Gundam Seed/Seed Destiny General Discussion Thread

[Skye629]

Originally Posted by Gundamx

Djbril was sooo useless as final boss(or even mid boss) unlike Muruta Azrael...

As far as Federation "bosses" went Djibril was rather tame compared to how Azrael was portrayed, Azrael immediately made every viewer hate him (kudos for that lol), while Djibril....meh, he was despicable but nowhere near as hateful

Originally Posted by Aquaman OS

True, although Djbril was insanely easy to predict. He'd just keep on throwing out atrocity after atrocity and pretty much painted the perfect picture of Durandal being the good guy.

With Lacus, he seemed to try to immediately kill her with that hit squad, so that his fake Lacus would be unopposed. But even after they got away he knew that so long as he sent Minerva against Orb Kira would interfere regardless of how it would make him look, making it all the easier for him to order Freedom destroyed without looking like the bad guy. And Kira's intefering would make Shinn hate him all the more, so his own personal super Gundam pilot would get the drive to beat him.

As for Athrun, he clearly wanted Athrun on his side and did his best to play on his sympathy's and daddy issues (note in the latest ep how he gets Talia to mention they have no more MS pilots and then looks at Athrun afterwards.) But Athrun was too loyal to Kira and company. But by the time he had had enough it was seemingly too late and Athrun had nobody to help him, allowing Shinn to easily pick him off during his escape. And Athrun really in the end was a minor player while he was with Durandal.

His only really flaw was underestimating Kira and Athrun's Jesus skills that let them survive cockpit stabs. Kira survived, made it to save Lacus, got SF, and suddenly Durandal had a major thorn in his side.

About Djibril, true

Lacus and co: mostly correct. I would say though that he was NOT banking on Shinn to solely take out Kira, that would have been too much of a gamble

Athrun is a failure of a supporting character imo, hes a great pilot, but thats about it, he does not have any strong convictions whatsoever

On the last point, who would ever take cockpit stabs into account XD, all Durandal wanted was them dead, and Im sure he would have taken into account the probability of failure, just in case

Originally Posted by RES-01 Perses Gundam

Well, it was harder for Logos/EF not to do what he had predicted of them to. Being extremists, there's a certain degree of predictability to their behaviour. It's as if Logos/EF were a monster run amok, and Durandal/ZAFT had the tranquilizer to stop it. By deliberating missing his shots, he only served to antagonise the monster further, and by controlling the number of shots he missed, he could affect the amount of devastation that the monster is about to unleash. And when Logos/EF served its purpose, all Durandal really had to do was to aim at its heart (Logos) and every bit of resistance the EF could summon falls apart.

Nice analogy

[Gundamx]

Originally Posted by Skye629

As far as Federation "bosses" went Djibril was rather tame compared to how Azrael was portrayed, Azrael immediately made every viewer hate him (kudos for that lol), while Djibril....meh, he was despicable but nowhere near as hateful

That normal since Azrael was mastermind
while Djibril was nothing but puppet
(People hate mastermind more than puppet )

[quagmire]

Freedom was stabbed in the nuclear reactor, not the cockpit.

[Aquaman OS]

Originally Posted by Skye629

Athrun is a failure of a supporting character imo, hes a great pilot, but thats about it, he does not have any strong convictions whatsoever

I'd argue that's exactly why Durandal couldn't control him. Unlike Shinn who Durandal manipulated to be his lapdog that would never ever question him by constantly praising him and playing on his desire to feel strong and important, while his own black and white world view meant he could easily be made self rightous and firm that Zaft were the only good guys and anyone not with Zaft deserved a horrible painful death, Athrun had already had those feelings basically crushed by his experiences in the first war. He knows war is terrible, neither side is really all that much better than the other and has no desire to really kill anyone, because he knows it didn't bring him any real joy when he "avenged" Nicol.

Of course one could argue that any hope of Athrun being effective for Zaft ended when Orb and Kira became their enemies. He obviously didn't have the desire to fight them and even them inadvertantly killing Heine couldn't make him totally forsake them. Even when Kira was apparantly dead Athrun still was defending him, which is when Durandal finally decided he couldn't control him.

Really in the end Athrun needent had bothered. He'd have been better off not going to Plant at all, and simply staying in Orb and leaving with AA when the ASH team attacked them. Of course then there would be zero connection between team Minerva and AA. They'd just be faceless opponent's to each other.

If anything Athrun was an interesting parallel to Shinn. While Athrun tried to convince himself to rejoin Zaft because Plant was his homeland and he should do his best because it was in his blood, it was pretty clear his true loyalties lied with Orb. Meanwhile Shinn forsook his homeland Orb completely and entirely, and jumped ship to serving Zaft without ever looking back. Although how much of his loyalty was simply to Durandal himself rather than Plant is unclear.

[Kirayuki]

Originally Posted by Aquaman OS

If anything Athrun was an interesting parallel to Shinn. While Athrun tried to convince himself to rejoin Zaft because Plant was his homeland and he should do his best because it was in his blood, it was pretty clear his true loyalties lied with Orb. Meanwhile Shinn forsook his homeland Orb completely and entirely, and jumped ship to serving Zaft without ever looking back. Although how much of his loyalty was simply to Durandal himself rather than Plant is unclear.

Actually, if you add Kira in the middle their relationship is pretty interesting.

One could argue that the reason why those two doesn't have clear view on what they really want is because they are strongly shackled by their outside environments (Athrun is shackled and torn between his loyalty to his country and friends, while Shinn is shackled by a wish for no war that get corrupted by strong hatred for his original country).

On the comparison, Kira is self-righteous on his own way. Born as Coordinator and live in neutral country, fight his own race in order to protect his friends (despite being told here and there from some people), ultimately discovering what he really want. I know Kira's situation is different from them, but they should probably learn one or two from this guy sometimes .

One have to wonder what would happen if Durandal just ignore he and Lacus.

[S.Freedom]

Durandal couldn't ignore Kira/Lacus even if he wanted to. They where too much of a wild card, especially after he trotted out Meer as Lacus. That was a proverbial slap in the face to the real Lacus. He knew once Meer was out and about Lacus wouldn't remain in hiding. So he made a preemptive strike in the hopes of removing Lacus before she became a threat to his plans.

The fact Kira was there to prevent his attempt from being successful was an unforeseen outcome. And became even more so once the Archangel launched and "kidnapped" Cagailli. But that's where Athrun was supposed to come in. Durandal intended to have him train Shinn and perhaps to a lesser extent Rey and Luna to be able to take Kira down. Think about the trouble Kira would have had against the Destiny, Legend, and Impulse 3 on 1 had Athrun actually succeded in Durandal's plan for him.

[Aquaman OS]

Actually if Durandal had ignored them at first, Kira Lacus and Andy would have migrated to Plant, to escape the anti coordinator Orb aligned EA leaving their powerful Freedom and battleship back on Earth. That was their plan, before the hit squad showed up.

From that point, fake Lacus or not, they wouldn't have really been in a position to do much at first. Kira wouldn't have been able to make his interventions, which means Athrun wouldn't have been conflicted, and Minerva would have wasted the Orb fleet. And Durandal would pretty much have run unopposed on Earth.

Cagalli would have been stuck in Orb as the Seiran's puppet, and Orb would not have had the strength to resist Zaft invading.

And assuming Durandal didn't have Lacus located in Plant and killed, where Kira would have been helpless to save her. And even if they did somehow manage to link up with Terminal and get SF they would be in a severely weakened state with no Athrun, Mwu, AA or Orb forces to help them.

This is assuming Durandal didn't have them brought in and sweet talk them into siding with him instead of sending a hit squad, as they mentioned they actually would have been supporting what he was saying at first, except that they were fairly certain he tried to have them killed which meant he probably had something up his sleeve he thought they would oppose him on. And if that was case Durandal would have outright won, as he'd have just about everyone powerful on his side. And by the time it was time for the Destiny Plan, it would be too late for them to resist.

Really, Durandal kind of shot himself in foot on that one.

[Kirayuki]

Originally Posted by S.Freedom

Durandal couldn't ignore Kira/Lacus even if he wanted to. They where too much of a wild card, especially after he trotted out Meer as Lacus. That was a proverbial slap in the face to the real Lacus. He knew once Meer was out and about Lacus wouldn't remain in hiding. So he made a preemptive strike in the hopes of removing Lacus before she became a threat to his plans.

Would she ? I don't think she would just brush it as something purely evil, not to mention at the beginning of shows the use of Meer was still subtle. Considering that even after being attacked, Kira himself is still unsure whether Durandal is really evil or not (after meeting with Athrun).

To be honest, I found that Durandal's way of executing his plan is a bit radical as the show keep moving forward. Probably things could go smoother had he choose a diplomatic route.

The fact Kira was there to prevent his attempt from being successful was an unforeseen outcome. And became even more so once the Archangel launched and "kidnapped" Cagailli. But that's where Athrun was supposed to come in. Durandal intended to have him train Shinn and perhaps to a lesser extent Rey and Luna to be able to take Kira down. Think about the trouble Kira would have had against the Destiny, Legend, and Impulse 3 on 1 had Athrun actually succeded in Durandal's plan for him.

I think you mean the fact that Freedom was kept there. Kira by himself is powerless

I see what they planned for this, but I'd consider this a failure on writing part. I don't really buy it that a man who can orchestra the grand scheme of thing like this can overlook a possibility that a suit that make one of the wild card dangerous in the first place is being kept there.

[S.Freedom]

Well I never said Duramdal was perfect or knew everything. Just that he was dang close. And the few bits of info he didn't know about or things he otherwise over/underestimated about came back to bite him in the arse. With Athrun being a prime example of that. He figured he could play Athrun like a fiddle, and for awhile he did. It's just that once he spoke to Kira/Lacus about things Athrun became resistant to his control.

And Lacus/Kira/Andrew where only "thinking" about going to the plants. They hadn't made a final decision about it just leaning towards it. And Andrew at least strikes me as the type to do do diligence about going there. After all anything that sounds to good to be true usually is to good to be true. And he's just cynical enough to think along those lines.

[Obelisk ze Tormentor]

Originally Posted by monster

Hmm, you know, the fact that Phantom Pain didn't even know about the Impulse does make it seem like the other three mobile suits were "discovered" via a controlled leak of information.

If you want to know how the data about the new ZAFT’s Gundams were leaked, here’s a little info:
The data was taken by a spy named Leon Ludwic who diguised himself as one of the natural journalists which was granted the permission to cover the performance of the new Gundams (one of them is Jess Rable, journalist-pilot of the Astray Outframe). After Leon’s stolen data was retrieved by a pilot from Intelligence Organization (IO), his spacecraft was destroyed by the same pilot using N Dagger N. The event happen some time before the raid in Armory One in Destiny's first episode.

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In case you want to know how N Dagger N looks:

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In the picture below, you will see Matis, the leader of IO, only receiving the data of Chaos, Abyss, and Gaia. Somehow, Leon the spy didn’t get the data on Impulse. After receiving the data, Matis most likely gave it directly to Djibril and Phantom Pain.

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After all that, there’s still no solid evidence about Durandal’s direct involvement in the data leak. But, the invitation and permission granted to those journalists were from Durandal himself so...

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[monster]

Originally Posted by quagmire

Freedom was stabbed in the nuclear reactor, not the cockpit.

Was it? I thought the reactor is in the upper back, above the main thrusters?

Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor

After all that, there’s still no solid evidence about Durandal’s direct involvement in the data leak. But, the invitation and permission granted to those journalists were from Durandal himself so...

Indeed. And there are two things I'm wondering now:

First of all, if the journalists were there to cover the new Gundams, why did Cagalli seemed surprised that they were there? They shouldn't be a secret. (EDIT: I suppose the journalists could still be under some form of an NDA until the official launch, which I believe they said would've been the day after Cagalli arrived at Armory One.)

Secondly, shouldn't the Impulse be front and center in the display? Why was its data not included?

Oh, and thanks for the images. I've seen the N Dagger N, but I don't recall this particular story. Is it from Destiny Astray or some of the latter Astrays?

[cyberdemon]

Originally Posted by Aquaman OS

Actually if Durandal had ignored them at first, Kira Lacus and Andy would have migrated to Plant, to escape the anti coordinator Orb aligned EA leaving their powerful Freedom and battleship back on Earth. That was their plan, before the hit squad showed up.

From that point, fake Lacus or not, they wouldn't have really been in a position to do much at first. Kira wouldn't have been able to make his interventions, which means Athrun wouldn't have been conflicted, and Minerva would have wasted the Orb fleet. And Durandal would pretty much have run unopposed on Earth.

Cagalli would have been stuck in Orb as the Seiran's puppet, and Orb would not have had the strength to resist Zaft invading.

And assuming Durandal didn't have Lacus located in Plant and killed, where Kira would have been helpless to save her. And even if they did somehow manage to link up with Terminal and get SF they would be in a severely weakened state with no Athrun, Mwu, AA or Orb forces to help them.

This is assuming Durandal didn't have them brought in and sweet talk them into siding with him instead of sending a hit squad, as they mentioned they actually would have been supporting what he was saying at first, except that they were fairly certain he tried to have them killed which meant he probably had something up his sleeve he thought they would oppose him on. And if that was case Durandal would have outright won, as he'd have just about everyone powerful on his side. And by the time it was time for the Destiny Plan, it would be too late for them to resist.

Really, Durandal kind of shot himself in foot on that one.

having Lacus come to the PLANTS was never really an option for him because she's such a wild card that it could easily blow up in his face. He probably realized that her coming back to the PLANTS due to the situation in ORB was actually pretty decent. Her coming to the PLANTS would ruin his puppet Lacus who was meant to be his yes woman though. Lacus herself is strong willed and wouldn't necessarily side with him when he needs her to. He probably also realized that Lacus would never side with him on the Destiny Plan which he was his main goal. So making sure she couldn't interfere was probably a better option in his mind than risking her willfullness.

Originally Posted by monster

Was it? I thought the reactor is in the upper back, above the main thrusters? Indeed. And there are two things I'm wondering now:

First of all, if the journalists were there to cover the new Gundams, why did Cagalli seemed surprised that they were there? They shouldn't be a secret. (EDIT: I suppose the journalists could still be under some form of an NDA until the official launch, which I believe they said would've been the day after Cagalli arrived at Armory One.)

Secondly, shouldn't the Impulse be front and center in the display? Why was its data not included?

Oh, and thanks for the images. I've seen the N Dagger N, but I don't recall this particular story. Is it from Destiny Astray or some of the latter Astrays?

I always viewed the Impluse as Durandal's trump card against Kira. It's a machine whose survivability is perfectly suited for dealing with Kira's fighting style. So he didn't release the data on it to make sure it wouldn't become part of his planned Gundam jacking. Of all the Gundams, he needed the Impulse the most in his plans until Kira was taken care of. That's why as soon as the Freedom was taken down, he was all ready to give Shinn a new machine. It had outlived it's purpose and he could release the more powerful Gundams in his possession without worrying that Kira would tear them apart since they aren't as flexible as the Impulse in dealing with missing limbs.

[Obelisk ze Tormentor]

Originally Posted by monster

First of all, if the journalists were there to cover the new Gundams, why did Cagalli seemed surprised that they were there? They shouldn't be a secret. (EDIT: I suppose the journalists could still be under some form of an NDA until the official launch, which I believe they said would've been the day after Cagalli arrived at Armory One.)

Yes, pretty much.

In fact, Jess Rabble was allowed to cover the Gundams only because he’s regarded as Junius 7 Treaty Supervisor member from Junk Guild. So, Leon should also be considered the same Supervisor but from other group. Oh, and even though Jess is allowed to take pictures of the Gundams, he isn’t allowed to take pictures of the hangar and all the mass-produced MSs in Armory One.

Originally Posted by monster

Secondly, shouldn't the Impulse be front and center in the display? Why was its data not included?

True. Impulse is the front and center in the Gundams’ performance display. Yet, somehow Leon didn’t get its data. And don’t forget that the performance display is all organized by Durandal, including all the journalists he invited. So, you can either blame Leon's incompetence or Durandal's meddling.

Originally Posted by monster

I've seen the N Dagger N, but I don't recall this particular story. Is it from Destiny Astray or some of the latter Astrays?

It's from Destiny Astray.

[monster]

Originally Posted by cyberdemon

I always viewed the Impluse as Durandal's trump card against Kira. It's a machine whose survivability is perfectly suited for dealing with Kira's fighting style. So he didn't release the data on it to make sure it wouldn't become part of his planned Gundam jacking. Of all the Gundams, he needed the Impulse the most in his plans until Kira was taken care of. That's why as soon as the Freedom was taken down, he was all ready to give Shinn a new machine. It had outlived it's purpose and he could release the more powerful Gundams in his possession without worrying that Kira would tear them apart since they aren't as flexible as the Impulse in dealing with missing limbs.

Impulse was the mobile suit that really showed ZAFT's achievement out of all the new Gundams. Under normal circumstances, it should've been the one people paid attention to.

Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor

Oh, and even though Jess is allowed to take pictures of the Gundams, he isn’t allowed to take pictures of the hangar and all the mass-produced MSs in Armory One.

That's strange. You'd think the mass-produced mobile suits would've been less of a secret.

It's from Destiny Astray.

Then I guess I'll just have to read it again ... one of these days. Thanks.

[Obelisk ze Tormentor]

Originally Posted by monster

That's strange. You'd think the mass-produced mobile suits would've been less of a secret.

In the manga, they consider those hangar and MSs in Armory One as a strict military installation, hence the photography restriction. Only the Gundams are permitted for a coverage (for the distinguished journalists only).

[monster]

Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor

In the manga, they consider those hangar and MSs in Armory One as a strict military installation, hence the photography restriction. Only the Gundams are permitted for a coverage (for the distinguished journalists only).

Sure, having restricted areas where these so-called distinguished journalists cannot enter is understandable. But if ZAFT is letting them cover the Gundams, I doubt a photograph or two of mass-produced mobile suits and the more general area of Armory One would hurt. In fact, it would only help ZAFT show off their might.

And I'm not saying they should purposely take the mobile suits out from some hangar for the journalists. Just have the journalists take pictures of whatever mobile suits are out in the open while they're there.

I would think that taking pictures of the surroundings of where the main presentation is being held would be standard procedure for journalists. It helps describe the context of the situation.

Anyway, that's just my thought on this.

[Rising Dragon]

Originally Posted by monster

Sure, having restricted areas where these so-called distinguished journalists cannot enter is understandable. But if ZAFT is letting them cover the Gundams, I doubt a photograph or two of mass-produced mobile suits and the more general area of Armory One would hurt. In fact, it would only help ZAFT show off their might.

Probably, but what the military says, goes. Even a single snapshot of something they say you can't take a picture of can get all your camera supplies confiscated. And the cameraman potentially detained.

[S.Freedom]

But why?

From a military perspective, the gundams are the equal to what the first atomic bomb was at the end of WWII. Why would they make such a big deal of showing off they're fancy schmancy new nukes while they hide the latest version of the P-51 Mustang? I mean the US sure as heck wouldn't want the first nukes falling into the hands of Japan or Germany. If given the choice they'd rather have the new mustang stolen then the first nukes. It doesn't make sense the way they did it unless they wanted the three gundams to be stolen. Or at the very least for an attempt to steal them made.

I mean it's one thing to have a photo op for the new gundams after they've been commishioned and such. At that point they have pilots and are secured aboard the Minerva. But having the photo op before just increases the likelihood of what happened happening.

[Rising Dragon]

Probably because they are first and foremost military armor units, and not weapons of mass destruction like nuclear missiles, G.E.N.E.S.I.S., and Requiem. We do have military vehicle exhibitions in real life; this is no different.

[S.Freedom]

I was going for scale honestly....

I suppose a better analogy would be to compare the gundams to the stealth bomber/fighter during the cold war. The US didn't really show them off until the cold war was essentially over.