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Old 2018-02-22, 02:46   Link #41
GundamFan0083
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Denver is the largest city in Colorado and has the largest leftist population outside of Boulder. If you go to where I live in Weld county, people don't even obey the background check laws here that makes it illegal to buy a weapon without going through a dealer (Colorado Amendment 22 which was passed after Columbine).
The reason is because people are so fed up with the stupid gun control laws not doing any good that they now just ignore them because they feel it is better than being a victim of violent crime.

As for Florida, Broward County is the second largest county in Florida in terms of population and has one of the largest left-wing demographics in the state. If they're going over to armed police in schools then the debate is already over in that state and it should be since no policy decisions should be made based on emotion. That is why the proposed ban on said firearms like the one used in the Florida shooting was crushed on Monday and is not likely to be reintroduced.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...aw-change.html
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Old 2018-02-22, 03:15   Link #42
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You know, next year will be the 30th anniversary of Polytechnique here. The tragedy was not forgotten.
I wonder how many will remember those victims here 30 years from now... I think that's the saddest part.
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Old 2018-02-22, 03:38   Link #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reckoner View Post
Here is what I would raise as a counterpoint. For decades healthcare was treated much the same way! We debated, tried and failed for so long that we thought nothing would ever change with the US healthcare system. As history would have it, nothing was different until it was and we got the ACA passed (Putting aside personal qualms with the solution vs medicare as I know you prefer) it did signify a HUGE cultural shift in this country for things like universal coverage and preexisting conditions. My point? It's too easy to succumb to self defeatism.
The ACA was a conservative idea that was formulated in the 90's as a response to Hillary's attempts to create a universal health care system. The argument was that the market should have a chance to fix itself. Romney implemented a version of the ACA when he was governor, and then Obama did so as President. The irony here is that not only did conservatives adamantly oppose it when Obama did it, they acted like it was literal treason which would destroy the fabric of the country. They've now successfully destroyed it. It's crazy.

It was a shit plan to begin with. It was even shittier when Obama proposed it. It was made even worse by removing the public option. It deserves to die. The cultural shift isn't because of the ACA. It's in spite of it. People are tired of the "free market" valuing profits over lives.

I'm glad people are stepping up. But then you get a response like this:

Quote:
Originally Posted by GundamFan0083 View Post
The only real solution to this problem of these mass shootings in the United States has now been implemented in Florida.

https://www.nbcmiami.com/news/local/...51415864910724

We are beyond gun control in the United States.
It is worthless when there are over 500,000,000 weapons and trillions of rounds of ammunition and a sizable portion of the population that would literally rise up against the government if they attempted to ban/outlaw paramilitary arms.
We here in Colorado have a magazine ban that nobody follows.
I was at a gun show in Denver at the Merchandise mart a few weekends ago and there were standard capacity magazines being sold in plain sight in front of police.
Nobody cares, because we know guns are not the problem and never have been.
Background checks are a joke and don't work (as has been illustrated in numerous mass shootings).
We here in Colorado put armed resource officers and armed police officers in the school districts that allow them. We do still have some that are Gun Free Zones and thus vulnerable to Florida style attacks.
The school shooting that prompted us here in Colorado to put armed police officers in our schools was the Arapahoe School Shooting. Only one person died (which is still sad, but its better than double-digits).

The rampage might have resulted in many more casualties had it not been for the quick response of a deputy sheriff who was working as a school resource officer at the school, Robinson said.

https://www.cnn.com/2013/12/14/us/co...ing/index.html
Thanks for proving my point. It's like you read my previous post and made a parody of it....except you're entirely serious.
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Old 2018-02-22, 03:46   Link #44
GundamFan0083
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LostSome View Post
You know, next year will be the 30th anniversary of Polytechnique here. The tragedy was not forgotten.
I wonder how many will remember those victims here 30 years from now... I think that's the saddest part.
All of this is sad, and I wonder if we here in the US as a society would not have allowed Big Pharma to medicate our kids with psychotropics for every little thing, would these mass shootings still be happening this much?
I am inclined to doubt it.

It seems like prior to the 1960s before drugs like chlorpromazine as a treatment for psychosis, the tricyclic antidepressants (TCAs) and non-selective monoamine oxidase inhibitors (MAOIs) began being used more frequently we didn't have this many attacks on random people. Most mass murder in the US was family and gang-related.
In the 1980s we saw the first spike and in the 1990s it went through the proverbial roof.

https://www.globalresearch.ca/mass-s...review/5355990
Here's a short list of some of the better known attacks.

“Columbine mass-killer Eric Harris was taking Luvox — like Prozac, Paxil, Zoloft, Effexor and many others, a modern and widely prescribed type of antidepressant drug called selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors, or SSRIs.” Along with fellow student Dylan Klebold, Harris shot 13 to death and wounded 24 in a headline-grabbing 1999 rampage. “Luvox manufacturer Solvay Pharmaceuticals concedes that during short-term controlled clinical trials, 4 percent of children and youth taking Luvox — that’s one in 25 — developed mania, a dangerous and violence-prone mental derangement characterized by extreme excitement and delusion.”

Twenty-five-year-old Patrick Purdy murdered five children and wounded 30 in a schoolyard shooting rampage in Stockton, California, in 1989. He’d been taking “Amitriptyline, an antidepressant, as well as the antipsychotic drug Thorazine.”

“Kip Kinkel, 15, murdered his parents in 1998 and the next day went to his school, Thurston High in Springfield, Oregon, and opened fire on his classmates, killing two and wounding 22 others. He had been prescribed both Prozac and Ritalin.”

“Aaron Ray Ybarra, 26, of Mountlake Terrace, Washington, allegedly opened fire with a shotgun at Seattle Pacific University in June 2014, killing one student and wounding two others.” Ybarra “said he’d been prescribed with Prozac and Risperdal to help him with his problems.”

“Jose Reyes, the Nevada seventh-grader who went on a shooting rampage at his school in October 2013 was taking a prescription antidepressant [Prozac] at the time….”

“Navy Yard shooter Aaron Alexis sprayed bullets at office workers and in a cafeteria on Sept. 16, 2013, killing 13 people including himself. Alexis had been prescribed [generic antidepressant] Trazodone by his Veterans Affairs doctor.”

“In 1988, 31-year-old Laurie Dann went on a shooting rampage in a second-grade classroom in Winnetka, Ill., killing one child and wounding six. She had been taking the antidepressant Anafranil as well as Lithium, long used to treat mania.”

“In Paducah, Kentucky, in late 1997, 14-year-old Michael Carneal, son of a prominent attorney, traveled to Heath High School and started shooting students in a prayer meeting taking place in the school’s lobby, killing three and leaving another paralyzed. Carneal reportedly was on Ritalin.”

“In 2005, 16-year-old Jeff Weise, living on Minnesota’s Red Lake Indian Reservation, shot and killed nine people and wounded five others before killing himself. Weise had been taking Prozac.”

“47-year-old Joseph T. Wesbecker, just a month after he began taking Prozac in 1989, shot 20 workers at Standard Gravure Corp. in Louisville, Kentucky, killing nine. Prozac-maker Eli Lilly later settled a lawsuit brought by survivors.”

And there are many, many more examples including Steven Paddock (the Las Vegas shooter) who was on Diazepam and this latest shooter in Florida was also reported to have been on anti-depressants/psychotropics.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...z-receive.html

Personally I think that persons on such drugs should be disqualified from buying a firearm legally up to 1-year after they go off the drug.
The lion's share of these shooters in the US have been on psychotropic drugs or have just gone off them before their attacks.
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Old 2018-02-22, 07:06   Link #45
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I have to say, all these pro-gun arguments that I've seen the US-right throw around every time this happens is flabbergasting; coming from someone living in the land down under.

I think the thing that disgusted me the most and probably everyone in general is the smear campaign that went after survivors of the school shooting themselves.

Who the f*ck does that!? Watching footage of those kids deny being crisis actors was absolutely heart breaking. Anyone who seeks to downplay, impede or rubbish the voices of those kids are literal scum of the earth.
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Old 2018-02-22, 10:32   Link #46
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GundamFan083

Your proposal is impossible because:

The NRA has continuously lobbied against gun owner registration
The NRA has continuously lobbied against tougher background checks

President Trump Revoked Gun Background Checks for Mentally Ill People
https://www.snopes.com/trump-sign-bi...tal-illnesses/

Why don't you gun rights activist clean up your own elephant in the room first

Edit: I must admit that Big Pharma vs Gun Industry would be a sight to see.
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Old 2018-02-22, 14:02   Link #47
GundamFan0083
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Key Board View Post
GundamFan083

Your proposal is impossible because:

The NRA has continuously lobbied against gun owner registration
The NRA has continuously lobbied against tougher background checks

President Trump Revoked Gun Background Checks for Mentally Ill People
https://www.snopes.com/trump-sign-bi...tal-illnesses/

Why don't you gun rights activist clean up your own elephant in the room first

Edit: I must admit that Big Pharma vs Gun Industry would be a sight to see.
The NRA is not some faceless lobbying group, it is a grass-roots organization of 5-million Americans who vote for its policies and officers every year. The NRA is doing what its members want it to do; oppose the insanity of the gun prohibitionists because keeping them legal prevents a massive Black Market from happening.

Registration of gun owners does not work because gun owners will not comply and no longer have to because the gun bans have spurred people on to building their own weapons.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Vii8yK-Vq8

Building standard 30-round and 20-round magazines is also now on the rise as it is easier than ever.

Please be advised that if you use SNOPES, or Politi"fact" or any other "fact"-checker with me I simply will dismiss your comment. They are not unbias sources and one need only look at who owns them, and the activities of those people to know they are unscrupulous and hardly unbias.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...aud-lying.html

I respect The Nation and Motherjones more than I do the so called "unbias" propaganda pushers.

I prefer to deal with websites that wear their bias on their proverbial sleeve and don't claim to be impartial since most are not.

Reason is a Libertarian magazine and as you may already know, Libertarians do not like Trump in the least, so their article on the subject of whether or not Trump made it easier for Mentally Ill people to acquire a firearm is far more credible.

https://reason.com/blog/2018/02/15/n...asier-for-ment

That aside, the NRA has never been the problem and is simply a convenient scapegoat for those pushing a disarmament agenda rather than those who are actually concerned with homicide in the United States and concerned with Mass shooting events (which have different motivations and demographics than homicide in the US in general).
In the Florida shooting case it was the FBI that failed (they seem to do that a lot in these shooting cases).
https://nypost.com/2018/02/16/fbi-fa...er-last-month/

If they had done a proper investigation of Cruz and actually acted on his threats then the Florida shooting may have ended like the attempted shooting a day prior to it.
http://dfw.cbslocal.com/2018/02/15/g...hool-shooting/

That is another effective way to stop these shootings outside of armed security and ending the over-medicating of our kids. If you know someone who has declared their intent to commit such an act and they are amassing the means to do so, and they are on antidepressant drugs, call the police.

As for "cleaning up" the elephant in the room. That elephant already sat on the gun prohibitionists during the 1994-2004 ban when the frequency of mass shootings actually went up instead of down. The ban doesn't work in Colorado, it doesn't work in Connecticut, it doesn't work in New York, it doesn't work in California, it just doesn't work....period, and it never will work because guns are not the driving force (the motive) in mass murder attacks.

https://reason.com/blog/2018/02/15/a...-stop-mass-sho

As for something that actually might curb the use of firearms for mass shootings and violent crime in general, the two groups who are at fault for hamstringing any attempt to do so in the US are the GOP and Dems who dismantled the reserve militia/Civil Defense Force we used to have in the US prior to the 1960s. When the CMP was supported and funded by the Department of Civilian Marksmanship and we had government arsenals that built military arms our citizens could buy directly from them, we didn't have these mass shootings.
Why?
Because of two main factors.

The first was that men were required to serve in the US military as part of the selective service program and thus they learned why we own paramilitary arms in the United States and they were disciplined. When men left the armed forces after that service they carried with them what they learned into the CMP/Civil Defense Corps; that being that paramilitary arms are not for some machismo nonsense, or for hunting, or sport shooting or any other reason than defense of this country and that the reserve militia was responsible for three missions laid out in article 1, section 8, clause 15: those being putting down insurrections, repelling invasions, and executing/upholding the laws of the Union (constitution and bill of rights).

https://www.heritage.org/constitutio...militia-clause

Few people seem to realize that prior to the Gun Control Act of 1968 (which was pushed due to the assassination of President Kennedy, Martin Luther King Jr., and Robert Kennedy, none of which were killed with machine guns), you could buy a gun through the mail, you could buy machine guns through the Sears catalogue, and we didn't have anywhere near the mass shootings we have now even though greater firepower was available.

The second major factor is--as I've said already--psychotropic drugs.
Even supposedly "harmless" drugs like Vallum/Diazepam has psychosis, aggression, and violent behavior as a side effect of withdrawal or abuse of the drug.

https://www.peoplespharmacy.com/2011...lent-behavior/

Again, if a person charts the use of psychotropic drugs with the rise in mass shootings and takes into account nearly all mass shooters are either on psychotropic drugs or have just come off them, one sees a correlation. Big Pharma has denied this and used the media to their advantage to push the defense of their products by claiming there is no connection. However, it seems highly unlikely that the rise in mass shootings was due to guns since access to firearms was easier prior to the 1960s, and these mass shootings were far less in frequency and far less lethal.
After the introduction of psychotropic drugs to treat a wide range of conditions that Big Pharma has made billions off, the mass shooting events have increased exponentially. It is now estimated that 1 in 6 Americans is on some type of psychotropic.

https://www.scientificamerican.com/a...chiatric-drug/


Prior to 1986 you could buy a brand new machine gun in the US, and we didn't have mass shooters using them for their deeds. In fact, most mass shootings are still done with pistols.

https://news.vice.com/article/glock-...-mass-shooting

The US media is what is pushing the AR-15 narrative, but reality is very different.
https://www.statista.com/statistics/...y-weapon-used/

Rifles as a whole account for a very small fraction of weapons used in homicide and of those, paramilitary weapons are an even smaller fraction which is why bans on paramilitary arms are worthless in the US as are bans on standard capacity magazines. Most homicides in the US are committed with a handgun and according to the ATF, most of those handguns hold 8-rounds or less.

https://www.nytimes.com/2014/09/14/s...apon-myth.html

We had far less gun control, and far less violent crime prior to Big Pharma getting involved in our personal lives and medicating our population.
If you really care about stopping these mass shootings, that's where we have to start because it is the common denominator whether a shooter is young, old, or is using a pistol or a paramilitary weapon; nearly all of them are on psychiatric drugs.
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Old 2018-02-22, 15:25   Link #48
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You're citing the daily mail and you call snopes biased????!!!!!!!!!
How about you dispute what's said on there.

and you haven't addressed what I said.

How do you prevent guns from falling into undeserving people, if the NRA and the gun industry has done nothing make make sure that guns fall into more hands, not less.
Again, you did not dispute this. Just look what NRA is doing now? Oh right, they just lobbied against raising the age limit to 21
Trump has said he would raise them and promote new background checks. So far this is AGAINST the NRA wishes. What do you say to that?

Yes, having so many guns in circulation complicates the issue, but we need to take baby steps.
It will take a long time before we can be like Europe or Australia or Japan, but we need to takes step to get there.

Do you really want to arm teachers ? Many school shooters so far has managed to do so because they had access to their parents unsecured fire arms.

Last edited by Key Board; 2018-02-22 at 15:48.
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Old 2018-02-22, 15:38   Link #49
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Yet it is an interesting argument.
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Old 2018-02-22, 16:03   Link #50
GundamFan0083
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Key Board View Post
You're citing the daily mail and you call snopes biased????!!!!!!!!!
How about you dispute what's said on there.

and you haven't addressed what I said.

How do you prevent guns from falling into undeserving people, if the NRA and the gun industry has done nothing make make sure that guns fall into more hands, not less.
Again, you did not dispute this. Just look what NRA is doing now? Oh right, they just lobbied against raising the age limit to 21
Trump has said he would raise them and promote new background checks. So far this is AGAINST the NRA wishes. What do you say to that?

Yes, having so many guns in circulation complicates the issue, but we need to take baby steps.
It will take a long time before we can be like Europe or Australia or Japan, but we need to takes step to get there.

Do you really want to arm teachers ? Many school shooters so far has managed to do so because they had access to their parents unsecured fire arms.
That's the point. SNOPES isn't any better than the DailyMail.
Raising the age limit is a worthless gesture, and is technically a violation of Title 10, Section 311 of the United States Code.
If you can be drafted into war at 18, you can own a paramilitary weapon, the NRA was right to oppose that nonsense.

You can no longer prevent guns from falling into anybody's hands in the US.
That's why you have to go after the people who may commit these acts BEFORE they do so.
Gun control is DEAD in the US for the reasons I already have given.
Armed guards/security in schools is the first step.
Ending Gun Free Zones is the next step.
Going after Big Pharma and stopping the over medicating of Americans comes next.
Preventing people from buying guns who are ON psychiatric drugs comes after that, with a 1-year cool down period once they are off them to be sure.

What you are advocating is disarmament and I already showed you that is impossible since Americans no longer care about the gun laws and are already violating them.
Many now manufacture their own weapons and so there are millions of non-serial numbered weapons in circulation.
The US is not Japan, or Europe or Australia for the simple reason that there is a distinct difference between mass shootings and homicide in the US.
Mass Shootings in the US are usually done by white males who are on psychiatric drugs.
That can be prevented by going after the drugs.
Homicide in the US is done by black males who are part of, or related to gangs.
If you combine Japan, Western Europe, the UK, Canada, and Australia there are approximately 5000 gangs and 400,000 gang members total.
In the United States, we have 33,000 gangs and 1.4 million gang members.

https://www.fbi.gov/investigate/violent-crime/gangs

With regard to US homicide rates, it isn't guns, it is gangs.
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Old 2018-02-22, 18:20   Link #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GundamFan0083 View Post
What you are advocating is disarmament and I already showed you that is impossible since Americans no longer care about the gun laws and are already violating them.
Many now manufacture their own weapons and so there are millions of non-serial numbered weapons in circulation.
So let me get this straight. Not only are you blaming something other than guns, which, no shit, the gun didn't jump in the shooters hand and make him kill 17 people. He had to be in a fucked up mental state to want to shoot. But, you're also claiming that it's impossible to do anything to at least reduce the sheer quantity and ease of getting a gun because people will just do whatever they want anyway.

THEN, you propose that we go after another industry, like the Pharma, and you somehow believe that these people will be different and totally comply with the law?

Heh. The logic is astounding. Oh yeah, about that "good guy with a gun" theory of arming public places?

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-f...-idUSKCN1G62X3

Turns out sometimes that isn't good enough either. Hrm.
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Old 2018-02-22, 18:30   Link #52
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Remember what the American population is based on:

Religious outcasts.
Refuges
Political outsiders.
Misfits.
Prisoners.
Indentured servants
Get rich quick gold seekers.
Merchants.
Slaves
Captured natives
Captured colonials from other powers.
and more refugees over the centuries.


What do you want from us?
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Old 2018-02-22, 18:37   Link #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GundamFan0083 View Post
Registration of gun owners does not work because gun owners will not comply
Then their asses can/should be arrested. Or scrap literally every law because people can apparently just choose to not comply with them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Solace View Post
So let me get this straight. Not only are you blaming something other than guns, which, no shit, the gun didn't jump in the shooters hand and make him kill 17 people. He had to be in a fucked up mental state to want to shoot. But, you're also claiming that it's impossible to do anything to at least reduce the sheer quantity and ease of getting a gun because people will just do whatever they want anyway.
I mean, Trump's new stance is a callback to the 90s in saying video games and movies are the problem. And don't forget Florida refusing to even discuss gun control, while simultaneously declaring porn a public health risk. Because apparently guns don't kill people, video games, movies, and porn kill people.
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Old 2018-02-22, 18:52   Link #54
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When your best argument against a proposed law is that you will just not comply with it, then you know there is something really wrong with your position.

Laws aren't something that you can just choose whether or not you want to comply with, they don't work like that.
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Old 2018-02-22, 19:37   Link #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Solace View Post
Heh. The logic is astounding. Oh yeah, about that "good guy with a gun" theory of arming public places?

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-f...-idUSKCN1G62X3

Turns out sometimes that isn't good enough either. Hrm.
When I saw the news of that, all I could think was all the BS the NRA guys tried to push in that direction. Now that the sheriff came public with that sad part, it should bust the myth of a good guy with a gun once and for all.
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Old 2018-02-22, 19:37   Link #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ithekro View Post
Remember what the American population is based on:
[snip]
What do you want from us?
Your assumption boils to the simple belief that human beings are born good or not. But your country was established under the assumption that if you gave (any) men the chance to do great, they would thrive and flourish and in the process make the USA great.

So yeah, the world is watching and yeah, we expect better. It was not me who said "All mankind waits upon our decision. A whole world looks to see what we will do. We cannot fail their trust, we cannot fail to try."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PZey0q8G-3E
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Old 2018-02-22, 21:57   Link #57
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Originally Posted by Eisdrache View Post
When your best argument against a proposed law is that you will just not comply with it, then you know there is something really wrong with your position.

Laws aren't something that you can just choose whether or not you want to comply with, they don't work like that.
it's the prohibition argument, the argument stemmed from the prohibition era in which America banned all alcoholic substance and made it's ownership and use illegal, only for that ban to spectacularly fail as no one followed it as alcohol was a part of society since before America was founded, so it was repealed a few years later as if they are going to do it anyway might as well tax them for it. The problem is whether that argument can be applied to gun control
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Old 2018-02-22, 22:42   Link #58
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Originally Posted by shadow1296 View Post
it's the prohibition argument, the argument stemmed from the prohibition era in which America banned all alcoholic substance and made it's ownership and use illegal, only for that ban to spectacularly fail as no one followed it as alcoholism was a part of society since before America was founded, so it was repealed a few years later as if they are going to do it anyway might as well tax them for it. The problem is whether that argument can be applied to gun control
Let's put it into perspective, about 48 years ago Nixon declared a war on drugs and it has failed spectacularly; millions of dollars and many lives have been lost (due to death or imprisonment) to it, but even now the federal government is still waging war on it and lots of violence still emanates from it.

So don't think because USA government would stop an assault weapons prohibition after a few years of unrest and I can't remember any unrest whatsoever over Clinton's assault weapon ban. So no, there is no resemblance to the alcohol prohibition.
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Old 2018-02-22, 22:47   Link #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GundamFan0083 View Post
That's the point. SNOPES isn't any better than the DailyMail.
That doesn't justify either.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Toukairin View Post
When I saw the news of that, all I could think was all the BS the NRA guys tried to push in that direction. Now that the sheriff came public with that sad part, it should bust the myth of a good guy with a gun once and for all.
Actually it doesn't do that at all. The so called "good guy with a gun" in regards to the 2nd amendment would be private citizens in this context. It doesn't apply to the police.

If anything that just shows that putting absolute faith in the government to save lives is not that great of an idea as they have repeatedly failed to do their job at all levels in this case.

In reality, a private citizen gave their life to save lives. The agent of the government that was supposed to protect people did shit. So....
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Old 2018-02-22, 23:04   Link #60
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The prohibition argument fails on all levels because what is demanded is not a prohibition but common sense regulation. The same way alcohol, drugs, vehicles, and so on are regulated as well.
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