out of the blue, Was there any foreshadowing to this?

Yes, there was foreshadowing of this. Shannon told everyone the "white horse" quote in ep1. I believe Battler mentions it in passing once or twice too.

From the rest of your post, it sounds like you don't know who the culprit is. By this point, you should be able to reason it out. Remember:

Spoiler for Ep6 Ending:

Including Erika, There are 17 people.

[Poetic Justice]

Originally Posted by Vylen

Foreshadowing? Yea... wasn't there?

In the question arcs Shannon remembered the line Battler said and shared it with the cousins. And when Battler found out about Shannon+George via Jessica on the beach, Battler says to himself that Shannon may have been his first love - although he says it a rather silly way; can't quite remember how.

Ok but i still find it stupid that he said this when he was 12 years old and shannon took it seriously, I mean WTF.

[luckyssol]

Originally Posted by loctar87

Shannon told everyone the "white horse" quote in ep1.

What? You mean episode 3. Follow this link for quote.

[loctar87]

Originally Posted by Ssol

What? You mean episode 3. Follow this link for quote.

Ah, that might be it. I remember it was a beach scene, and my mind linked that to ep1. I guess it was ep3.

[Nero Allelujah]

Originally Posted by Cao Ni Ma

So we dont trust any of the people that witness the corpse during episode one? Then why should we trust anything at all? I mean, we as readers never got to see any of the corpses.

If we're to treat this as a mystery like it has been stated in EP7, then we can't fully trust any observations made by anyone but the detective.

Besides Hideyoshi looked at all of the bodies including Shannon's, and said they were dead. So how can we trust observers' opinions?

[Poetic Justice]

Originally Posted by loctar87

From the rest of your post, it sounds like you don't know who the culprit is. By this point, you should be able to reason it out. Remember:

Spoiler for Ep6 Ending:

Including Erika, There are 17 people.

Huh, Who is it?

[Teapot]

Stop playing dumb with us, culptrit-san.

[Cao Ni Ma]

Originally Posted by Nero Allelujah

If we're to treat this as a mystery like it has been stated in EP7, then we can't fully trust any observations made by anyone but the detective.

There is no explicit detective mentioned in any of the games but Erika in EP5, we assume Battler is do to how the narrative is structured. He sees the corpse in EP1, right after he notices Maria staring at the stake in the head, he then proceeds to mention details about the corpse. (is someone else providing a narration here? Is Battler a credible witness?)

So it comes down to this, its a corpse or it isnt. If its a corpse then it identity is guaranteed do to the red. If it isn't a corpse then what is it? It can't be alive with a stake there, is it a doll? A facsimile or something?