Nekomonogatari Black - 2-Hour Special Discussion / Poll

[omimon]

Originally Posted by HandofFate

so was there any reason why shinobu wanted the helmet?

Yeah....this really goes back to the whole thing about Kizu not being animated yet. Honestly whether its publishing order or chrono order people should by all means be familiar of Kizu by now. They actually reference A LOT of stuff from Kizu in Kuro seeing as it's the only book that's set before this one. I can think of THREE spots right of the top of my head where Shaft had to cut out stuff just because it would spoil stuff from Kizu.

[Solace]

Originally Posted by -Sho-

The only thing who bothered me "You're going to live as that person for your whole life!" "You can't change that" "You were born as that person , you grew up into that person"

My answer : - People can change -

People do change. You are not the same person that you were when you were younger. None of us are. But at the same time, we are fundamentally the same as we used to be. Some things you can change, but it's impossible to be anyone other than who you are.

That's the whole gist of her character, even down to her catch phrase of "I don't know everything, I just know what I know". She isn't who she is, and yet she is who she is. Sorry if that sounds like I'm speaking in riddles, but it's hard to explain. Oshino, at the very end, echoes this.

It's possible to be in love, and yet never say it. It's possible to have feelings deeper than love, and be unable to express them. Her family is still a family, even if it doesn't seem like it. She has emotions, even if she doesn't express them. These sound like contradictions, but what they really are, are facades. When you get to know people, you realize that appearances aren't everything, that what you see is just the tip of the iceberg on a much more complex being. But no mask is perfect, and icebergs are still made of ice.

Of all the characters in the Monogatari series, I find her the most realistic and fascinating, far more than any of the other girls. This isn't to downplay someone like Senjougahara, who is brilliantly written. All of the girls possess great characterization, writing, and mystery, but of all of them Hanekawa has the most appeal to me. Truly, this special was a treat, although I could have done without the first episode.

A final thought (and maybe a controversial one): I don't feel that Hanekawa "lost" to Senjougahara in terms of romance. I feel like the relationships are just different. Again, hard to explain. Love takes many forms.

[DragoZERO]

Originally Posted by HandofFate

so was there any reason why shinobu wanted the helmet?

Koyomi mentioned that he won't be able to pat her head with the helmet. I am assuming that is one of the reasons why she wanted it.

[Malkuth]

Originally Posted by Solace

People do change. You are not the same person that you were when you were younger. None of us are. But at the same time, we are fundamentally the same as we used to be. Some things you can change, but it's impossible to be anyone other than who you are.

That's the whole gist of her character, even down to her catch phrase of "I don't know everything, I just know what I know". She isn't who she is, and yet she is who she is. Sorry if that sounds like I'm speaking in riddles, but it's hard to explain. Oshino, at the very end, echoes this.

It's possible to be in love, and yet never say it. It's possible to have feelings deeper than love, and be unable to express them. Her family is still a family, even if it doesn't seem like it. She has emotions, even if she doesn't express them. These sound like contradictions, but what they really are, are facades. When you get to know people, you realize that appearances aren't everything, that what you see is just the tip of the iceberg on a much more complex being. But no mask is perfect, and icebergs are still made of ice.

Of all the characters in the Monogatari series, I find her the most realistic and fascinating, far more than any of the other girls. This isn't to downplay someone like Senjougahara, who is brilliantly written. All of the girls possess great characterization, writing, and mystery, but of all of them Hanekawa has the most appeal to me. Truly, this special was a treat, although I could have done without the first episode.

A final thought (and maybe a controversial one): I don't feel that Hanekawa "lost" to Senjougahara in terms of romance. I feel like the relationships are just different. Again, hard to explain. Love takes many forms.

Mod-chan, this might be the first and last time I will agree with you

[Kaoru Chujo]

For me, this might be Shinbou's masterpiece, up to now. It was like Le Portrait de Petit Cossette at a much higher level of art, especially visual but also dramatic. My heart was in my throat through much of the last part. I understand why some people might think of it as all talking heads, but the visual art of it seemed to me to combine all of Shinbou's strengths and refine them. Glorious.

The voice I liked best here (besides Sakurai Takahiro) was Iguchi Yuka as Tsukihi. That first part (I watched the unsplit version) amused and did not offend me. I apologize to those with higher moral standards.

I am not a fan of Horie Yui, and Hanekawa's voice never does much for me. But I did like the OP. The advent of software that can keep a voice in tune may have helped Hocchan more than anyone else.

[Marcus H.]

I finally managed to watch part 4.



Brilliant speech there, Araragi-kun.

[Tempest35]

Originally Posted by Solace

People do change. You are not the same person that you were when you were younger. None of us are. But at the same time, we are fundamentally the same as we used to be. Some things you can change, but it's impossible to be anyone other than who you are.

That's the whole gist of her character, even down to her catch phrase of "I don't know everything, I just know what I know". She isn't who she is, and yet she is who she is. Sorry if that sounds like I'm speaking in riddles, but it's hard to explain. Oshino, at the very end, echoes this.

It's possible to be in love, and yet never say it. It's possible to have feelings deeper than love, and be unable to express them. Her family is still a family, even if it doesn't seem like it. She has emotions, even if she doesn't express them. These sound like contradictions, but what they really are, are facades. When you get to know people, you realize that appearances aren't everything, that what you see is just the tip of the iceberg on a much more complex being. But no mask is perfect, and icebergs are still made of ice.

Of all the characters in the Monogatari series, I find her the most realistic and fascinating, far more than any of the other girls. This isn't to downplay someone like Senjougahara, who is brilliantly written. All of the girls possess great characterization, writing, and mystery, but of all of them Hanekawa has the most appeal to me. Truly, this special was a treat, although I could have done without the first episode.

A final thought (and maybe a controversial one): I don't feel that Hanekawa "lost" to Senjougahara in terms of romance. I feel like the relationships are just different. Again, hard to explain. Love takes many forms.

Just for the heck of it, I did look up 'types of love' and kinda surprised to see, 'The Four Kinds of Love...', 'The Six Kinds of Love...', 'The 15 Different Kinds of Love...' ... and I had to laugh to myself. So many people feel a need to define something that easily trancends logic, barriers, and description.

I guess for Araragi, I can say that he genuinely loves Hanekawa and yet, he is not 'in love' with her. Nothing that Hanekawa ever did, or will do, will ever change Araragi's feelings for her. He loves her enough to die for her without a second thought, even if she's the one killing him. He's pretty much reached the agape level of love for Hanekawa. It's why he can be mean to her and say things that might make her cry, or even deny her what she wanted (being saved by him) to give her what she really needed (saving herself). This doesn't mean that he won't get angry or upset with her ever again. She'll do things that he'll dislike for sure, they are human as well, but what she does will never eclipse his love for her.

I get the feeling that at first, his love for Hanekawa was akin to love for an ideal - an intangible. A lofty mindset that only a few, if any, can reach - the love a follower of a Buddha might feel, if you will. Something so pure that for them to physically touch it would be a sin. ... And yet, the Cat incident brutally re-constructed his unrealistic view of a very fragile human girl who just 'knew what she knew'. All in all, his love for Hanekawa didn't change all that much - it was the focus of that love is what changed. 'Hanekawa Tsubasa the ideal' was shattered and replaced by a truer Hanekawa Tsubasa, one that was indeed flawed, much like himself.

As for Hanekawa, it seems that she fell 'in love' with Araragi very much so, although this love was a lot more selfish in nature. By selfish, I don't mean a bad thing, but a normal thing. For her, Araragi also represented something - an escape, a way out from the life that she was living. She fell in love with the notion that Araragi would 'rescue' her from her life into a world that she had knowledge of but also wanted to experience. She's not wrong in doing so - many people fall 'in love' selfishly. Most of the time, it's infatuation or lust talking and most people take a long time to get to the point to see past their own desires talking to see the person for who they really are. Araragi was a means to an end that she projected onto him. Of course, all of this came to a head at the vampire incident. I'm not really sure on how much she had desired Araragi before the events of Kizu, but what happened in Kizu really drove her 'love' for him to a new level.

I'm not sure but, to me, it also felt as if she wanted to become what Araragi was - an Oddity - in order to be closer to him, to be more like him. Another form of escaping, if you will. ...maybe that's why, because she wanted Araragi to be the one to literally rescue her.

*sighs*

A beautiful and very powerful couple... missed by inches... I think the fact that they felt that they didn't need to convey their true feelings with mere words is what really doomed them.

Fuko da...

[klare]

so this was what happened before Bake, Shinobu already can talk, Araragi sleeping with his sisters, Oshino beaten badly

glad to know more about Hanekawa, she looks much better with long hair

i think overall is a good OVA

[achirist]

I really hated Oshino and his BS victim blaming monologues in this episode. Neglect, physical, and emotional abuse of children is an inexcusable crime and is not the child's fault. Hanekawa would have formed her personality as a response to the abuse, abandonment, and rough treatment she received at home. Her parents were not innocent victims who suddenly had a child living with them who was righteous. She deserves her own room, things, kind treatment, and more then one outfit to wear regardless of how intelligent and forthright she is. It's too bad the cat couldn't use her powers to steal some money so that Hanekawa could get her own apartment and finish high school outside of her abusive household. It kind of pisses me off that they were all so sure that nothing could be done and things would have to go back to normal in the end. I hope Hanekawa is able to move out somewhere in this series.

Other then that, I think I would have understood this better if Kizu had already aired beforehand. I'm still missing a big chunk of their relationship. I think if paired with the other prequel, this would have more definite value and purpose in showing a backstory. By itself it's a little iffy.

[Malkuth]

Understanding why the parents behaved in that way, does not imply that they are not at fault for behavior. They are two completely different things.

[Dauerlutscher]

I'm a little confused. So Araragi loves Hanekawa but he can't for some reason be with her so he settled for Senjougahara?

[Endscape]

Originally Posted by Dauerlutscher

I'm a little confused. So Araragi loves Hanekawa but he can't for some reason be with her so he settled for Senjougahara?

He didn't settle for Senjougahara, she got there first in a way.

[Marcus H.]

Dauerlutscher:

I think it's because he would end up caring for her too much if they end up together. And caring for her is the complete opposite of what she needs right now.

Tsubasa has a tendency to not help herself on her own.
Koyomi, on the other hand, has justice in his veins and will help out anyone.

By analogy, it's like a star approaching a black hole.

Koyomi thinks that in order for Tsubasa to help herself, she needs to do it without his presence.

Also, Koyomi realizes that his feelings for Tsubasa are not love, but something else entirely.

[Endscape]

Originally Posted by Marcus H.

Dauerlutscher:

I think it's because he would end up caring for her too much if they end up together. And caring for her is the complete opposite of what she needs right now.

I think you have something here, Marcus, but I don't think it's all about Hanekawa. Araragi himself doesn't seem to like relationships that are too comfortable, so that could be a factor.

[Marcus H.]

^ Well, he does mention that he prefers to have a life as an only child, and he has a rather complicated relationship with his sisters (i.e., he doesn't care for them, but he helps them nonetheless). It's as if he helps them not as the older brother of the Fire Sisters, but as a guy who just likes to help others. (Am I grasping Koyomi's character correctly?)

[Dauerlutscher]

I must admit that i have not watched it because, until 30 minutes ago, I had no clue about it and I still have no clue where i can watch it.
And I only watched Bakemonogatari years ago.

So I only want to know a couple things.
- He is together with Senjougahara, but he still loves Hanekawa?
- And if the feelings for Hanekawa are not love, what else? How you guys are talking about it, makes it hard for me to believe that it is something different than love.

Maybe I'm just confused because it's to late here and I should go to sleep.^^

[Marcus H.]

Well, the Monogatari series is really a complicated thing to swallow all at once. Even I admit that the dialogs, particularly Koyomi's long one against Black Hanekawa during Neko Black Part 4, needs a few rewatches before one can truly grasp what he means. But that's just how Nisioisin rolls.

Based on Koyomi's conversation with Tsukihi and Karen, his feelings for Tsubasa doesn't cover both of the Fire Sisters' definitions. He doesn't want to be together with Tsubasa (unlike Tsukihi's definition of love -- Tsubasa's personality can be disgusting in certain aspects and it will not be helpful for her development) and he hasn't reached a point that he wants Tsubasa's babies (unlike Karen's definition -- although he does want to look at her pantsu and grope her breasts).

What we just know is that it's "something else". From what Bakemonogatari tells us, that "something else" is for the better of the two.

[Malkuth]

Originally Posted by Dauerlutscher

I'm a little confused. So Araragi loves Hanekawa but he can't for some reason be with her so he settled for Senjougahara?

Originally Posted by Endscape

He didn't settle for Senjougahara, she got there first in a way.

Of course, Hitagi is more approachable than any of the other girl... despite popular belief (or better make-believe), she is very easy to handle compared to anyone else who requires a lot of effort to be with... but that's also the point that the trollish writer makes

[GDB]

Well that... was something. The beginning was odd, and had me worried for the quality of the rest of the special. Tsukihi's face just kept looking... wrong. But once they got past that, it was very enjoyable.

[Tempest35]

Originally Posted by Dauerlutscher

I must admit that i have not watched it because, until 30 minutes ago, I had no clue about it and I still have no clue where i can watch it.
And I only watched Bakemonogatari years ago.

So I only want to know a couple things.
- He is together with Senjougahara, but he still loves Hanekawa?
- And if the feelings for Hanekawa are not love, what else? How you guys are talking about it, makes it hard for me to believe that it is something different than love.

Maybe I'm just confused because it's to late here and I should go to sleep.^^

Yes, he is with Senjougahara, yet he still loves Hanekawa. He won't cheat on Senjougahara with Hanekawa though because his love for her isn't like that (but he does lust after her a few times, openly too; but it's mostly for show I take it).

I believe it's one of the reasons why Senjougahara is so possessive of him, she knows that there are other girls (Hanekawa) who will gladly take Araragi away from her if she doesn't keep him on his toes. Hanekawa would gladly take Araragi but unfortunately for her, he doesn't see her like that, despite his perverted antics.