Captain America: Civil War

[Tormenk]

Just watched it. Definitely worth the watch. Among the new additions to the cast, Spiderman had the flashier scenes but Black Panther shined quietly in his own way. His scene with Zemo established genuine empathy between their selves attempting vengeance on their dead kin.

Tony's personal reasons just seem to overtake his logical reasons for agreeing to the Accord. Not having Pepper by his side and being guilt-tripped just seemed like a bigger push on his end than taking control of a bad situation forced upon the Avengers. Not to say Steve was blameless, since his drive to keep Bucky safe did compromise his position rather badly though I have to admit there was no way he could have talked his way out through this in any case.

[risingstar3110]

I think the overall of this one is even better than the 1st Avenger (mostly due to better end fight scene) , so probably the best Marvel film for me

When I think about it, the 1st Avenger actually had more funny moment, which one of the reason why it's so great. But overall story, pace, and like I said, the final fighting scene... Civil Wary is superior. The villain motive is interesting (slightly weak through). I think a bit more character development would have done him some good.

But the major change in this arc compared to the Civil War comic (you know which one) is probably the best decision Marvel has made, because it benefited the tone of Marvel movie franchise much more

[solidvanz]

Done watching Civil War on the afternoon session. The best Captain America movie alongside The Winter Soldier and the best Avengers movie after the first Avengers movie. Best highlights in this movie is the airport battle and Cap & Bucky Vs Iron Man.

I'm totally glad to see the two mid-credits after the movie ended which were rarely shown in my local cinema.

[charles883]

I just wish to see all those UNGRATEFUL people(especially mother who blamed avengers for her son death and Bureaucrat behind Accord and Ross ) goanna EAT THEIR OWN WORD and BITE THEIR ASS when THANOS crashing down on Earth

Also I bet there STILL UNGRATEFUL BASTARD who STILL BLAME AVENGERS for THANOS invasion until (I like to see) T Challa gives EPIC REASON YOU SUCKS SPEECH in front of the some of UN council on those UNGRATEFUL PEOPLE. I like to see the accord finally abolish and most likely reestablish SHIELD for new oversight for Newly reunited Avengers

[DOmus]

Good movie, but personally, it didn't sell the concept of a "civil war" to me. Action wise it was good, but in the aspect of two ideologies clashing, I felt as it was almost none of that, just a lot of misunderstandings and another lot of revenge feelings. At the end, instead of thinking about tramcap or teamironman, it was old friends or new friends.

[MrTerrorist]

The Russo brothers on Screen Junkies.

[xeviouses]

Just saw it.

This is what Avengers 2 should have been, man this movie was awesome.

Especially loved Black Panther (triple kick!), Spider-man (actual quips!) and Ant-man (paul rudd humor).

Really liked the toned down scale though, ideologies, morality and vengeance are central themes.

Can't wait for Spidy: Homecoming and Doctor Strange.

let's see that accord save them when Thanos comes knocking

[Anh_Minh]

I have a lot of sympathy for Iron Man's position. The need for accountability.

Or are countries supposed to just renounce their sovereignties when the Avengers come calling? Accept that whatever the Avengers do is worth the risk, the collateral damage?

Except... Sokovia was Iron Man's fault in a way that had nothing to do with the collateral damage. He created Ultron. He and Banner. They never answered for that.

I have rather less sympathy for Cap's. People are innocent because he says they are? They don't get their day in court?


Still, it was a very nice movie. The action was great.

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

I have rather less sympathy for Cap's. People are innocent because he says they are? They don't get their day in court?

You are missing the argument. CAp WANT Bucky to have his day in court, but the UN already gave the order to kill on sight. The only reason he refused to hand Bucky over was because Bucky wasn't going to get a fair trial or any trial at all, he was already marked for death. That's why if you actually believe in due process, you should support Cap. Cap's side is the only side who cared about giving Bucky his day in court.

[bakAnki]

Great and enjoyable movie. It was a great start for Phase Three, though at one point you can't help but feel this is not Cap's movie. Have been thinking from the start that the "Civil War" subtitle, like Weekend at Age of Ultron, is an exaggeration for marketing gimmick and it really is now I've watched it. While it's there, but the theme only play for around half of the movie (still nicely done because you can feel that there's no absolute right or wrong there regarding the Sokovia Accord) and for the rest it's more like personal vengeance. As for Zemo's plan, effective as it was, it relied too much on luck. What would he do if Tony wasn't coming with Cap and Bucky?

The character interactions were great too. Tony and Cap aren't on the same level of closeness like on their comic counterpart, despite now Cap has called him with his first name But we get to see more Cap & Bucky and Tony & Rhodey moments. Now we can see that despite how he usually act, Tony really is care for Rhodey and see him as his best friend, even more than Cap. I smiled during "Give me back my Rhodey!", and then hit by feels truck when Rhodey feel and at the end of the movie, though the latter got interrupted by Stank Lee, lol.

Action and fight scene were undeniably fantastic. I laughed at the total number of characters on the airport scene when I watched the trailer, but airport fight turned out to be awesome. Not that other fights were bad because it's definitely not, though I feel like the CGI could look pretty bad on some parts, especially during Bucky & Black Phanter chase. Ah and speaking of the chase, maybe I played School Idol Festival too much back then, because I couldn't help but play "Cutie Panther" during that scene. The lyrics truly fit the scene, despite not in the same context! Tsukamaechau! Doko ni iru no? Muri yo muri yo doko ni itatte muri yo

Oh yeah, is it just coincidence when Falcon made that comment after Steve trusted Bucky again after mom talks? It feels like it made fun of BvS's infamous Martha

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by bakAnki

Great and enjoyable movie. It was a great start for Phase Three, though at one point you can't help but feel this is not Cap's movie. Have been thinking from the start that the "Civil War" subtitle, like Weekend at Age of Ultron, is an exaggeration for marketing gimmick and it really is now I've watched it. While it's there, but the theme only play for around half of the movie (still nicely done because you can feel that there's no absolute right or wrong there regarding the Sokovia Accord) and for the rest it's more like personal vengeance. As for Zemo's plan, effective as it was, it relied too much on luck. What would he do if Tony wasn't coming with Cap and Bucky?

Post the video on Youtube?

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

You are missing the argument. CAp WANT Bucky to have his day in court, but the UN already gave the order to kill on sight. The only reason he refused to hand Bucky over was because Bucky wasn't going to get a fair trial or any trial at all, he was already marked for death. That's why if you actually believe in due process, you should support Cap. Cap's side is the only side who cared about giving Bucky his day in court.

Cap's only concern was protecting Bucky. And his outlaw Avengers. That's all he's shown.

They could have negotiated Bucky's surrender. I mean, they already had a "shoot on sight" order the first time they apprehended him, but they let him surrender. And got his side of the story out.

And it's not just about Bucky. Hawkeye whining about being treated like a criminal right after he committed crimes? I could have understood complaints about not having a lawyer, or the inhumane conditions of their detention, but he really thought he should be allowed to go free? And so did Steve, since he broke everyone out.

And Ant-Man. Sure, he escaped all legal consequences from his own movie. Thanks in part to his own ex's husband. But now, he's a criminal on the run. Didn't he want to stop doing that shit, for his daughter's sake?


I'm not quite sure what to make of Black Panther. On the one hand, I like the wiser, calmer man of the end of the movie. On the other, there's an element of "Oh, since he didn't kill my dad, just Tony Stark's (and a lot of other people's dads and various relatives), he's alright."

[B214]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

Hawkeye whining about being treated like a criminal right after he committed crimes? I could have understood complaints about not having a lawyer, or the inhumane conditions of their detention, but he really thought he should be allowed to go free?

Hawkeye wasn't really whining about being treated as a criminal as the main point, he's complaining about how the accord is treating them as criminals. What Clint was trying saying to say to Tony is "This is the true form of the Accord you sign. Go against it regardless of good or bad reasons, they'll still sent you to jail without any chance of trial on court".

In the end that's the true form of the Accord it's to bind all the heroes, forcefully control them and without treating them as humans. That's also why Tony ignore Thunderbolt Ross' call in the end because he seen through what the accord is too and refuse to be control like a puppet.

[quigonkenny]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

I have a lot of sympathy for Iron Man's position. The need for accountability.

Or are countries supposed to just renounce their sovereignties when the Avengers come calling? Accept that whatever the Avengers do is worth the risk, the collateral damage?

That's not how national sovereignty works. A UN bureaucracy-backed "superhero" force would be a much larger danger to individual nations' sovereignties because no matter what they would actually be doing, it would carry an apparent legitimacy that a non-aligned group of individuals would never be able to match. If I'm a nation who feels they have been wronged by an independent Avengers, I can take it up in a legal manner through my own country's laws (and possibly international law, depending on the incident in question). I might not be able to do much successfully besides turn the Avengers into criminals and ban them from my country, if they don't want to play along, but at least there is that. But if I'm wronged, as a nation, by a UN-backed Avengers, there are exactly two things I can do about it other than go to war with the rest of the world: jack and shit.

As VCV said, the Accords are only going to be successful at one thing: negating responsibility. Anything an Accords Avengers does will not be their responsibility, it will the responsibility of a faceless, effectively untouchable bureaucracy, which basically means there will be no responsibility. An independent Avengers has to deal with responsibility themselves—or avoid it, if they decide to—and deal with the results of how they handle it.

[aohige]

Arrogant mortals wishing to place a thunder god under their commands.

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by quigonkenny

That's not how national sovereignty works. A UN bureaucracy-backed "superhero" force would be a much larger danger to individual nations' sovereignties because no matter what they would actually be doing, it would carry an apparent legitimacy that a non-aligned group of individuals would never be able to match. If I'm a nation who feels they have been wronged by an independent Avengers, I can take it up in a legal manner through my own country's laws (and possibly international law, depending on the incident in question). I might not be able to do much successfully besides turn the Avengers into criminals and ban them from my country, if they don't want to play along, but at least there is that. But if I'm wronged, as a nation, by a UN-backed Avengers, there are exactly two things I can do about it other than go to war with the rest of the world: jack and shit.

All of that would depend on how the Accords are worded. And considering how much power the UN has to impose anything (ie, not a lot), my interpretation is that the Accords provide channels and procedures for the Avengers to ask for permission to intervene, and explain why that's necessary. Those they would ask would, of course, be the countries in question. (Remember that 100+ countries agreed on those Accords, including Wakanda. It wasn't to sign away their own sovereignty, but to affirm it.)

As VCV said, the Accords are only going to be successful at one thing: negating responsibility. Anything an Accords Avengers does will not be their responsibility, it will the responsibility of a faceless, effectively untouchable bureaucracy, which basically means there will be no responsibility. An independent Avengers has to deal with responsibility themselves—or avoid it, if they decide to—and deal with the results of how they handle it.

Yeah, Cap said that, and I think it's bullshit. Ultimately, the Accords are just another set of rules that the Avengers can choose to ignore, if the situation warrants it. And for them, what's one more? If, say, they have credible intel someone's building a Cosmic Cube in Latveria, and Doom tells them "We're good. Stay out of my country.", even if Doom signed the Accords, they can always go anyway. Like before. The difference is that afterwards, they may need to explain themselves. Possibly in front of a tribunal. Is that so bad? Is it not necessary?

The way I see it, Cap wants his "personal responsibility" to be limited to maybe feeling bad about what he's done. He doesn't want to answer to anyone. His position is predicated on the Avengers being right, always being right, and telling nay-sayers to suck it. It's similar to early Iron Man 2 insouciance.

Now, do I think politicians and bureaucrats - the people who would authorize, or not, Avengers intervention - would always be right? Over Captain America? Of course not. But those mistakes would be their mistakes to make. It's the difference between damaging your own car, and totaling somebody else's. That you borrowed. Without asking.

[HasuMasu]

I trust Captain America more than the world's aristocracy, but that's only because we, as an audience, know he's the hero of a fictional work.

[Tactics]

Originally Posted by bakAnki

As for Zemo's plan, effective as it was, it relied too much on luck. What would he do if Tony wasn't coming with Cap and Bucky?

Well, he can make a phone call / signal transmission and said, "Hello, Iron Man, I knew your parents killer, can you come to Siberia? I'll give you the coordinates."
Not to mention there's still a number of super soldier inside, he can just release them to buy time until Tony arrives and help them, only to realize his parents killer were so close to him.

[risingstar3110]

The movie already made 261 mil oversea during the first weekend and still does not include China.

In comparing to BvS (for context) it was a bit strange trend. Civil War did around 10% better than BvS in Western countries, but 30-70% better in non Western country (Japan, Mexico. South Korea, etc). My guess is because Civil War actually have a much bigger draw to new audiences (in non-Western nations where Comic Book heroes were less popular until recent) than the established fan base.

Probably because to the newer audiences, recent superhero movies are the first time they are told about superhero origins. And all Marvel individual movies helped to relate to the Avengers more than BvS case

Originally Posted by bakAnki

As for Zemo's plan, effective as it was, it relied too much on luck. What would he do if Tony wasn't coming with Cap and Bucky?

Remember the phone call he got to the hotel service to come up and service the dead psychiatrist's room? He was expecting the Avengers intelligence to pick it up and realise his plan. Which will enforce Stark position as he is in charge of that case.

The only exception is: what if Stark was seriously injured in previous fight. So yeah that would have to depend on some luck. But he always can record the video and forward it to Stark which will result in something similar

[Anh_Minh]

The real question is why that video exists at all. And how he knew about it.

[risingstar3110]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

The real question is why that video exists at all. And how he knew about it.

Yeah that is a thing too. We know his motive and that he is smart, capable, evil...

But how does he have all of audience knowledge about: a) Winter Soldier is Cap close friend, b) Cap will fight Iron Man to protect his friend, c) Iron Man will fight Cap to take revenge, d) etc... Even amongst the Avenger, Stark included, don't understand the deep friendship between Cap and Bucky. How can the bad guy know.

So I guess they were just tricking us into mixing between what we know, and what the bad guys know. A case of "what do you means the bad guy does not know, it was just showed on scene 10 mins ago"