[Game] Umineko - Spoilers, Theories, Interpretations

[rogerpepitone]

Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon

The tunnels.

We can be almost certain that there's some kind of tunnel system on the island, specifically one leading from somewhere in the main mansion area to Kuwadorian. (This tunnel may also contain the 'gold room'.)

If this is true, why couldn't there be a tunnel leading from the guesthouse to the main house? One which only Nanjo and Kinzo (and probably Genji) were aware of?

Krauss designed the guesthouse, not Kinzo. I seriously doubt any tunnel could be built without him knowing about it.

[Judoh]

Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon

The tunnels.

We can be almost certain that there's some kind of tunnel system on the island, specifically one leading from somewhere in the main mansion area to Kuwadorian. (This tunnel may also contain the 'gold room'.)

If this is true, why couldn't there be a tunnel leading from the guesthouse to the main house? One which only Nanjo and Kinzo (and probably Genji) were aware of?

If there are tunnels as they are pointed out in episode 4 most of them are volcanic tunnels, mine tunnels, and caves. Not secret passages that lead into random mansions or pathways that lead into the guesthouse.

Like it was pointed out explosives were probably used to make the foundation for the guesthouse and MAYBE other path ways to the Kuwadorian. There might be explosives left over. The bomb can then be an accident from those leftover explosives. But there certainly wouldn't be any tunnels leading into guesthouse without Krauss knowing about it. That's basically a secret passage anyway so I call Knox's 3rd.

[chronotrig]

Originally Posted by Judoh

Like it was pointed out explosives were probably used to make other path ways to the Kuwadorian and such and there are explosive left over. The bomb can then be an accident from those leftover explosives.

Well, I find it hard to believe Kinzo would leave explosives lying around for 20/30 years, and I don't see how he could have used them during the time any of his children lived on the island. It's not impossible, but I don't see why he'd need to. Plus, I'm pretty sure you wouldn't use explosives to make a tunnel on an island like Rokkenjima.

Oh, and EP5 more or less confirms that there are no secret passages out of the guesthouse, I think.

[Judoh]

Originally Posted by chronotrig

Well, I find it hard to believe Kinzo would leave explosives lying around for 20/30 years, and I don't see how he could have used them during the time any of his children lived on the island. It's not impossible, but I don't see why he'd need to.

Oh, and EP5 more or less confirms that there are no secret passages out of the guesthouse, I think.

It's a volcanic island. Volcanic rock is pretty solid. We think he legitimately NEEDED explosives to dig the foundation for the guesthouse in the rock.

[Tyabann]

Didn't Kinzo help oversee the construction of the guesthouse, or something? I seem to remember an argument involving that earlier.

Originally Posted by Judoh

That's basically a secret passage anyway so I call Knox's 3rd.

A secret passage is defined as a "passage that cannot be found by the detective" or something like that, as I recall.

While this rules out there being hidden entrances into Jessica's room, the chapel, and Kinzo's study (and anywhere else Battler and Erika have actually searched, as well as rooms that have been declared 'closed' by Beatrice) it doesn't mean that there aren't secret doors anywhere else on the island, if the detective has never examined those areas.

Originally Posted by chronotrig

Oh, and EP5 more or less confirms that there are no secret passages out of the guesthouse, I think.

Well, it doesn't have to be in the guesthouse. It just has to be somewhere Nanjo can get into easily and without being seen. Like maybe that gazebo in the rose garden?

[chronotrig]

Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon

A secret passage is defined as a "passage that cannot be found by the detective" or something like that, as I recall.

While this rules out there being hidden entrances into Jessica's room, the chapel, and Kinzo's study (and anywhere else Battler and Erika have actually searched, as well as rooms that have been declared 'closed' by Beatrice) it doesn't mean that there aren't secret doors anywhere else on the island, if the detective has never examined those areas.

But Battler does inspect the guesthouse when George disappears out the window.

Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon

Well, it doesn't have to be in the guesthouse. It just has to be somewhere Nanjo can get into easily and without being seen. Like maybe that gazebo in the rose garden?

Wait, once he gets out of the guesthouse, it's only a five minute walk to the mansion. He wouldn't need a tunnel

[Tyabann]

Originally Posted by chronotrig

Wait, once he gets out of the guesthouse, it's only a five minute walk to the mansion. He wouldn't need a tunnel

Well then, I think we can simply rule out Nanjo. He isn't a murderer, anyway.

Originally Posted by chronotrig

But Battler does inspect the guesthouse when George disappears out the window.

The whole thing? Top to bottom?

[SeagullCrazy]

Originally Posted by chronotrig

Then again, it's also true that EP3 was supposedly made to be easier. I doubt it's as easy as "Nanjo killed everyone", but it should more simple than the other EPs in some way. Also, while Nanjo is shoved in our faces, it's done a bit too soon in the story. They actually comment on the fact that he's almost the only person who could have killed Rosa. Many readers will see that, think "oh, it can't be that easy", and discount Nanjo as a suspect prematurely.

Okay, I'm a little confused on Rosa's murder. Here are the suspects:

• Battler, George, and Jessica were together the whole time, so they're innocent.
• Krauss, Natsuhi, Rudolf, and Kyrie were on the first floor together.
• Eva and Hideyoshi were in the guest room on the second floor together.
• Nanjo was another room on the second floor.

• Krauss, Natsuhi, Rudolf, and Kyrie conspired together
• Eva and Hideyoshi conspired together
• Nanjo did it

And remember, Hideyoshi was in the room the whole time.
There are contradictions for all three:

• It's either all or none of them were in on it.
• Eva was sick at the time
• Nanjo isn't in the best condition to be jumping out windows

I don't know what to believe. Any thoughts?

[Tyabann]

Rudolf is the first one to discover the bodies; he could have murdered them then.

[Judoh]

Hideyoshi left while Eva was sick and sleeping that one time. He could do it then too.

Also we don't really KNOW the adults were together the whole time. Rudolf was the one who suggested Nanjo did it by jumping out the window anyway. He'd be covering up for himself or somebody else in that case.

[SeagullCrazy]

Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon

Rudolf is the first one to discover the bodies; he could have murdered them then.

But why? He doesn't know about the gold being found, so that can't be his motive.
You could say that Rudolf wanted to frame Eva. But that should be Kyrie's idea. In that case, who is in on the "frame Eva" conspiracy?

[chronotrig]

There's another problem with this twilight. Remember that Rosa recognizes her attacker as Eva, but Maria realizes that it isn't Eva. This happens before the full magic scene breaks out, so for all we know, it might be the truth or at least a hint. If so, it narrows down our possibilities considerably.

[LyricalAura]

IIRC, there was also a scene where Beato was discussing Battler's theory with Ronove, and the way she was talking about it made it sound as if Eva was definitely in her bedroom at the time. Battler didn't witness this, so it ought to be trustworthy.

[Judoh]

Originally Posted by SeagullCrazy

But why? He doesn't know about the gold being found, so that can't be his motive.
You could say that Rudolf wanted to frame Eva. But that should be Kyrie's idea. In that case, who is in on the "frame Eva" conspiracy?

I don't think that has to be the why. It doesn't always have to be a conspiracy. Or even murder. Rosa and Maria's murder was strange anyway it could of just been manslaughter or an accident.

Rosa was with Maria scolding her
Rudolf went to check on her because she left by herself. He was thinking she could be in danger
Rudolf's gun goes off by accident causing Rosa to slip and her head is pierced by the fence
Maria panics and screams that he killed her mom
She gets strangled to be kept quiet
Rudolf "discovers them dead" and blames Nanjo as a possible murderer

[Tyabann]

Alternatively, Rosa and Maria's deaths are just what they initially appear to be: Rosa finally snapped and strangled Maria to death, realized what she'd done, stumbled backwards, and impaled herself on the fence.

That this is the only second twilight where stakes are not used is kind of telling.

[SeagullCrazy]

Originally Posted by Judoh

I don't think that has to be the why. It doesn't always have to be a conspiracy. Or even murder. Rosa and Maria's murder was strange anyway it could of just been manslaughter or an accident.

Rosa was with Maria scolding her
Rudolf went to check on her because she left by herself. He was thinking she could be in danger
Rudolf's gun goes off by accident causing Rosa to slip and her head is pierced by the fence
Maria panics and screams that he killed her mom
She gets strangled to be kept quiet
Rudolf "discovers them dead" and blames Nanjo as a possible murderer

Actually, that makes sense. Because if Rudolf killed Rosa and Maria, then there wouldn't be any reason to be afraid of going outside the mansion and getting food, since "the killer" is none other than himself.

[Judoh]

Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon

Alternatively, Rosa and Maria's deaths are just what they initially appear to be: Rosa finally snapped and strangled Maria to death, realized what she'd done, stumbled backwards, and impaled herself on the fence.

That this is the only second twilight where stakes are not used is kind of telling.

Rosa and Maria were killed by other people

I don't know if Rosa counts as another person and can kill Maria, but Rosa almost certainly died due to what somebody else did and it wasn't Maria that caused her to die.

[Judoh]

Originally Posted by SeagullCrazy

Actually, that makes sense. Because if Rudolf killed Rosa and Maria, then there wouldn't be any reason to be afraid of going outside the mansion and getting food, since "the killer" is none other than himself.

Well if we're to beleive what happens afterward Hideysohi and Rudolf probably get into some kind of duel. So I wonder why exactly Hideyoshi was invited then?

[chronotrig]

Originally Posted by SeagullCrazy

Actually, that makes sense. Because if Rudolf killed Rosa and Maria, then there wouldn't be any reason to be afraid of going outside the mansion and getting food, since "the killer" is none other than himself.

Wait, what are the odds that Rosa would actually get killed in an accident like that? It's good for a story and all, but if such a thing were really that likely, you'd think at least one of the dozens of people who lived on the island for decades would have had the same thing happen to them at least once. And since Rudolf has no motive for attacking them in the first place, that's two highly improbable accidents in a row needed for this to work.

[Tyabann]

Originally Posted by Judoh

I don't know if Rosa counts as another person and can kill Maria, but Rosa almost certainly died due to what somebody else did and it wasn't Maria that caused her to die.

Ah, forgot about that red completely. Well then, Rudolf discovered Rosa killing Maria. He pushed Rosa aside to try and save her daughter, but...

I don't like relying on a misfiring gun or Rudolf silencing annoying children, myself.