Anime Saimoe Tournament 2013 (Japan)

[Subayai]

Originally Posted by Coldlight

You do have a point about them being able to fabricate results without the ideal scenario of releasing all relevant information. But why would the new ruling detract from "what little transparency" the tournament had? At worst, shouldn't the new ruling still keep us in the dark about exactly which votes were thrown out - which I believe is the same as before, not worse?

The new ruling (until yesterday) only kept us in the dark about which votes were thrown out when the multivotes did not change the winners. Now, with the modification, it keeps us in the dark for all matches. That's why I say there is less transparency.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Subayai

The new ruling (until yesterday) only kept us in the dark about which votes were thrown out when the multivotes did not change the winners. Now, with the modification, it keeps us in the dark for all matches. That's why I say there is less transparency.

It's more important to know the numerical impact of the rule change on all matches than it is to know which specific codes are being thrown out.

So one part of the rule change involves slightly less transparency, and the other part of the rule change involves much greater transparency. The net effect is more transparency, imo.

[Subayai]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

I'm completely with Coldlight here. How does revealing more create less transparency?

Sorry, Subayai, but your argument here doesn't even make sense.

By knowing pre and post-purge results, we can see the impact of the rule change. That's more transparent, and it's good to see.

And to be fair, let's consider the possibility that there really has been a fair bit of cheating in this tournament. If so, doesn't it make sense for the J-SaiMoe admins to want to withhold information that could empower the cheaters to cheat more effectively? If you're a cheater and you know that one of your codes was one of the ones thrown out, then you're going to try to get more different codes.

I'm certainly not entirely happy with how this situation has been handled, but I can imagine this being a hard and tough call for the admins.




I disagree. Again, it shows us the exact impact of the rule change.

They announce the post-purge results (that's good) but at the same time they decide to never reveal which votes are counted (that's bad). In terms of transparency of the vote counting procedure, the bad rule is far more significant than the good one.

Revealing the post-purge results has little meaning if they also make a rule that allows them to completely make up those results.

Let me ask you a question: How do you know today Sayaka had really 280 votes and not 210 or 150? The answer is: you don't. This result comes from out of nowhere. Is it really good to have a result that could be completely false?

Before the new rules, you or me or anybody could check if the admins had counted the votes properly. Now we can not. That's less transparency.

[spirits having flown]

Woohoo! Sayaka wins her 2nd Group finals. It'll be very exciting to see her once again in the Finals Round of this year's Saimoe...

Now to unleash...

Spoiler for Ultimate Sayaka!!!:

Along with Mami and Kyouko, Sayaka now has 2 Prelims wins and 2 Group Block wins...

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Subayai

They announce the post-purge results (that's good) but at the same time they decide to never reveal which votes are counted (that's bad). In terms of transparency of the vote counting procedure, the bad rule is far more significant than the good one.

Revealing the post-purge results has little meaning if they also make a rule that allows them to completely make up those results.

Let me ask you a question: How do you know today Sayaka had really 280 votes and not 210 or 150? The answer is: you don't.

I'm pretty sure she had more than 150 based purely on her performance in earlier matches...

Besides, if you're going to be this cynical, then how do you know that any released codes were codes actually used for votes? They could just release a bunch of phony codes that they came up with themselves.

Look, no matter how transparent a voting-based competition is, you still have to have at least some trust in the vote counters. This applies to actual real-world political elections to determine who's going to be leading the free world, let alone some moe competition done mostly just for fun.


Before the latest rule change, it could be rigged. After the latest rule change, it could still be rigged. So that hasn't change at all. So it's no worse now than it was before.

What has changed is at least now we're getting to see the numerical impact of the rule change. And that's a good thing.

So on the whole, I think it's more transparent now.

[npal]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

I'm pretty sure she had more than 150 based purely on her performance in earlier matches...

Besides, if you're going to be this cynical, then how do you know that any released codes were codes actually used for votes? They could just release a bunch of phony codes that they came up with themselves.

Look, no matter how transparent a voting-based competition is, you still have to have at least some trust in the vote counters. This applies to actual real-world political elections to determine who's going to be leading the free world, let alone some moe competition done mostly just for fun.


Before the latest rule change, it could be rigged. After the latest rule change, it could still be rigged. So that hasn't change at all. So it's no worse now than it was before.

What has changed is at least now we're getting to see the numerical impact of the rule change. And that's a good thing.

So on the whole, I think it's more transparent now.

He probably means that, before the rule, it could be rigged by outside factors, as usual with fake votes. With the rule, the admins themselves can rig it to death, if they don't like the results for whatever reason, as there's now no information regarding which votes are getting invalidated.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by npal

He probably means that, before the rule, it could be rigged by outside factors, as usual with fake votes. With the rule, the admins themselves can rig it to death, if they don't like the results for whatever reason, as there's now no information regarding which votes are getting invalidated.

The admins could have rigged it before. They could have rigged it with their own fake votes.

Guys, if you want to get really cynical, there's no end to how far the rabbit hole goes down.

At some point, you either trust the vote counters or you don't.

People lost trust not because of the rule change, per se. Some people lost trust because of the rule change's impact. In other words, the impact of certain characters vote support falling off a cliff. If Nodoka, Toki, and a few other girls never saw half or so of their support totally evaporate into thin air, nobody would have cared much about the rule change.

So that's what is most important, imo. Counted vote totals both pre and post-purge.

[npal]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

The admins could have rigged it before. They could have rigged it with their own fake votes.

Guys, if you want to get really cynical, there's no end to how far the rabbit hole goes down.

At some point, you either trust the vote counters or you don't.

People lost trust not because of the rule change, per se. Some people lost trust because of the rule change's impact. In other words, the impact of certain characters vote support falling off a cliff. If Nodoka, Toki, and a few other girls never saw half or so of their support totally evaporate into thin air, nobody would have cared much about the rule change.

So that's what is most important, imo. Counted vote totals both pre and post-purge.

Wasn't the pre/post-purge counts given in previous years, too, anyway? I remember reading counts here all the time (by the hour sometimes :P), then the final official count without the fakes, plus some chart. Or were those unofficial counts?

If you ask me, the moment they started mass banning IPs for no reason and creating retarded rules each year about who is allowed to vote starting some years ago was the moment I lost faith to whoever's organizing the tournament. What I'm seeing now is just the icing on the cake.

[iamadooddood]

My obligatory grats to Watashi and Sayaka for winning their blocks. But especially Sayaka.

Originally Posted by BloodyKitty

I'll PM you

Thanks.

I'll tell you if it works in my next post here.

Originally Posted by Aya Reiko

I'm in the camp that does not believe they're rigging the thing as the only group that seems to be adversely affected are the Saki girls. It's much more believable that an individual or individuals were multi-voting them rather than the admins rigging things, especially with them being more transparent it.

That said, some of this conversation is starting to tread into Kinny Riddle territory...

Err... Chuu2 got adversely affected too? I've been pointing this out for the last few pages...

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Big congrats to Sayaka! And congrats to Watashi as well.

I'm very pleased to see both move on to the Final 16 without needing repechage.

And now it's time for the obligatory longer-haired Sayaka pick to maintain iamdooddood's support.

Spoiler for "Is this hair long enough, iamdooddood-sama?" - Sayaka:

Neat.

Adult Sayaka? :3

Originally Posted by spirits having flown

Woohoo! Sayaka wins her 2nd Group finals. It'll be very exciting to see her once again in the Finals Round of this year's Saimoe...

Now to unleash...

Spoiler for Ultimate Sayaka!!!:

She somehow looks like she's regressed in age here. O_o

Originally Posted by Triple_R

The admins could have rigged it before. They could have rigged it with their own fake votes.

Guys, if you want to get really cynical, there's no end to how far the rabbit hole goes down.

At some point, you either trust the vote counters or you don't.

People lost trust not because of the rule change, per se. Some people lost trust because of the rule change's impact. In other words, the impact of certain characters vote support falling off a cliff. If Nodoka, Toki, and a few other girls never saw half or so of their support totally evaporate into thin air, nobody would have cared much about the rule change.

So that's what is most important, imo. Counted vote totals both pre and post-purge.

We would have, if not for some of the more ridiculous decisions the admins have made alongside the suspicious rule schtick.

And mind that Saki wasn't the only faction affected. This fact worries the other factions too: what if their faction is next?

[Subayai]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Look, no matter how transparent a voting-based competition is, you still have to have at least some trust in the vote counters. This applies to actual real-world political elections to determine who's going to be leading the free world, let alone some moe competition done mostly just for fun.


Before the latest rule change, it could be rigged. After the latest rule change, it could still be rigged. So that hasn't change at all. So it's no worse now than it was before.

What has changed is at least now we're getting to see the numerical impact of the rule change. And that's a good thing.

So on the whole, I think it's more transparent now.

I don't know if you are familiar with how the votes used to be counted and how they are counted now but, the difference really is huge. This is not about being cynical, not having the counted codes/votes is actually very important. Maybe not for the fans who just come to check on the results, but for the inner workings of the tournament it has a big effect.

I understand "transparency" in this context as "having ways to check on the ones in charge". Not having the counted codes/votes means there are no ways to check on the admins, so the tournament has lost some transparency. I agree with you that having the post-purge results is a good thing but without the corresponding codes, this is just a number. In other words, having the post-purge results and the corresponding codes would bring more transparency. Having one without the other, it does not.
(Let me be clear: having the post-purge results alone is still better than nothing but it just does not bring more transparency as defined above.)

Of course the tournament could also be rigged before the rule change (just like any election), but now it is much much easier for them to do it. Before, we had to put some trust in the admins. Now we have to trust them completely. There is a difference between some trust and complete trust.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Besides, if you're going to be this cynical, then how do you know that any released codes were codes actually used for votes? They could just release a bunch of phony codes that they came up with themselves.

No, they could not. Every released code is matched with a vote (every vote needs a valid code to be counted). If the admins released a bunch of phony codes, they could not match them with any votes. If they counted them anyway, this could easily be seen and contested by anyone. Actually, this is a good example of how there used to be means to check if the admins did anything suspicious. Now we don't have the post-purge codes, so now they could do something like this if they wanted to.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Subayai

I don't know if you are familiar with how the votes used to be counted and how they are counted now but, the difference really is huge. This is not about being cynical, not having the counted codes/votes is actually very important. Maybe not for the fans who just come to check on the results, but for the inner workings of the tournament it has a big effect.

I understand "transparency" in this context as "having ways to check on the ones in charge".

That's not what transparency means. Transparency means being transparent about what you're doing, and how you're doing it. Releasing pre and post-purge vote totals adds to the transparency of the tournament when it comes to the "what you're doing" side of things.

No, they could not. Every released code is matched with a vote (every vote needs a valid code to be counted). If the admins released a bunch of phony codes, they could not match them with any votes.

I think you might be underestimating what computer hacking makes possible.

But in any event... Are you actually saying that every code for every vote in every match was made available during the voting to the general public?

If so, then that's even beyond what ISML shows for its votes. Why should J-SaiMoe be held to even higher standards than ISML?

[Subayai]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

That's not what transparency means. Transparency means being transparent about what you're doing, and how you're doing it. Releasing pre and post-purge vote totals adds to the transparency of the tournament when it comes to the "what you're doing" side of things.

I think we both have a similar meaning in mind but we used different wording. Anyway, you still need to know "how you're doing" to be transparent. That is, how do you go from the pre- to the post-purge results. And we don't know that. This is kinda my point actually.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

I think you might be underestimating what computer hacking makes possible.

But in any event... Are you actually saying that every code for every vote in every match was made available during the voting to the general public?

If so, then that's even beyond what ISML shows for its votes. Why should J-SaiMoe be held to even higher standards than ISML?

Every code for every vote in every match was made available after the voting to the general public. Not during, but after. It still is, for the pre-purge results only.
I don't know much about ISML but it's just a list of codes. I don't see why is that impressive but oh well.

[Team Rocket Elite]

The expected winners won. I guess I really was just underestimating Sawa. Watashi looks fine against Maho. Sayaka easily dominates Eru. It really doesn't look like the Puella Magi can lose at this point.

[Shinhwa]

Whatever the case, I am just going to guess the Puella Magi girls will win this entire thing. No need to see it further. Seems like the obvious outcome if you ask me.

[Hachiko]

Originally Posted by Team Rocket Elite

The expected winners won. I guess I really was just underestimating Sawa. Watashi looks fine against Maho. Sayaka easily dominates Eru. It really doesn't look like the Puella Magi can lose at this point.

Until they face each other.

[Ichuki]

Originally Posted by Shinhwa

Whatever the case, I am just going to guess the Puella Magi girls will win this entire thing. No need to see it further. Seems like the obvious outcome if you ask me.

Given the new rules that the admins implemented puts us in the dark still, there is a chance the admins might rig the Puella Magi's votes because they became too threatening.

Originally Posted by iamadooddood

Oh goody.

I foresee MadoMagi's girls getting knocked out in the round of 16...

I agree with you on that after seeing that rule's details.

[anisu]

Regarding the possibility of rigging hurting Madoka, keep in mind that having the Madoka fans campaign aggressively is probably the best way of getting new fans into the tournament now. Madoka is a huge phenomenon in the anime world which appeals to casuals, unlike Saki, which has a small circle of hardcore fans.

If so, then that's even beyond what ISML shows for its votes. Why should J-SaiMoe be held to even higher standards than ISML?

J-Saimoe's past standards were one of the reasons it was taken more seriously than ISML. Ideally ISML would've improved, but instead J-Saimoe got worse. Would you be fine with it if tournament results were entirely made up and voting didn't matter? We're a couple steps closer to that today than we were in previous years.

[Archaeon]

The fact that the organizer change the rule in the middle of the tournament make it even more suspicious. NBA change rule when season end, not in the middle of tournament. If the organizers are in fact sincere,they would have change the rule a few months,weeks before the tournament begin.

It's like at first, they don't care but when they realize their favorite characters are threaten by other factions as the tournament progress,they decided to change rule to find excuse to ban voters who will vote against the characters they support while at the same time,allowed the admin inflate their favorite characters votes and decrease the votes of the characters they feel are threat.

Did Chuunibyou really lost? Did Mami really beat Toki?

Only God and Saimoe organizer knows if those characters who won their respective matches ever since the new rule apply really win their match fair and square. I really question the credibility of Saimoe organizer. At this point,Saimoe is really become like wrestling where everything is scripted.

Originally Posted by anisu

Regarding the possibility of rigging hurting Madoka, keep in mind that having the Madoka fans campaign aggressively is probably the best way of getting new fans into the tournament now. Madoka is a huge phenomenon in the anime world which appeals to casuals, unlike Saki, which has a small circle of hardcore fans.


J-Saimoe's past standards were one of the reasons it was taken more seriously than ISML. Ideally ISML would've improved, but instead J-Saimoe got worse. Would you be fine with it if tournament results were entirely made up and voting didn't matter? We're a couple steps closer to that today than we were in previous years.

But the question here is how many of those casuals really care internet tournament like Saimoe? Mostly,it's the hardcore fans who went to internet to discuss about anime and they are the one who are into this kind of tournament.

[Wanderer]

Originally Posted by Archaeon

The fact that the organizer change the rule in the middle of the tournament make it even more suspicious. NBA change rule when season end, not in the middle of tournament. If the organizers are in fact sincere,they would have change the rule a few months,weeks before the tournament begin.

They have to keep up with ever-developing cheating techniques.

It's more like banning certain NBA players from the league for being suspected of doping, and adding new testing regulations for a hitherto unknown form of steroids.

Not saying that they've ran the tournament well, but I think it's hasty to start accusing them of rigging things.

Originally Posted by Archaeon

Did Chuunibyou really lost? Did Mami really beat Toki?

And what if the admins are cracking down on real cheating? Did Biribiri really lose to Nodoka? Did IkaMusume really lose to Shinka?

[Archaeon]

Originally Posted by Wanderer

They have to keep up with ever-developing cheating techniques.

It's more like banning certain NBA players from the league for being suspected of doping, and adding new testing regulations for a hitherto unknown form of steroids.

Not saying that they've ran the tournament well, but I think it's hasty to start accusing them of rigging things.

It's not the same.

Applying new general rule is a whole different story. New rule need to be applied at the start of the tournament to make sure ALL other matches right from the very beginning goes under the same rule. Rule must be consistent through out the entire tournament. NBA are consistent in their rule to make sure all matches in that particular season are played under the same rule but,this is not the case with Saimoe who changes the rule in the middle of the tournament.

That is why I said if the admin really sincere,he would have done that from the very beginning to make sure all matches play under the same rule.

And what if the admins are cracking down on real cheating? Did Biribiri really lose to Nodoka? Did IkaMusume really lose to Shinka?

Unfortunately,we never know but the thing is,they should have give reason and basis on why they think this particular vote is cheat. Please correct me if I'm wrong,did the admin said how they know which vote is suspicious? How do they DEFINE this 'suspicious votes' if I may ask. The organizer just simply remove those votes.

As someone already said,everything is less transparent making thing suspicious. It's like in election where scrutineers are not allowed to see the ballot count. We need to know 'how you are doing'. Criteria for elimination remain unclear. Quoted from Ani-List, 'The admins are subjectively swinging matches in a totally non-transparent way, creating the possibility for outright rigging.' That's the whole point.