Mobile Suit Gundam: The Origin (2014)

[Kanon]

This episode made me feel for Sayla more than ever. Poor girl.

I had forgotten just how many people the colony drop killed. Half of the world's population. Holy crap.

[Obelisk ze Tormentor]

YouTube

https://youtu.be/zTtlbR-eRhM

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[KPSJ]

I still hope this leads to a full on "one year war remake"

[Haak]

Finally watched Episode 5.

Absolutely amazing as always but I felt like they could've given more focus on the impact on Operation British. Don't get me wrong, the show did give a lot of focus on it, but given the sheer scale of the casualties involved, it would've been nice to see an actual POV from the Federation on Earth (we only get Zeon POV really). A real sombre moment among the survivors/politicians to reflect on the sheer cataclysmic scale of their loss. I mean, just imagine how much 9/11 affected US foreign (and domestic) policy and that was only a tiny fraction compared to this.

The Federation must have been utterly appalled, not just at the casualties but at the fact that Zeon leaders weren't backing down. At this point Zeon lost all credibility. Would've been nice to have more of a POV into a Zeon supporters mindset and how they would come to terms with the colony drop. Have a scene devoted to them being barraged with fake news and Putin-esque propaganda and this show would've been an instant 10/10.

I was a little bit peeved when Sayla said the Federation and Zeon were all the same. I appreciate that at the time she was under attack by thugs supporting the Federation but that just reeked of false equivalence. That said, I still felt extraordinarily sympathetic to Sayla. She's not lead an easy life but she's become an admirable woman nonetheless. It's such a damn same she gets shafted storywise after the One Year War.

I was disappointed in Dolze. The fact that he played an instrumental part in Operation British is utterly unforgivable but it's made worse when he's able to go back to a family and pretend he's not the monster he is. He does show some self awareness, but I guess the guilt is just too much for him and he tries to justify the murder of billions of people in the most pathetic way possible. It's a much more interesting take on a genocidal monster than the one dimensional moustache twirling monsters you usually see though. i actually liked the guy before this episode.

I also enjoyed the brief segway into Amuro's life in the prelude. I was surprised by how much of a gutsy punk Kai Shiden was back in those days. I always interpreted him as some privileged snivelly narcissist.

Char didn't have much screentime this episode. I thought the previous episode didn't have much focus on him either compared to the others so it looks like this Loum Arc has shifted quite a bit in focus. I'm also hoping this means a One Year War remake.

[Psyco Diver]

Episode 6 is up in Hulu, didn't realize that it came out like a week ago. Finally get the action we have been waiting for plus allot of good back story and depth to allot of the Zeon characters

[Infinite Zenith]

The finale is finally out. Been a hell of a long wait, but it was definitely worth it: the combat sequences were amazing, and the human aspects of the war were explored in a satisfactory manner. There's also a pleasant surprise at the end.

[Obelisk ze Tormentor]

Beautiful ending and excellent beginning for the MSG saga. There are so many things I love about this last episode from showing how Tianem's anxiety failed him to capture the Zeon and seized victory (colony even though his fleet is fully capable of it) to the famous Revil's speech that encouraged the Earth Federation to fight further and not giving up (which, ironically, prolonged the terrible One Year War even more). All the big events that we only heard as background information in the original MSG are shown in their full glory and that post-credit fanservice is like a cherry on top of a magnificent cake. The UC fan in me is very pleased.

All in all, Gundam: The Origin is an excellent show. It's not without its flaws (like how some characters "overacting" to things), but the good far surpassed the bad. It now has joined the ranks of Gundam 0080: War in the Pocket and Gundam Unicorn as the trinity of "Best Gundam Entries" in the franchise for me.

[foxbox360]

was the surprise Char final speech?

[Obelisk ze Tormentor]

Originally Posted by foxbox360

was the surprise Char final speech?

Nope. The surprise is a certain familiar thing from MSG after the credits.

Btw, I also love how this episode shows & explores M'Quve's character a bit more. He's not just a connoisseur of antiques (like what's seen in MSG), but also an expert historian. In fact, it's his love of Earth's history that Kycilia used to motivate him to be the commander of Zeon's Earth troops and occupation army.

[foxbox360]

Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor

Nope. The surprise is a certain familiar thing from MSG after the credits.

Btw, I also love how this episode shows & explores M'Quve's character a bit more. He's not just a connoisseur of antiques (like what's seen in MSG), but also an expert historian. In fact, it's his love of Earth's history that Kycilia used to motivate him to be the commander of Zeon's Earth troops and occupation army.

I must of missed it, care to explaned this familiar thing, please?

[Obelisk ze Tormentor]

Originally Posted by foxbox360

I must of missed it, care to explaned this familiar thing, please?

Nothing big, just....

Spoiler for Post-Credit callback to MSG:

White Base, the 19-yo Bright and its original crew before some of them are killed and replaced by Amuro & friends.

[Haak]

That was a bad finale in all honesty.

Sorry but as much I wanted to like it, I don't think there's any way in getting round the fact that the entirety of this episode was spent on a build up and framing of Revil's speech. The build up I have no issue with, but the framing took a really questionable stance on this whole thing. Are we supposed to believe that peace talks would've been a good thing after Zeon's Operation British? We're talking about a colony drop that killed billions. Not thousands, not millions but billions. And they gassed their own supposed race to do it too. How do you negotiate with that? Who's to say that a piece of paper would stop them from doing it again and right on the heels of another Zeon military victory? Revil was right, it is basically surrendering. The narrative seems to treat what Revil did as a bad thing but he took a stand. Yes war is bad, but when faced against such a horrific enemy are you really so much of a pacifist that you can just stand back and appease people who will kill billions of people without any impunity? Even as a staunch left winger myself, I have a hard time understanding this.

Given the Hitler reference in the Episode, are we also supposed to believe that the writer thinks the Allies were supposed to appease Hitler? Does the writer think that both the Allies and the Axis were equally bad? That's awfully convenient when it comes to considering Japan's role in the war but it's certainly not one I can agree with.

And then Degwin has the audacity to declare the Federation as back stabbing warmongers? He did nothing but sit on his fat arse whilst his son committed cataclysmic genocide and refuses to raise any kind of hand against him. The hypocrisy is astounding and if the Episode framed it as such then I'd consider it great writing but it didn't: it was played completely straight. And if the Episode framed Revil in a shrewder light then I could've enjoyed this episode a lot more. The Episode just implies that Revil did exactly what Kycilia wanted but if Revil was framed better, he would've also understood what was happening and that he was being played by warmongers and could've told the public exactly that but most importantly argue for war anyway because sometimes you need to take a stand (and/or he could've had the foresight to know that Zeon will be hoisted by their own petard). That kind of framing would've been way better but instead the take away message was "war will continue because humanity is still foolish".

The episode also suffered from an overuse of "moustache-twirling". We had to be treated with scenes like those Fed Generals smirking on how a cleaner warfare is more to their liking. Is that supposed to be a bad thing? What exactly is the writer saying here? Historically speaking the people who introduced these kind of rules were people who understood the horrors of warfare and sought to minimise it. It seems to me that this writer loves to take a conspiratorial view on everything and believes all things to be run by "moustache twirlers" and I don't see that as an accurate depiction of reality, especially for someone like myself who is a liberal user of Hanlon's Razor.

What a shame that the finale had to end on such a terrible note. I was ready to declare this series one of my all time favourites but this Episode just left such a sour taste in my mouth that I don't know how to judge it anymore.

[Obelisk ze Tormentor]

Originally Posted by Haak

That was a bad finale in all honesty.

Sorry but as much I wanted to like it, I don't think there's any way in getting round the fact that the entirety of this episode was spent on a build up and framing of Revil's speech. The build up I have no issue with, but the framing took a really questionable stance on this whole thing. Are we supposed to believe that peace talks would've been a good thing after Zeon's Operation British? We're talking about a colony drop that killed billions. Not thousands, not millions but billions. And they gassed their own supposed race to do it too. How do you negotiate with that? Who's to say that a piece of paper would stop them from doing it again and right on the heels of another Zeon military victory?

Based on supplementary materials around the whole event, IIRC the treaty is about banning “colony drops” and in return, giving Zeon some form of independence and even some sweet deals about granting some spots on Earth for their bases or even towns (Zeon towns like the one where Zinnerman’s family were murdered by the Feds). So, it’s kind of a decent deal if both parties follow through. After the speech, Zeon themselves put so much resources on the development of even more advanced MSs & MAs instead of WMDs so that the destruction can be more controlled and precise without hurting too many civilians showing that a large part of Zeon really didn’t want to repeat such cataclysmic event during the rest of the OYW.

Originally Posted by Haak

Revil was right, it is basically surrendering. The narrative seems to treat what Revil did as a bad thing but he took a stand. Yes war is bad, but when faced against such a horrific enemy are you really so much of a pacifist that you can just stand back and appease people who will kill billions of people without any impunity? Even as a staunch left winger myself, I have a hard time understanding this.

Not really. Revil’s speech was considered heroic in the older supplementary materials and Origin didn't actually negate the sentiment, but portrayed it from more perspectives (kinda like the Zeon Deikun's case). In this episode, Revil was never depicted as someone who is evil or a warmonger. He’s pretty much established as one of the nicest and wisest guys from the Federation in the franchise. He was pretty much right in doing his speech to prevent Zeon from gaining far more power on Earth. Ironically, his desire to keep on fighting the OYW is aligned with some Zeon members (Char included) who wanted to prolong the war in the first place be it due to hubris, overconfidence or some secret agendas.

Here’s a video about Pre-Origin backstory about the Antarctic Treaty:

YouTube

https://youtu.be/rvabEOgtCzo

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Originally Posted by Haak

Given the Hitler reference in the Episode, are we also supposed to believe that the writer thinks the Allies were supposed to appease Hitler? Does the writer think that both the Allies and the Axis were equally bad? That's awfully convenient when it comes to considering Japan's role in the war but it's certainly not one I can agree with.

I don’t think this episode meant it that way. I mean, this whole episode actually painted Zeon in a more negative light than the other episodes in Origin except for “Operation British”-one. Gihren was compared to Hitler, Dozle has become unfazed with genocides, Garma had no consideration for the civilian lives even though they were right in front of him during the mop-up operation just to further his ranks and Degwin being stupid and doing one big blunder (more of that below). The Feds themselves can't really be compared to the WWII Allies. The Feds officials are a lot more douchy (more on that below).

Originally Posted by Haak

And then Degwin has the audacity to declare the Federation as back stabbing warmongers? He did nothing but sit on his fat arse whilst his son committed cataclysmic genocide and refuses to raise any kind of hand against him. The hypocrisy is astounding and if the Episode framed it as such then I'd consider it great writing but it didn't: it was played completely straight. And if the Episode framed Revil in a shrewder light then I could've enjoyed this episode a lot more. The Episode just implies that Revil did exactly what Kycilia wanted but if Revil was framed better, he would've also understood what was happening and that he was being played by warmongers and could've told the public exactly that but most importantly argue for war anyway because sometimes you need to take a stand (and/or he could've had the foresight to know that Zeon will be hoisted by their own petard). That kind of framing would've been way better but instead the take away message was "war will continue because humanity is still foolish".

Yes, it is hypocrisy at its finest and the episode also treat it that way. Degwin really wanted the war to stop due to him getting cold-feet to continue after witnessing the Colony Drop and the big slaughter in Loum. Looks like the fear clouded his better judgment a bit and caused him to quickly jump to conclusions thinking that Revil wanted exactly the same thing that he wanted: for the war to end peacefully. But it never crossed Degwin’s mind that the old guy that he was facing in the cell still had some fight in him when he arranged Revil’s escape. In the end, Degwin got one thing right about Revil: he was shocked by all the deaths in OYW and wanted the war to end soon (only not by peace treaty like Degwin thought). After being enraged by what Revil did with the treaty and convinced himself that Zeon can invade Earth and topple the EF, Degwin only changed his mind later on after Garma's death and finally reached out the EF for a peace talk again but before anything can be achieved, Degwin was eliminated by EF's WMD. All of it was set up by Gihren.

Originally Posted by Haak

The episode also suffered from an overuse of "moustache-twirling". We had to be treated with scenes like those Fed Generals smirking on how a cleaner warfare is more to their liking. Is that supposed to be a bad thing? What exactly is the writer saying here? Historically speaking the people who introduced these kind of rules were people who understood the horrors of warfare and sought to minimise it. It seems to me that this writer loves to take a conspiratorial view on everything and believes all things to be run by "moustache twirlers" and I don't see that as an accurate depiction of reality, especially for someone like myself who is a liberal user of Hanlon's Razor.

What a shame that the finale had to end on such a terrible note. I was ready to declare this series one of my all time favourites but this Episode just left such a sour taste in my mouth that I don't know how to judge it anymore.

You might not believe this, but there are a bunch of EF higher-ups who had some deals with Zeon members (eg. M’Quve who we saw in this episode) to fulfill their own selfish desires. It was established even far back in MSG TV. Some segment in the following video actually addressed the “corrupt/traitorous EF officials” issue. What Origin showed in this episode is strongly implied to be the similar kind of shady EF officials.

YouTube

https://youtu.be/w8DtvrGd63c

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[Haak]

TL;DR…

@ Obelisk ze Tormentor

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[Obelisk ze Tormentor]

Sorry for the late reply. I had to work.

Originally Posted by Haak

"We'll give you independence and even some of our own territory as long as you promise to stop killing us"

Sorry, but that sounds less like a deal and more like complete capitulation. The vids that you linked seem to say much the same thing.

You can't just give in to a side that killed billions of people in a colony drop. Appeasement isn't going to work.

Originally, it was actually more than just appeasement. Please note that before Revil’s speech, the Antarctic meeting was originally scheduled to discuss EF’s terms of surrender. So yes, the EF was actually going to surrender to Zeon (to some degree) in fear of more colonies and other massive objects being dropped on Earth. Before Revil’s speech, in the EF’s eyes, Zeon appeared as this powerful faction that can wipe out the EF whenever they want. Being forced to face something like that and after got hit by the Colony Drop and Loum’s massacre; it’s only natural that the EF wanted to surrender. Thankfully, Revil’s broadcasted speech gave away the actual reality of how limited Zeon’s resources truly were when compared to the EF. Revil encouraged the EF to fight on, and fight on the EF did, starting with pushing to change the Antarctic Treaty from EF’s terms of surrender to the signing of rules of war as follow (translation might not be entirely accurate, but you get the big idea):

• The use of nuclear, biological or chemical weapons is prohibited (and most probably include other kinds of WMDs).
• Dropping space colonies or large asteroids onto Earth is prohibited.
• All prisoners of war must be treated humanely (although forced labor may be legal).
• All neutral territories must be respected and combat operations in these regions are prohibited.

As for why both sides finally agreed to sign the treaty, Wiki, again, said it best:

Originally Posted by Gundam Wiki

In the Gundam Encyclopedia:"Gundam Officials", the editor, Yuka Minakawa, quoted the original author of Mobile Suit Gundam, Yoshiyuki Tomino, in the Antarctic Treaty section in page 532, that the Federation needed the treaty to be signed because:

• They had no effective way of defending themselves from colony drops, especially against the tactical advantage of Zeon mobile suits at the time.
• They knew Zeon's main weakness was the scarcity of mineral resources, and prolonging the war meant taking the lead in mass-production of ships and weapons, thus a long-term strategic advantage.
• They needed time to catch up with their own mobile suit development.

The same section also states the Principality of Zeon agreed to the treaty in light of the following factors:

• The continual use of weapons of mass-destruction were also dangerous to Zeon, as the Federation Forces could retaliate back with NBC strikes. The EFSF had enough nuclear warheads stored in Luna II to completely annihilate Side 3 (a few thousand according to Gundam Officials).
• The banning of weapons of mass destruction meant that conventional/mobile warfare would be the norm. With their mobile suits, Zeon would have the tactical advantage — they already outpaced the Earth Federation in MS development, having successfully deployed their Zakus in real combat (although the Federation engineers proposed their own mobile suit research project in U.C. 0078, the Project V didn't formally start until after the Battle of Loum, and the mass deployment of Federation mobile suits didn't appear until November, U.C. 0079).
• The treaty allowed Zeon to bring the battlefront down to the surface of Earth. Surface access was considered paramount because in a prolonged war scenario their raw material resources were insufficient (Zeon's national strength was only 1/30 compared to the Federation), and they soon after started various mining operations on Earth (the biggest being the M'Quve mining operations near Odessa). This is especially evident in Origin, where Revil's escape was actually orchestrated by the Zabis.

__________________________

Originally Posted by Haak

You know if a side gasses an entire colony then uses it to kill billions of people on Earth, I don't think it's a good idea to give that side the benefit of any doubt.

"Uh...yeah..sorry we killed billions of people. We won't apologise for it, or give any sort of reparations, but hey look at our cool mechs (that are capable of firing nuclear weapons)! You can totally trust us to not drop any colonies any more after we benefited tremendously from it! We'll even sign this bit of paper to prove it!"
If I were faced against a side that killed billions of people and gases their own race, then I don't think "They're developing newer precise weapons" is enough to make me trust that they wouldn't do it again.

In fact, I don't think anything would be enough to make me trust them again. Once you've killed that many people in a single strike, you're pretty much past the point no return.

You may say that but here’s the funny thing: Zeon never dropped a single colony for the rest of the OYW after the signing of Antarctic Treaty. So, when it comes to "not dropping colonies on Earth”, Zeon actually kept their end of the bargain until the very last second of OYW no matter how difficult the situation was for them during the last stretch of the war.

Also, without excusing the terrible things that Zeon did, I just want to remind everyone about these points:

1. The colony that Zeon gassed was the one that declared open hostility towards them. They weren’t even neutral at the time.
2. Zeon did not intentionally drop the colony to kill civilians on Earth. Their only target of the colony drop was Jaburo, EF's HQ which located in a remote area of South American Amazon River basin which is an ideal and perfect target when it comes to minimizing the civilian casualties.
3. The ones that caused the colony to veer off into densely-populated areas are actually Tianem’s fleet who were willing to do anything to save Jaburo, even sacrificing civilians.

Originally Posted by Haak

It's portrayed in pretty much every way except the way that mattered most. There's characters that listen to his speech and smile because it means more war, characters who are hypocritically angry at not getting what they wanted, and characters who are just sad that it means more war because "humanity hasn't learned". The last one was crucial because it came from a conversation between a future White Base member and her father and it was clearly meant to be a definitive "moral compass - take away message" moment.

There's never a single character who goes "Damn straight! Time to take a stand!" Only Revil himself and whilst he may not be portrayed as a warmonger, his principled stance in undermined by the fact that we're never given any indication on how much he realises he's being manipulated by warmongers. If the Episode was meant to portray it as heroic, it did a horrible job. You're not supposed to rely on supplementary material on something that crucial.

What I take away from the father-daughter interaction during the speech is that the father was commenting about wars in general. For all he knew during the time of Revil’s speech, the continuing of war means he and his family were going to see more colonies and asteroids being dropped on Earth and probably even bigger destruction and that certainly sucks. If I were in his shoes and I only know what he knows at the time, I'd complain too even if I was on Revil's side .

Also, Origin has never shy from viewing something from different perspectives. For example, Zeon Deikun who always portrayed as this great philosopher and political leader in the flashback of MSG and other side-materials. Those are like the POV of outsiders looking in. Origin took a different approach by viewing Deikun from the POVs of his wife and children thus portraying him more as a under-pressured husband and father. Same thing with Revil’s speech: many other supplementary materials has depicted the speech as something heroic and uplifting but Origin chose a different POV. Origin use the POV of people who were not sure, people who dread the prolonging of the war and people who were laughing inside due to the satisfaction they felt when their devious plan went smoothly (at the time). But all that doesn’t really undermine how right Revil was. I myself don’t think it’s a problem. It just adds more realism in an otherwise Braveheart-like moment. Could they have made it better? Hell yes. Is the final product insultingly bad? Hell no.

At the end of the day, does it matter whether or not Revil realizes the manipulation behind his escape when he independently got to the right conclusion and chose the right course of action at the end? I don’t think so.

Originally Posted by Haak

Yeah, but that's the problem: Are the Feds being more douchy meant to indicate that's where the WW2 comparisons end or are they meant to suggest the WW2 Allies were just as douchy?

Many people has made the comparison between Zeon and the Nazi (no matter how much of a broad stroke that was). But that doesn’t mean EF is automatically comparable to WWI Allies. Very few people ever compare the EF with WWII Allies because that was never the writers’ intention in the first place. Unlike Allies, there are many corrupt officers in the EF from bottom to top ranks. They were oppressive and abusive towards the colonies (unlike the Allies).

EF and Allies are so unlike each other to the point where you can even compare the EF with WWII Japan. Like the Imperial Japan, the EF did some horrible things to other nations (eg. Pearl Harbor & Colony-oppressing) and they paid the price wholesale later on (Colony Drop & Hiroshima-Nagasaki) to the point where they felt driven to the corner and about ready to surrender. Revil’s speech is the turning point where the EF is no longer comparable to Imperial Japan. EF is now the post-Pearl Harbor USA and Zeon is now post-Pearl Harbor Imperial Japan. It’s smart how MSG actually reverse the order of the conflict between Imperial Japan & USA and used it as a background story where Amuro & Char fight with their giant robots .

Originally Posted by Haak

Sorry but I'm not really following your point here. I also agree that Degwin was profoundly hypocritical but nothing in that scene indicated to me that it was being played as such. The prevailing sentiment in that Episode was that the treaty would've been a good thing and thus Degwin was one of the better people for wanting it and justifiably angry for not getting it. Everything else is just our interpretation.

I think the hypocrisy was already clearly played if you see Degwin’s action in the past two episodes. Origin just presented it in a matter-of-fact way. Whether or not we get a bad or good impression about Degwin is really up to us. The show’s portrayal of Degwin itself is pretty neutral. His actions are not glorified nor celebrated in any way. The last shot of Degwin was focusing on him being furious which can be both good or bad depending on who you ask.

Originally Posted by Haak

Was this guy one of them in the Episode? It's been years since i saw the original MSG so if they're simply meant to be shout outs to corrupt EF officials specifically linked to M'Quve then I'll let that slide as an example of bad execution but it really did feel like the writer was giving a middle finger to things like the Geneva Conventions.

Exactly. The couple of mustached-twirling EF guys that we see in this episode is Elran (who was already established as the traitorous officer in cahoots with M’Quve in MSG) and Gopp who was also kind of shady. I mean, the way Gopp and M’Quve stared at each other before smirking just before Revil’s speech was kind of an obvious clue that those two EF guys were up to something fishy.

And no. I don't think the writers or Yoshikazu Yasuhiko meant is as an F-U to the Geneva Conventions. Maybe a little jab about its effectiveness (or lack thereof) but not an outright dismissal or disrespect.

[Haak]

TL;DR…

@ Obelisk

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[justavisitor]

Sorry to interrupt the discussion, but I find it a great coincidence that I just finished the origin in 2 days. So allow me to join in

@Haak
I don't think the episode means Revil makes the wrong decision by continuing wars against Zeon..I think, what this episode means, is the following:

1)Remember the whole series is kind of from Zeon's point of view
2)Degwin wants a truce, which from our point of view since we know all the events happening afterward, is the right thing to do to Zeon
3)But Gihren and Kycilia want to continue, so they let Revil to be free, as they know that Revil wants to fight on
4)Ironically, as we know, their plan will backfire, as Federation, now under Revil's advice, makes the most correct decision, which is to continue fighting

As an audience who is always with EFF, I can't be happier when they let Revil go . Zeon could have gained so much more from the truce, but thankfully they make their own demise

[Haak]

Originally Posted by justavisitor

1)Remember the whole series is kind of from Zeon's point of view

I did consider this line but ultimately these last three episodes do show POVs from the Feds side multiple times as well as even POVs from future Feds (The Future White Base Crew) so I simply dismissed it. Though on second thought, it's possible that was an angle they were going for at first but they were very (and crucially) inconsistent with it at the end.

2)Degwin wants a truce, which from our point of view since we know all the events happening afterward, is the right thing to do to Zeon

So you're saying Degwin was worried his side would lose? I don't think this changes my stance on this matter but on a side note I guess it does explain in this Episode why Revil thought "Zeon is exhausted". Apparently in the manga, he simply observes it by seeing only young soldiers and comes to his own conclusion but this makes more sense.

[justavisitor]

@Haak
Degwin at first only wants power...yes he eventually wants more but he does so at a very small pace..he keeps mentioning throughout the series how tiny Zeon is compared to EFF, so I won't be surprised that all he wants is independence and he would have achieved that goal had the truce been finalized

Of course he would think Zeon could lose in the long run...remember he was in the frontline guarding an empty Zeon at the end of the battle, if not the EFF officer backed out, he could have become a space dust already XD

only his son and daughter want Earth domination...at least, that's how I feel from this series

[Obelisk ze Tormentor]

Originally Posted by Haak

You seem to be implying that it would've been a good thing the Feds to surrender but I honestly can't agree with that.

I mean, considering what happened after OYW all the way to CCA, granting Zeon their freedom and probably a few spots on Earth sounds like a great idea. Unlike the Nazi, Zeon’s most important goal is independence for their colonies, not world domination or slaughtering people who are deemed unworthy to live. The majority of Zeon people dared to challenge the super-powerful EF with their limited resources and the benefit of technology and sheer will/determination/conviction because they want to get that sweet independence. If you give these guys their long-sought independence, you already eliminate 70% of their reasons to fight and bombard Earth. Sweeten the deal with a few lands on Earth then the EF might even get some respects from Zeon. Morally-speaking, it might be wrong, but for me who knows what’s ahead after OYW, the original AT deal sounds great by comparison (eg. for all the bad thing that Zeon did, TITANS & Haman-lead Neo-Zeon were much worse).

Originally Posted by Haak

Yeah but how much of that is really just down to them taking a principled stance as opposed to just lacking the means or just plain stupidity? Or maybe it's just a case of OOC/bad writing.

Considering how many time and resources the Zeon had at the time to just bombard Earth with more colonies and asteroids that’s floating around space (and most of them aren’t stupid), it’s safe to say that the first reason is the most legit one. Speaking of space WMD, the EF actually broke the treaty big time by using the famous Solar System that obliterated Great Degwin (the Gwazine-class ship) and many other ships.

Also, I don’t believe in bad writing when involving something this obvious. Tomino & Yatate were at their best when they wrote the background stories for MSG. That’s why this part of UC is often revisited because it’s rich, wellthoughout and stimulates the mind. Sadly, Tomino’s writing began to waver starting from Zeta.

Originally Posted by Haak

And even if it did turn out that Zeon wouldn't launch another colony drop, that still doesn't mean it would've been a wise decision to trust them at this point. When America bombed Hiroshima and Nagasaki, did anyone an enemy of the US think they could be trusted to never do it again or did it instead start a whole new kind of warfare based on said weapons that continues to this very day? Japan weren't just forced to surrender. They were occupied: They weren't given the option to just trust America. They had no choice. There's just no way that this kind of trust can be possible after such a tragedy, and based on so little.

Like the Wiki listed above, the AT was signed by both factions not largely due to trust, but what each faction could gain from it.

Originally Posted by Haak

And even if the colony Zeon attacked was hostile, Zeon still killed everyone including civilians and noncombatants. And you can't drop an entire colony onto earth and then not claim responsibilities just because it didn't go the way you predicted. That's still on you, even regardless of what the enemy does.

Oh, the Zeon were responsible for the majority of the incident alright, but the fact remains that massacring a large number of civilians instead of EF military personnels has never been their original mission. We need to differentiate between their original intention & mission with the actual tragedy that happened.

Originally Posted by Haak

But for the record, where are you getting the information that Tianem's fleet deliberately veered it off course to save Jaburo? There seems to be a lot of inconsistencies in these side materials so I hope you're giving me the right information. I watched the scene again in Episode 5 (roughly 30 mins in) and all it says is that they panicked and tried to destroy it but failed.

From a certain manga I read in...2007-2010 IIRC. I wish I could show you. There, you can actually read Tianem’s inner thoughts when he bombarded the colony with the nuclear weapons and when backed out from attacking Zeon’s colony defenses. During the colony bombardment, he actually thought it’s better for the colony to drop just anywhere other than Jaburo. From there, I think the implication is pretty clear.

Originally Posted by Haak

It also says the colony killed half the Earth's population so I honestly don't know how on earth it could've been better even if it did go the way Zeon wanted it to. Sounds like it still would've killed insane numbers of innocent people.

First, Jaburo is a large underground military HQ with massive underground tunnel systems. It is also located in the center land of the South America continent.

Second, a great deal of the massive civilian casualties of the colony drop came from the direct impact, the massive tsunami, and the diseases and famine that the tsunami caused when the main part of the colony hit Sidney.

Third, if the colony drop went as Zeon planned, it wouldn’t hit Sidney and caused the massive tsunami that began the chain reaction of the major deaths of the innocents. Giant Tsunami can be a real nasty killer even after it’s long gone, I know coz my country suffered greatly from it back in 2004. You remove the tsunami and the human casualties will be greatly reduced. If the colony hit the Amazon River basin (where Jaburo located), the impact and damage to Earth will be much more isolated (coz no massive tsunami) and civilian casualties from the direct impact will be greatly reduced compared to when it hit Sydney. This is why the asteroid that Char sent to hit and obliterate Lhasa, Tibet wasn’t such a big deal when compared to the cataclysmic Sydney hit. Why? Because the ocean didn’t really play a part in the Lhasa hit. Therefore, significantly less/reduced impact.

Originally Posted by Haak

Spoiler:

Sorry but this is too Watsonian from my Doylist perspective here.
I don't mind different perspectives, and if it actually made Revil's perspective clear then I wouldn't have been bothered in the slightest but it didn't and that just throw all these different perspectives into a different light. That doesn't really paint a good picture. It really does suggest an intentional message. st perspective here.
It kinda does if the only people who think he did the right course of action is the viewers and not the writer. That's my issue: It's easy for me to see why Revil was right. It's harder for me to see if the writer/director knew it too. And that's a huge deal for me. I'd like to give the benefit of the doubt, but it's pretty bad that I'd have to. Actually that's an understatement: It's really bad that I'd have to give the writer the benefit of the doubt that he isn't saying it would've been better to surrender to Space Nazi's.
I mean again, it just begs the question on whether that's really intentional or not. I've seen some pretty ridiculous characterisations of the "left wing" of politics and the "liberal elite" and the "Islamification of Europe" that are completely removed from reality to the point of complete fiction. It could easily just be a case of Poe's Law.

It may make sense on it's own right (just like I thought of Dozle's hypocrisy in the previous episode to spare himself guilt), but it's like i said earlier; it's more the fact that it was every perspective except the right one, that miffed me. This isn't the first time I saw this False Equivalency play out. I made a point about how there seemed to be a distinct undercurrent of it in the previous episode when Sayla declared Zeon and the EF as just as bad as each other. There's an easy excuse for that too, but it all starts to become a little exhausting w hen you're making nothing but excuses when the sum of it seems to be painting a pretty clear picture.

Well, the rest of the argument seems to be your problems with how the director/writer chose to execute & frame things which I can only say that I have no such problems. For example, Degwin’s actions weren’t really accompanied by hopeful or triumphant music. Many of the BGM is actually silent and/or ominous. Thus, I don’t think the episode (or the show in general) really take Degwin’s side. On the contrary, if you rewatch the very last part of Revil speech in the episode, it was actually accompanied by uplifting and hopeful music. Thus, I think the director/writer actually know their stuffs and know which is which when it comes to MSG. I mean, for god’s sake, Yoshikazu Yasuhiko has been deeply involved with MSG story since the very dawn of the franchise. Unlike Akira Toriyama, Yas knows the lore like the back of his hand.

Characters have solid reasoning when it comes to the things that they do throughout Origin, but you seem to be more concerned about the people behind the scenes who might have “hidden agenda” and “disturbing messages” by how they frame and do the events in this episode. Well, I can’t say I agree. I can see where you’re coming from, but I also think that the “issue” that you brought up is not as big as you make it out to be.

All that said, I’m pretty much okay with all this. People take away different things after they watch a feature and Gundam is no exception. Heck, Gundam is actually a good example of an anime where people can get different things from it. I mean, look at the fans. After watching the same early UC anime, they came out as either EF supporters, Zeon supporters or more on the neutral side. And by “supporters” I mean genuine supporters, not troll-supporters or LOL-supporters. They arrived to different conclusions even though they watched the same thing.

Originally Posted by Haak

And for the record, I feel like you're forgetting that the WWII Allies also included USSR and they weren't exactly angels to put it mildly.

Yeah, I know that USSR was part of the Allies. But if you insist then let's talk more about the timeframe of the USSR’s tenure as part of the Allies during WWII. And within that time-frame, I don’t think USSR was anywhere near as bad as EF. What are the worst things that the USSR did during that period? Is it as bad as having their general-tier officers being traitors and helping the Nazi to win massive battles with the Allies just for their own desires?