Mahou Senki Lyrical Nanoha Force Manga Discussion

[Akiyoshi]

And why exactly is that a bad idea?

Hardis dreaming with infecting Teana seems to indicate the infection of one of the main characters (or even a side character for that matter) is not entirely impossible.

I could find it pretty itneresting. Ginga's brainwashing on StrikerS was a pretty cool idea but ultimately elads to nowhere. If a character with more roots than her gets infected then we could have an interesting conflict at hands xD

EDIT: Page claimed for a Happy New year were Signum can find happiness in her new life as a housewife xD

[Kaijo]

Originally Posted by Akiyoshi

S1 and A's felt much more complete by Ep 7 than any of the new running mangas xDU

Be honest... you can say that now, because it is complete. You can look back on it. And also, ep 7 of S1 and A's was over halfway; we're not in a 13 ep series, but a 26 ep series. The best you could compare it to, is ep 3 or 4 of the first two seasons... and by that point, we had so many questions. Hell, Nanoha had so many questions in A's: Who were the new bad guys? Why were they attacking? (A question she inquired of Vita more than once).

It's the first incident where mages from the TSAB are forced to change the use of magic in favour of more conventional weapons. There's a reason why the AEC-equips are new technology ...if what you're saying were true the TSAB should be far better prepared for things like this and ...as Signum demonstrated, they weren't xDU

Aki, you've been in this thread for a long time, so I KNOW you know this issue has been addressed. Development of new weapons can take years. It's only been 4 years since StrikerS, since Jail pointed out that non-magic weapons were a threat that the Bureau needed to take seriously (the sound stages and extra materials make it clear the Bureau didn't even want to take AMF training seriously). 4 years later is exactly what we can expect for them to finally start getting some prototypes for field testing.

Exactly. S1 felt a lot mroe like a magical tale and A's like an epic story with a little few political/sci-fi elements thrown into the mix. FORCE is much more cinic, grey and realistic. Some people liked the drastical chance, other don't.

Variety, as they say, is the spice of life. You don't want it to change, but... what if they had continued in the vein of S1, and didn't change for A's? What if A's had been a slow, cutesy, magical tale, instead of what we got? What if StrikerS had been a slow, cutesy tale instead of what we got? Regardless of what you think about the execution of any of these stories, they spread wide the possibilities and fleshed out a whole wide world.

Nanoha could have been another Sailor Moon. It wasn't. I, for one, am glad of that. Even if it means we get something like Vivid.

According to FORCE supplemental material Anti-Magic is rapidly becoming mainstream among criminal groups so i don't foresee a good omen for that statement. Magic will grow less and less effective as a law-enforcing instrument from now on.

Yes and no. Jail's AMF weapons are what is spreading. Those, as been shown, CAN be countered by magic and AMF training. The Eclipse-infected are the only ones that have a chance of completely shutting magic down. In the real world, when you have a threat, sometimes you do have to shift tactics in how you deal with it.

I beg you to try and justify why you think the magical feeling of FORCE is exactly the same as S1 and A's...

I'd peg it closer to A's and StrikerS, then S1 and A's. I'm almost someone who liked StrikerS, even though I acknowledge it had its faults. If there is one thing they've shown, its that magic is adaptable, and that it can be a reliable power source. Hell, the devices were sometimes using their owners as power sources (RH in the movie, Hayate in A's, Mach Caliber in StrikerS), so we don't have new ground here, either.

Okay, I'll grant that there is a bit of a different feeling in Force... but like everything else since S1, the aspects and potential for certain aspects were always there in the background. Tsuzuki is just using this story to bring them to the fore in order to explore them. Rather than give us the exact same thing over and over, he likes to explore the implication of various things.

But this doesn't mean magic isn't still being used as a staple of conflict. Just because your opponent can make thick armor that completely negate bullets, do you stop using bullets. Everything still has a use. Hell, in this age where the US can strike any location on Earth with a missile, we still have boats and fleets that travel around the world.

But I bet you, before this manga is over, we'll see a Starlight Breaker from Nanoha that will be crucial in handling a crucial confrontation. Probably fired alongside Thoma's Divide Zero or something.

And in the future, you will see people with magic fighting alongside cyborgs with their energy, and fighting alongside those with the Eclipse with their energy, fighting alongside who-knows-who-else... and you'll see Nanoha there, at 82 years old, gathering magic for a Starlight Breaker.

The universe is going to change, Aki. It's fine not to like it, but it is a fact of life. So it is something you have to learn how to deal with on your own. You're wishing for the world to stop and to freeze in time, but that won't happen. But the seeds of change were there, and unless you want to completely ignore real-world implications like most magical girl shows do(Sailor Moon, Cardcaptor Sakura), then you have to address them. In the real world, no force or power is ever 100% the answer to everything.

Unless you're like me and want to nuke the entire world.

[Akiyoshi]

Originally Posted by Kaijo

Be honest... you can say that now, because it is complete. You can look back on it. And also, ep 7 of S1 and A's was over halfway; we're not in a 13 ep series, but a 26 ep series. The best you could compare it to, is ep 3 or 4 of the first two seasons... and by that point, we had so many questions. Hell, Nanoha had so many questions in A's: Who were the new bad guys? Why were they attacking? (A question she inquired of Vita more than once).

Again, StrikerS is a very bad example of a 26 ep series as it was horribly handled in terms of time pacing. And, unlike FORCE or ViVid, we already watched that season in it's entirety and reassure it was badly administrated xDU

Originally Posted by Kaijo

Aki, you've been in this thread for a long time, so I KNOW you know this issue has been addressed. Development of new weapons can take years. It's only been 4 years since StrikerS, since Jail pointed out that non-magic weapons were a threat that the Bureau needed to take seriously (the sound stages and extra materials make it clear the Bureau didn't even want to take AMF training seriously). 4 years later is exactly what we can expect for them to finally start getting some prototypes for field testing.

*cough* ...funny lat time i checked there was 6 years after StrikerS, the AEC-equips should be more complete by the time and the 5th Gen device (you know the only worthwhile upgrade so far) is been developed at turtle speed xDU

Originally Posted by Kaijo

What if StrikerS had been a slow, cutesy tale instead of what we got?

We've got a slow, cutesy, clumsy-handle political story instead xDU (don't believe me on the cutesy part? go back and watch those filler episodes entirely filled with diabetically sugarcoated interactions between freaking everyone i mean, once in a while is fine but for a moment i tought Nanoha's cheeks where stuck in blush mode xDU).

Originally Posted by Kaijo

Regardless of what you think about the execution of any of these stories, they spread wide the possibilities and fleshed out a whole wide world.

Point. StrikerS and FORCE indeed pursued certain possibilities but the later is also closing others in exchange ..but well, for a dream to accomplished other dreams must perish and be sacrificied.

Originally Posted by Kaijo

Nanoha could have been another Sailor Moon. It wasn't. I, for one, am glad of that. Even if it means we get something like Vivid.

I'm glad for that as well (i like Sailor Moon but not that much) ...but i would like Nanoha to become an expanded Magic Knight Rayearth (one of the many reasons i love A's) ...instead of going all the way and becoming another stereotypical Gundam knock-off.

Originally Posted by Kaijo

Yes and no. Jail's AMF weapons are what is spreading. Those, as been shown, CAN be countered by magic and AMF training. The Eclipse-infected are the only ones that have a chance of completely shutting magic down. In the real world, when you have a threat, sometimes you do have to shift tactics in how you deal with it.

Interesting. Do you have any source canonly confirming that the anti-magic techonology uprising is exclusively Scaglietti's? Last time i checked the guy was stopped before he could even sign a single weapons deal xDU

Assuming he's the only guy smart enough in the freaking multiverse to develope anti-magic tech is almost as wrong as assuming Tony Stark is the only one who can make a functional powered armor xDU

Originally Posted by Kaijo

I'd peg it closer to A's and StrikerS, then S1 and A's. I'm almost someone who liked StrikerS, even though I acknowledge it had its faults. If there is one thing they've shown, its that magic is adaptable, and that it can be a reliable power source. Hell, the devices were sometimes using their owners as power sources (RH in the movie, Hayate in A's, Mach Caliber in StrikerS), so we don't have new ground here, either.

I don't really count Movies as reliable canon material (it's perfectly ok if you want to do it) because they appeared just to justify stuff that appeared in latter words that contradicts the original material. The movie was very rushed up so that's why i think they made RH a bit more independant. S1 and the first sound stages explained in good detail how Nanoha slowly but surely started to learn the different kinds of magic.

Now that we talk about origins of magic and S1 i would've liked to see more of the misteries of the first opening about Nanoha and Raising Heart in all sorts of misterious and mystical locations like a lost temple or an ominious lake ..it was very imaginative an interesting imagery ...that could make some interesting story full of magic, bravery and creativity. I don't mind the magitek but some misticism is much needed in recent times of the franchise.

Originally Posted by Kaijo

Okay, I'll grant that there is a bit of a different feeling in Force... but like everything else since S1, the aspects and potential for certain aspects were always there in the background. Tsuzuki is just using this story to bring them to the fore in order to explore them. Rather than give us the exact same thing over and over, he likes to explore the implication of various things.

As much as i doubt it will happen, i would like to see magic coming back to it's roots after FORCE. Something that forces the TSAB or at least hte heroes to search deeper in the origins of magic beyond the mathematical calculations and gadgets they use to manipulate that "energy" ...again i doubt it will happen because Tsuzuki officially confirmed his love for the Huckebein family which means we still gonna have more excuses to use less magic and more machinery for years to come -_-

Originally Posted by Kaijo

But this doesn't mean magic isn't still being used as a staple of conflict. Just because your opponent can make thick armor that completely negate bullets, do you stop using bullets. Everything still has a use. Hell, in this age where the US can strike any location on Earth with a missile, we still have boats and fleets that travel around the world.

A lame excuse, they have combat cyborgs capable to fight without magic yet they still try to use mages against mage killers xDU ...if bullets don't work against a target you stop using guns against that specific target. It's sad and tiring seeing the heroes shaming themselves in battle agianst the Hucks time after time when the cyborgs could probably do a much better job than them (after all, some people in the forum think the Numbers are the strongest charaxcters of the franchise ...i'm not among them but well xDU).

Originally Posted by Kaijo

But I bet you, before this manga is over, we'll see a Starlight Breaker from Nanoha that will be crucial in handling a crucial confrontation. Probably fired alongside Thoma's Divide Zero or something.

Maybe a variation made with the Strike Cannon but i doubt we'll see a traditional magical-powered Starlight Breaker at the end of the manga ...unless:

a) Nanoha gets to master a more primordial form of "true magic" or...

b) Raising Heart gets the revised enhacement of the %th Gen upgrade....

Originally Posted by Kaijo

And in the future, you will see people with magic fighting alongside cyborgs with their energy, and fighting alongside those with the Eclipse with their energy, fighting alongside who-knows-who-else... and you'll see Nanoha there, at 82 years old, gathering magic for a Starlight Breaker.

By the time Nanoha will be 82 magic will be long reduced to solar energy status only used to power house appliances and medical stuff ...being completely useless on the modern battlefield outside of sports tournaments ...Nanoha will be indeed using a Starlight attack ("spells" will be long gone form modern warfare) inside her nuclear mecha-armor xDU

Originally Posted by Kaijo

The universe is going to change, Aki. It's fine not to like it, but it is a fact of life. So it is something you have to learn how to deal with on your own. You're wishing for the world to stop and to freeze in time, but that won't happen. But the seeds of change were there, and unless you want to completely ignore real-world implications like most magical girl shows do(Sailor Moon, Cardcaptor Sakura), then you have to address them. In the real world, no force or power is ever 100% the answer to everything.

But this is not real world xDU This is anime-manga, i have enough of the real world in my daily life, thank you xDU

And it's fun you mention Card Captor Sakura there because it does something more interesting than just "ignoring" the real world implications, the story plays with those and develope very creative and interesting methods to justify the low influence of said "real world implications" (Clow Reed is a freaking mastermind worthy of Xanatos).

Originally Posted by Kaijo

Unless you're like me and want to nuke the entire world.

Sometimes i feel like wanting to nuke the world ...with MAGIC XD!

[Kaijo]

Originally Posted by Akiyoshi

Again, StrikerS is a very bad example of a 26 ep series as it was horribly handled in terms of time pacing. And, unlike FORCE or ViVid, we already watched that season in it's entirety and reassure it was badly administrated xDU

Whether it was good or bad was irrelevant; I'm just pointing out that we're in a 26 ep series, and thus we're still close to the beginning. I compared it with ep 3 or so of A's... and Nanoha was herself, still asking questions in ep 7 of A's!

*cough* ...funny lat time i checked there was 6 years after StrikerS, the AEC-equips should be more complete by the time and the 5th Gen device (you know the only worthwhile upgrade so far) is been developed at turtle speed xDU

Confused Vivid's 4 years with Force's 6, but if you know anything about weapon development in the real world, it takes *years* to even design and build a new gun, let alone something more complex. The Army is still working on Active-Denial technology years later. They're still working on lasers and rail guns, and barely have prototypes, despite 10 years going by (at least). But even for gradual upgrades, there are years of design, engineering, process approvals, fund acquisitions, etc. Hell, even despite Jail's attacks, I'm betting elements of the Bureau were resistant to the idea of AEC weapons, and so took time to convince them (not to mention some disarray following the death of the brain council).

Hell, look at how long it took them to make Hayate's device (Rein)! In short, the 6 year wait for prototypes has both real world analogues, and in-universe precedent.

We've got a slow, cutesy, clumsy-handle political story instead xDU (don't believe me on the cutesy part? go back and watch those filler episodes entirely filled with diabetically sugarcoated interactions between freaking everyone i mean, once in a while is fine but for a moment i tought Nanoha's cheeks where stuck in blush mode xDU).

Point, but the fact remains that if StrikerS had been another S1, there is so much we wouldn't have gotten. Which you at least acknowledge.

I'm glad for that as well (i like Sailor Moon but not that much) ...but i would like Nanoha to become an expanded Magic Knight Rayearth (one of the many reasons i love A's) ...instead of going all the way and becoming another stereotypical Gundam knock-off.

Considering the Rayearth Girls used actual mecha, I'd say Rayearth was closer to a Gundam knockoff. At least Tsuzuki hasn't done full-blown mecha yet. But despite that, Nanoha is fairly unique in its execution, so one can hardly say it is any kind of knockoff. So, I'm kinda confused... you complain about magical girl mecha, but then say you like Rayearth?

Interesting. Do you have any source canonly confirming that the anti-magic techonology uprising is exclusively Scaglietti's? Last time i checked the guy was stopped before he could even sign a single weapons deal xDU

Despite his capture, his weapons have spread. It was on one of the Force NEXT pictures, perhaps Subaru's or something. I can't find a translation of those offhand, so I couldn't tell you which one. But I'm sure someone has translations to them somewhere.

Assuming he's the only guy smart enough in the freaking multiverse to develope anti-magic tech is almost as wrong as assuming Tony Stark is the only one who can make a functional powered armor xDU

Well, Jail was also getting assistance from the Bureau, and he had the Cradle to study. Given that, it's not surprising no one else has managed to create effective anti-magic weapons. Well, Hardis, owner of a large corporation, has now. So, we have more than just one Tony Stark.

I don't really count Movies as reliable canon material (it's perfectly ok if you want to do it) because they appeared just to justify stuff that appeared in latter words that contradicts the original material. The movie was very rushed up so that's why i think they made RH a bit more independant. S1 and the first sound stages explained in good detail how Nanoha slowly but surely started to learn the different kinds of magic.

Now that we talk about origins of magic and S1 i would've liked to see more of the misteries of the first opening about Nanoha and Raising Heart in all sorts of misterious and mystical locations like a lost temple or an ominious lake ..it was very imaginative an interesting imagery ...that could make some interesting story full of magic, bravery and creativity. I don't mind the magitek but some misticism is much needed in recent times of the franchise.

You still have Hayate and Subaru being used, even if you discount the movie. And your changes would give us more of the same, that other magical girl shows did. Be careful what you wish for, because there are plenty of other magical girl shows that do this, and remain in obscurity.


Look, at this point, this conversation is mostly pointless. You have your opinion of what you would like, but you'll have to accept that you aren't getting it. You'll either have to learn to like what we have, stick with just fanfiction that floats your boat, or find another series. And you'll just have to accept that magic isn't the be-all end-all... hell, Nanoha is one of the very few series that actually addresses magic as it would exist alongside technology. Given how much both elements are woven into the narrative, I highly doubt we'll soon see an absence of either... but both have their prominent moments.

[Justin_Brett]

You should really stop talking about the number of episodes when this is a manga, honestly. They're too different things, even if some shows (One Piece) like to turn one chapter into one episode no matter what these days.

[Sansker]

By the way Reinforce Zwei was ready only 2 years after the incident in A's

[Akiyoshi]

Originally Posted by Kaijo

Whether it was good or bad was irrelevant; I'm just pointing out that we're in a 26 ep series, and thus we're still close to the beginning. I compared it with ep 3 or so of A's... and Nanoha was herself, still asking questions in ep 7 of A's!

Then you're contradicting yourself. You are comparing FORCE's current pacing to Ep 7 of S1 and A's ...and then go back and say it's like a 26 ep series like StrikerS ...and we know how StrikerS was dong it by Ep 7 xDU

Originally Posted by Kaijo

Confused Vivid's 4 years with Force's 6, but if you know anything about weapon development in the real world, it takes *years* to even design and build a new gun, let alone something more complex. The Army is still working on Active-Denial technology years later. They're still working on lasers and rail guns, and barely have prototypes, despite 10 years going by (at least). But even for gradual upgrades, there are years of design, engineering, process approvals, fund acquisitions, etc. Hell, even despite Jail's attacks, I'm betting elements of the Bureau were resistant to the idea of AEC weapons, and so took time to convince them (not to mention some disarray following the death of the brain council).

Point, but we're talking of a super-advanced quasi-magical civilization here, i wonder why such a futuristic goverment is still showing the same clumsiness and ineficience as our screwed up real life goverments xDU

Originally Posted by Kaijo

Hell, look at how long it took them to make Hayate's device (Rein)! In short, the 6 year wait for prototypes has both real world analogues, and in-universe precedent.

Go watch Sansker's answer for that xD

Originally Posted by Kaijo

Point, but the fact remains that if StrikerS had been another S1, there is so much we wouldn't have gotten. Which you at least acknowledge.

Well, yeah, at least we can agree that Tsuzuki don't knows how to do a 26 ep series ...he showl stick with 13 Ep ones xDU

Originally Posted by Kaijo

Considering the Rayearth Girls used actual mecha, I'd say Rayearth was closer to a Gundam knockoff. At least Tsuzuki hasn't done full-blown mecha yet. But despite that, Nanoha is fairly unique in its execution, so one can hardly say it is any kind of knockoff. So, I'm kinda confused... you complain about magical girl mecha, but then say you like Rayearth?

LOL ...ok you made my day with this comment xDU Rayearth may use mecha but that HARDLY makes it a Gundam knockoff. Heck, the actual mechas wasn't even part of the main plot until Season 2 xDU Even after they got them it was more a tale of an epic far away magical land whose gods just happened to take the form of gigantic mech (who still use magic to fight by the way xDU). The girls all show lots and lots of knightly virtues (specially Hikaru Shidow who is coincidentally a fire-based swordfighter) they get exposed to all sorts of crap trough the series adn we see them grow from a bunch of sweet girl to hardened badass knights by the end of the travel.

Originally Posted by Kaijo

Despite his capture, his weapons have spread. It was on one of the Force NEXT pictures, perhaps Subaru's or something. I can't find a translation of those offhand, so I couldn't tell you which one. But I'm sure someone has translations to them somewhere.

I also read those scripts and so far they only mentioned the spreading of anti-magic technology, they never mentioned Jail's name nor last name.

Originally Posted by Kaijo

Well, Jail was also getting assistance from the Bureau, and he had the Cradle to study. Given that, it's not surprising no one else has managed to create effective anti-magic weapons. Well, Hardis, owner of a large corporation, has now. So, we have more than just one Tony Stark.

And Tony had Stark Industries, the point still stands but yeah, Hardis Vandin is an exaple that the genie has finally escaped from the bottle. Anti-Magic tech is spreading and evolving without the heroes nor the society being able to do anything to stop the process.

Originally Posted by Kaijo

You still have Hayate and Subaru being used, even if you discount the movie.

And what that has to do with anything o_o?

Originally Posted by Kaijo

And your changes would give us more of the same, that other magical girl shows did. Be careful what you wish for, because there are plenty of other magical girl shows that do this, and remain in obscurity.

Just because a show is about magical girls that use magic that doesn't mean there's a lack of originality, heck, Magic Knight Rayearth is one of CLAMP's all time classics (not the size of other classics like "X" and Card Captor Sakura i admit ...but those shows *gasp* are also about magic users involved in very harsh situations). I don't like when people deems a magical girl show as "girly" just because. True, there's a lot of em who are indeed very cliche and some who can't get rid of of the excessive cuteness no matter what (i still don't catch why people like Madoka so much for example, for me the show is still kind of "meh"), but the ones who can work around the concept and make something unique of it even in spite of said cuteness (or because of said cuteness) are the ones remembered for years to come as great works of fiction. Rayearth is a magical girl show that is everything but "girly" (in fact, that was for over a decade what i considered the most badass magical girl show in existence until Nanoha A's came out ...heh, just imagine my fantasies about a fight between Signum and Hikaru xD).

Originally Posted by Kaijo

Look, at this point, this conversation is mostly pointless. You have your opinion of what you would like, but you'll have to accept that you aren't getting it. You'll either have to learn to like what we have, stick with just fanfiction that floats your boat, or find another series. And you'll just have to accept that magic isn't the be-all end-all... hell, Nanoha is one of the very few series that actually addresses magic as it would exist alongside technology. Given how much both elements are woven into the narrative, I highly doubt we'll soon see an absence of either... but both have their prominent moments.

True, things seems pretty grim for the franchise i once loved right now but as long as the "END" of the franchise isn't mentioned i'll always be back here waiting for something interesting to happen or to magic and heroism returning to it's right spot (FORCE feels like Joe Quesada's work in MARVEL xDU) ...at the end for all my complains and my pesimisms seems i'm just a fool who doesn't know when to give up ...i'll still be here waiting for better times to come.

By the way, fanfiction is barely an option as most of the actual ones are really missing the original concept of the series, generating tons of "out-of-character" moments, focusing disturbingly much on fanservice or becoming full on rip-offs of mecha-like series denigrating magic use even further than FORCE.

[Rising Dragon]

Originally Posted by Akiyoshi

Then you're contradicting yourself. You are comparing FORCE's current pacing to Ep 7 of S1 and A's ...and then go back and say it's like a 26 ep series like StrikerS ...and we know how StrikerS was dong it by Ep 7 xDU

You were the one who was comparing Force to having a 1-cour pacing, not Kaijo. Kaijo said it should be compared to a 2-cour season like StrikerS, with StrikerS' episode 7 being equivalent progress-wise to 3 or 4 episodes in a 1-cour season like Nanoha or A's. Try not to twist others' words like that again, Aki, no one appreciates it.

[Akiyoshi]

Originally Posted by Rising Dragon

You were the one who was comparing Force to having a 1-cour pacing, not Kaijo. Kaijo said it should be compared to a 2-cour season like StrikerS, with StrikerS' episode 7 being equivalent progress-wise to 3 or 4 episodes in a 1-cour season like Nanoha or A's. Try not to twist others' words like that again, Aki, no one appreciates it.

Thanks for your apporting Rising xDU

....but if you look back you'll see what i'm saying. I was complaining about StrkerS pacing and he agreed with me on it's problems. Yet at the same time says we should take FORCE as a 26 Ep installement like StrikerS while still comparing it to A's, i get what you're saying but if that's the case we should stop using "but it's only like Ep 7 of A's" as justification.

Then again that was just a suguestion, make of that what you want.

[Justin_Brett]

Oh, did Aki make the comparison first? Disregard then, that's what I'd expect from him.

[Kaijo]

Originally Posted by Justin_Brett

You should really stop talking about the number of episodes when this is a manga, honestly. They're too different things, even if some shows (One Piece) like to turn one chapter into one episode no matter what these days.

You're partially right, but I was only trying to draw the analogy of where we are in the Force story. And given 2-4 manga chapters per episode (which is standard in many anime series adapted from manga), episode 7 is about where we would be.

In short, what I've been trying to tell Aki and Sansker, is that we're still near the beginning of a story, and thus it is only natural that there are things we don't know yet. Sure, if the manga ends in the next two chapters, I'll look a little silly saying this... but my gut says otherwise. At any rate, having things we don't know is only an issue, if they are important to the plot and left unresolved by the time the story ends.

Originally Posted by Akiyoshi

Then you're contradicting yourself. You are comparing FORCE's current pacing to Ep 7 of S1 and A's ...and then go back and say it's like a 26 ep series like StrikerS ...and we know how StrikerS was dong it by Ep 7 xDU

Aki, you're deliberately trying to twist what I am saying. Don't. You're better than that. You know damn well how and why I came up with the 7 episode figure, and that I applied it solely to a 26 episode series. The only reason I mentioned ep 7 of A's, was to point out that, even by the over halfyway-point, there were things we didn't know (the masked guy).

Go watch Sansker's answer for that xD

My point exactly. 2 years, for a device they already knew how to make. Which kinda puts the 6 years for a completely new type of device in a more realistic light. And even then, there is so much difficulty using it, that it may not be mass-produced anyway.

Making new things is hard. The Air Force's ABL (Air Borne Laser) project was started in 1996. The first ground firing of the unit was in 2004... 8 years later. If you can't wrap your head around how long it takes to develop things, then the concept will forever escape you.

LOL ...ok you made my day with this comment xDU Rayearth may use mecha but that HARDLY makes it a Gundam knockoff. Heck, the actual mechas wasn't even part of the main plot until Season 2 xDU Even after they got them it was more a tale of an epic far away magical land whose gods just happened to take the form of gigantic mech (who still use magic to fight by the way xDU). The girls all show lots and lots of knightly virtues (specially Hikaru Shidow who is coincidentally a fire-based swordfighter) they get exposed to all sorts of crap trough the series adn we see them grow from a bunch of sweet girl to hardened badass knights by the end of the travel.

I don't want to get into a in-depth discussion of Rayearth, as this isn't the thread for it... but you were the one who said mecha in magical girl anime was bad... and then brought up Rayearth as an MG series that was good... despite it having mecha. However minor they are, that's still more mecha than Nanoha has.

And Rayearth is known solely for it's twist ending. In fact, that was the whole idea behind the punch factor; up until that point, it had been fairly typical of a magical fantasy story, almost cliche. Because it did something different, it is remembered.

*You* may want the standard cliche fantasy story, but that doesn't mean everyone else does. And if you want that, you have plenty of choices. For those of us who like something different, Nanoha is all we have. Why must everything be the same? Why can't you let people have their one series that is different?

I also read those scripts and so far they only mentioned the spreading of anti-magic technology, they never mentioned Jail's name nor last name.

Fine. You can believe that there is someone else out there making AMF weapons. You're right, it might not be jail. Probably a magical pink unicorn making them, is my guess.

And what that has to do with anything o_o?

Aki, this was one of the points you initially brought up, because it was a complaint you had about Force reducing the characters to simply being batteries. If you can't keep track of your own points, then stop trying to bring them up. I pointed out how the characters were already being used as batteries by their devices.

Besides, we had batteries in A's, too. They were called cartridges.

[Akiyoshi]

Originally Posted by Kaijo

In short, what I've been trying to tell Aki and Sansker, is that we're still near the beginning of a story, and thus it is only natural that there are things we don't know yet. Sure, if the manga ends in the next two chapters, I'll look a little silly saying this... but my gut says otherwise. At any rate, having things we don't know is only an issue, if they are important to the plot and left unresolved by the time the story ends.

Somehow i agree that the story still have too many loose trends to be knitted to end so suddenly ...the fun part that according to writers we're already past half the season xDU So let's wait to see if your gut is right xDU

Originally Posted by Kaijo

Aki, you're deliberately trying to twist what I am saying. Don't. You're better than that. You know damn well how and why I came up with the 7 episode figure, and that I applied it solely to a 26 episode series. The only reason I mentioned ep 7 of A's, was to point out that, even by the over halfyway-point, there were things we didn't know (the masked guy).

You never emtnioned the masked guys before but i get your point. Still i don't see the point in claiming FORCE is a 26 Ep season and still treating the pacing as if it were a 13 Ep season. But well, it's not as big as an issue i can live with this i guess.

Originally Posted by Kaijo

My point exactly. 2 years, for a device they already knew how to make. Which kinda puts the 6 years for a completely new type of device in a more realistic light. And even then, there is so much difficulty using it, that it may not be mass-produced anyway.

But those are already being mass produced, the Raptors all have their own AEc-Equips and the TSAB started giving Strike Cannons like candy. Both that and the War Hammer already entered mass-production stage (with the Fortress Mode apparently catching up with those in recent chapters) ...it's only a matter of time before the Gladiator follows those ...the only equip apparently safe from said procedure is the Sword Breaker because it was made to use Subaru's exclusive abilities to work (making it a truer upgrade than any of the other AEC-Equips).

Originally Posted by Kaijo

Making new things is hard. The Air Force's ABL (Air Borne Laser) project was started in 1996. The first ground firing of the unit was in 2004... 8 years later. If you can't wrap your head around how long it takes to develop things, then the concept will forever escape you.

...and i'm here questioning why i should think or know about that while watching a shounen action series xDU A's never needed such contrived homework from the audience to work as a story xDU

Originally Posted by Kaijo

I don't want to get into a in-depth discussion of Rayearth, as this isn't the thread for it... but you were the one who said mecha in magical girl anime was bad... and then brought up Rayearth as an MG series that was good... despite it having mecha. However minor they are, that's still more mecha than Nanoha has.

Who's twisting words now Kaijo? I never told mecha was bad in a magical girl show (Heck i even praised Nanoha's earlier seasons for their ability to blend mecha-aspects alongside touching tales of epic magical battles). what i was accusing FORCE about is taking out the aspects who made the franchise unique and getting more and more closer to become a full on mecha-show filled with boring finanacial/political stuff going on and reducing the heroes from great warriors to mere tools.

Originally Posted by Kaijo

And Rayearth is known solely for it's twist ending. In fact, that was the whole idea behind the punch factor; up until that point, it had been fairly typical of a magical fantasy story, almost cliche. Because it did something different, it is remembered.

Nothing more false. It's a twist "ending"was just the end of Season 1, it's was a very shocking twist indeed and one of the greatest twist in anime/manga history by the way ...but saying that's the only selling point is an exaggeration, if that were the case it would be pointless to watch the rest of the series ...just skip straight to the shocking ending xDU And the old school Rayearth fandom won't let me lie about that, the series used the RPG/Epic-fantasy cluiches to tell a very entertaining story ...sure the greatest subversion was S1's ending but there was much more of that before and after said event

To make an interesting note, Season 2 do dealt with some political issues as the ending of the first season left the magical land vulnerable to armies coming from countries coming from neighboor planets. But instead of going yadda, yadda on conferences, conspirations and stuff it managed to take it on a more action-oriented and epic way.

Yeah, Rayearth's ending was one it's greatest contributions to the mahou shoujo genre, but wasn't the only one, it also shown their work in showing magical girls who can take direct blows, bleed and carry on some quite rough and nasty fights (Hikaru in particular, the girl must end up brutally and bloodilly beaten up at least once per season xDU) ...as also how being alone in an alien world can affect a psyque as influentiable and innocent as the one from a young teenager (Season 2 is mostly about dealing with the trauma and grief caused by the events of season 1). Sorry if i got a bit overcarried about this issue but Rayearth was one of my key otaku-forming experiences ....and probably one of the reasons i got hooked up with the Nanoha franchise as well ...Nanoha A's and specially the Wolkenritter brought me back so many awesome memories.

Originally Posted by Kaijo

*You* may want the standard cliche fantasy story, but that doesn't mean everyone else does. And if you want that, you have plenty of choices. For those of us who like something different, Nanoha is all we have. Why must everything be the same? Why can't you let people have their one series that is different?

If you read my last answer to you i think that's already answered. I still like Nanoha or at least remind fondly when the series showed me things that making my blood burn and my heart pump in excitement ...as i've said, i'm still foolishly waiting for more of those things to happen.

Originally Posted by Kaijo

Fine. You can believe that there is someone else out there making AMF weapons. You're right, it might not be jail. Probably a magical pink unicorn making them, is my guess.

Princess Cadence is making AMF-weapons o_O!? ...ok that was a lame joke, forget about it xDU

But in a "realistic" enviroment, like the ones you mentioned, it will be foolish to assume that once a technology that proves to be higly successfull against the stablished law-enforcing methods other criminal groups will not try to cash on said new tech to rise their success chances on their own operations and goals. In fiction (specially in american comics) this is one of the most likely to happen scenarios, just as "some people" (the Grendels at least so far) are trying to put their claws on AEC-Equipement it would be no surprise EC virus or Divider technology is currently being experimented on by more groups aside of Vandin Corp. in order to ensure an efective anti-mage response.

Originally Posted by Kaijo

Aki, this was one of the points you initially brought up, because it was a complaint you had about Force reducing the characters to simply being batteries. If you can't keep track of your own points, then stop trying to bring them up. I pointed out how the characters were already being used as batteries by their devices.

Both being special cases and in Suabru's specific case it was kind of her objective being a combat cyborg and all (and she's from StrikerS ...the season that started said tendency).

Originally Posted by Kaijo

Besides, we had batteries in A's, too. They were called cartridges.

Yeah, mini-magical shells made as small ad-ons for characters to enhace their already impressive powers ....very different from AEC-Weaponry who ignores said powersets in favour of set programed attacks with Sword Breaker being the only exception ...and Bardiche as the only surviving member of the device cast who managed to keep it's protagonism and usefulness. You also saw this adressed before, devices were there to aid their masters into developing their own exclusive brand of magic while AEc-units work under standarized conditions making them into impersonal weaponry that anyone can use just the same.

If you're fan of stuff like Macross and the like i guess you have no trouble with that ...but some people liked the variety of characters and powers as also the sense of "uniqueness" each fighter and it's style had (in fact that's one of the few saving graces of ViVid, i do like how it's trying to make an effort to introduce new and crative ways to use magic ...but the knowledge of all those cool magical styles being useless by the time FORCE comes around reduces the enjoyment quite a bit, tough).

[Kaijo]

Aki, this is mostly going off topic, so I'll just end it now.

I will say that, yes, it appears I misunderstood your Rayearth mecha comment a bit. But considering that Season 2 was mostly all mecha combat, I can hardly find any complaint how Nanoha is being handled. Especially when the creator is a big Super Robot Wars fan and based Nanoha off it. It's no surprise, then, that Nanoha has some mecha elements. New weapons fit that mold, and thus the Force "changes" are just what we should have expected.

Bottom line: Force will continue as is. You can choose to like it or not, read it or not. Just understand it won't go the way you want. Force isn't 100% going the way I want, either, but the last step of learning to deal with any kind of grief, is acceptance.

I don't know what the future holds for this franchise, but we just had an A's movie released, and Innocent seems to be more magical girly, so there's that. There is also a series of games that has magical girly fights. And perhaps you'll get another movie that isn't StrikerS, but that continues another magical girly adventure.

So, I'd ask that you stow your doom and gloom, but then again, given your past reactions to certain things, I'd be asking for the impossible, wouldn't I?

[Akiyoshi]

Originally Posted by Kaijo

I don't know what the future holds for this franchise, but we just had an A's movie released, and Innocent seems to be more magical girly, so there's that. There is also a series of games that has magical girly fights. And perhaps you'll get another movie that isn't StrikerS, but that continues another magical girly adventure.

The one talking to a wall seems to be me, after expalining myself in carefull details about what i like about this franchise you seem to be stuck in pushing "magically girly" stuff down my throat as if it were the only thing i expect from this franchise xDU ...even after i stated why i don't like either Innocent nor ViVid that much (they took the concept of the franchise too far on the "girly" direction while FORCE is taking it too far on the "grim-mech" direction) ...why i can't have both a magical epic tale and some good mecha-inspired action wrapped togheter in one great epic story like in the good old times T-T?

I don't hate mecha nor i thing that much about fluffy magical girls (in that sense i mostly agree with you, the ones who manage to makes to propose something unique are the ones that stick with me, Card Captor Sakura and Rayearth both offer unique plot elements never touched before them ....in fact, CCS is the rightfull predecessor of Nanoha's generation). Again, what made the show great for me was the unique blending of BOTH elements into one awesome work. Ripping those elements appart is what i consider to be foolish ...seems this was dragged so long you just forgot what was my initial complain at all.

I'm done for now because you're right with this growing a bit far from FORCE's plot ...you're also right in that i'll be here to apport new viewpoints as more chapters comes out and i see how they turn out to be in terms of plot-developement.

[Sansker]

Then to return to the thread to its original purpose, and to take matters on better directions, why we don't talk about something I think we haven't talk this far or at least not too much: what we like in Force. (This should be a short one to me) Because I did think there is some good down there, otherwise I would not even start with the manga.

[Justin_Brett]

Why didn't you bring that up to begin with?

[Koveras Alvane]

Originally Posted by Sansker

what we like in Force.

You are breaking the unwritten law of all internet discussion platforms at once right now: never say anything good about anything.

[Sansker]

Originally Posted by Justin_Brett

Why didn't you bring that up to begin with?

Koveras Alvane already answer that but lets not keep a discussion on: "why now?" and focus here.

[Akiyoshi]

Well, as i also mentioned before ...FORCE do have it's own merits (even if those are usually overshadowed by it's flaws).

The concept of the Huckebein family is actually pretty amusing but the manga seems to ping pong around how dire their situation really is (sometimes they try to be tragic characters while other times they seem to genuinely enjoy their abilities and situation just fine xDU). Among them some members also have interesting potential for developement ...to me Veyron is so far the most interesting of them with Curren as a close second (plus Curren fit part of my desire for an ultimate badass with no equal) they seems to keep some key misterioes to themselves and Curren, while not super brilliant, gets to keep things intriguing about her plan.

Other good thing about FORCE culd be Fate & Bardiche's developement ...it was very welcome that she managed to keep most of her original powerset and character traits (in direct contrast with Signum and others) also, so far she has been shown to be S6's most competent member on what we've seen of the Eclipse case so far ...managing to keep up not only with Cypha but also with a reacted Deville (Fate failed to do any significant damage but also managed to avoid being injured herself while keeping the teleporting hulk at bay).

As much as i hate what this season has done to Signum i find interesting her sisterly bonding with Tohma. I know this will be soon overshadowed by his relationship with Subaru but at least it's nice to see Signum can develope relationships outside the battlefield with people other than her allies or foes on the battlefield. Usually when a badass character stops being a badass the plot compensates said loss by expanding it's character and giving it more dimensional developement ...i doubt we get to see that but at least Signum's guilt over her defeat seem to be good intentioned in that direction.

Tohma himself, despite some issues i have with him, came as a breath of fresh air on the franchise ...i always wanted guys doing soemthing more than being punching bags or minor characters but i never expected one of them would actually get a star role in a Nanoha season ....my main beef with Tohma is not about his gender but more likely about his initial blandness and the clumcsy efforts the story made to justify his presence (turns out most of the old cast already knows and like him? ...C'moooon!) but the kid slowly started making his own merits ...it's a good intentioned boy with a harsh past and an internal conflict ...the conflict so far is mostly an excuse as we don't see the effects of it but his good natured side is convincing enough for me, his desire to help the Huckebein wasn't instantly well received by the rest of the cast and the story doesn't pit him as a saint for that which is something i also liked ...it's adressed Tohma is a young boy who is still emtoinal and influentiable and thus prone to commit mistakes. Nanoha was always a wee bit too mature, secure and self-confident and the story never discussed her actions or descicions no matter how reckless those were ...granted, it's one of her defining characteristics and i love her for doing it (i loooove do-right heroes xD!) and what i like about Tohma is that he's trying to be his own character (the key word being "trying") instead of a Mini-Nanoha clone like Subaru. One of the things i like about his relationship with Signum is that is a newly fresh started relationship so i can witness the develope of their bond ..instead of it happening of-screen and the narration trying to force me into feeling something about stuff i don't really care.

More recently the Grendel Family, say what you want about them ...they're goofy, they're weak, they're a bunch of reckles bimbos ...but even in spite of that thye managed to twist the story which is something i'm really greatefull for (the utterly annoying "it's all about the Huckebein" atmosphere that reigned for most of the story finally eased a bit xD). They appeared as the classic "Team Rocket" squad of comic relief villains but in an interesting subversion is revealed they're in fact competent foes enough to be a threat despite their goofiness and mroe shockingly that Carter (the goofiest of them all) have started showing hidden depths indicating his spot as leader is not only by luck or because of the other girl's genre blindness ...he's a capable leader and is currently unfazed even when they seem to be in a dire spot with the TSAB right now (not only he keeps a cool head but is able to smile widely in the face of disgrace which is a goddamn awesome quality i would wish to have). So far he and his team have captured my attention and i'm eager to know what the story have prepared for them. They fact it's also stablished they're the weakest villain team also let me to ease my expectations on them and be impressed by their future planst to overcome obstacles. Lolo and Quinn need to be fleshed out more and so far i find Maria's interactions with Carter pretty amusing xD

[Kurohane]

Originally Posted by Akiyoshi

Well, as i also mentioned before ...FORCE do have it's own merits (even if those are usually overshadowed by it's flaws).

The concept of the Huckebein family is actually pretty amusing but the manga seems to ping pong around how dire their situation really is (sometimes they try to be tragic characters while other times they seem to genuinely enjoy their abilities and situation just fine xDU). Among them some members also have interesting potential for developement ...to me Veyron is so far the most interesting of them with Curren as a close second (plus Curren fit part of my desire for an ultimate badass with no equal) they seems to keep some key misterioes to themselves and Curren, while not super brilliant, gets to keep things intriguing about her plan.

Veyron is most fleshed out considering he is the first to get a flashback, albeit brief. Yeah, looking forward to more of their interactions. The focus will probably shift on Fifth, because she wasn't doing well last time we saw her.

Originally Posted by Akiyoshi

Other good thing about FORCE culd be Fate & Bardiche's developement ...it was very welcome that she managed to keep most of her original powerset and character traits (in direct contrast with Signum and others) also, so far she has been shown to be S6's most competent member on what we've seen of the Eclipse case so far ...managing to keep up not only with Cypha but also with a reacted Deville (Fate failed to do any significant damage but also managed to avoid being injured herself while keeping the teleporting hulk at bay).

Yeah, I could not see Fate using AEC equipment. I'm glad she gets to keep using Bardiche.

Originally Posted by Akiyoshi

Tohma himself, despite some issues i have with him, came as a breath of fresh air on the franchise ...i always wanted guys doing soemthing more than being punching bags or minor characters but i never expected one of them would actually get a star role in a Nanoha season ....my main beef with Tohma is not about his gender but more likely about his initial blandness and the clumcsy efforts the story made to justify his presence (turns out most of the old cast already knows and like him? ...C'moooon!) but the kid slowly started making his own merits ...it's a good intentioned boy with a harsh past and an internal conflict ...the conflict so far is mostly an excuse as we don't see the effects of it but his good natured side is convincing enough for me, his desire to help the Huckebein wasn't instantly well received by the rest of the cast and the story doesn't pit him as a saint for that which is something i also liked ...it's adressed Tohma is a young boy who is still emtoinal and influentiable and thus prone to commit mistakes.

His wanting to help the Huckbein still isn't well recieved by the others. Iris has to keep reminding him of the implacations, and the team doesn't want him to fell anymore attached to them as stated in Ch. 20.

Originally Posted by Akiyoshi

More recently the Grendel Family, say what you want about them ...they're goofy, they're weak, they're a bunch of reckles bimbos ...but even in spite of that thye managed to twist the story which is something i'm really greatefull for (the utterly annoying "it's all about the Huckebein" atmosphere that reigned for most of the story finally eased a bit xD). They appeared as the classic "Team Rocket" squad of comic relief villains but in an interesting subversion is revealed they're in fact competent foes enough to be a threat despite their goofiness and mroe shockingly that Carter (the goofiest of them all) have started showing hidden depths indicating his spot as leader is not only by luck or because of the other girl's genre blindness ...he's a capable leader and is currently unfazed even when they seem to be in a dire spot with the TSAB right now (not only he keeps a cool head but is able to smile widely in the face of disgrace which is a goddamn awesome quality i would wish to have). So far he and his team have captured my attention and i'm eager to know what the story have prepared for them. They fact it's also stablished they're the weakest villain team also let me to ease my expectations on them and be impressed by their future planst to overcome obstacles. Lolo and Quinn need to be fleshed out more and so far i find Maria's interactions with Carter pretty amusing xD

Marina's playing the role of the tsundere. Marina said that all four of them were "deliquents", while being transported to SS6's base. Most likely, they were outcasted orphans that the public wouldn't miss if they went missing. That's likely how they were able to get drawn into Vandein corparation and become EC infected.

As for my own two cents, I like the concept of anti-magic and how the wide use of magic, and even ecountering magic is brought into question. Aswe learned in StrikerS, to prevent the use of mass developed and destructive weapons as before, magic was put into use as a replacement as it can be controlled how lethal it is. Also, magic serves as daily function and used to power everything in Midchilda. This wide use became a bite in the but when Jail's AMF drones came into play. I'm hoping this forces an inquiry if all this magic is a good thing. I also mentioned a person's encounter with magic to be fortunate or not. With Nanoha, it was a fortunate encounter. Fate was at first unfortunate, but changed to fortunate after meeting Nanoha. Finally, Hayate's was fortunate as she met her familty through it. We never looked iinto a person's encounter that was unfortunate. I believe we'll see that soon.