Gundam Seed/Seed Destiny General Discussion Thread

[Sir Dearka]

Originally Posted by winter45

ROFL!!!! Eidolon Sniper nice compairings I never though about it in this detail

Thx for the read

You consider it an accurate compairing? I'm just curious

[winter45]

Originally Posted by Sir Dearka

You consider it an accurate compairing? I'm just curious

Accurate im not sure, but there are some similarity of his/her pairings. In gundum-verse i can see how Sniper concluded these pairings, and ive tried some brain storming to contradict some, but i couldnt think of anything that would stand out better.

Your always going to get someone trying to find character relation from previous series, this has been happening since i was an early teenager. (aprox 11-12 years ago) An good example is setsuna from Gundum00.. already people have compared him to Hero the main character of Gundum wing.

But like anything else not everyone would agree with someone elses pairing..

[Sir Dearka]

Originally Posted by winter45

Accurate im not sure, but there are some similarity of his/her pairings. In gundum-verse i can see how Sniper concluded these pairings, and ive tried some brain storming to contradict some, but i couldnt think of anything that would stand out better.

Your always going to get someone trying to find character relation from previous series, this has been happening since i was an early teenager. (aprox 11-12 years ago) An good example is setsuna from Gundum00.. already people have compared him to Hero the main character of Gundum wing.

But still, in this case I am amazed that you might perceive as accurate the comparisons that use a lot of such phrases as "x but not x-ish enough", "x has some parts of y and z" or compare major characters to "random x bigwigs" (just beacause what... they are officers in charge of the e-byll ship/group.organization etc? What about personality, looks and motives and personal experiences?)

[winter45]

Originally Posted by Sir Dearka

But still, in this case I am amazed that you might perceive as accurate the comparisons that use a lot of such phrases as "x but not x-ish enough", "x has some parts of y and z" or compare major characters to "random x bigwigs" (just beacause what... they are officers in charge of the e-byll ship/group.organization etc? What about personality, looks and motives and personal experiences?)

This is becoming off topic...

Its hard to say.. Cliche characters have already been done and used and killed to death. Some style of characters emos,angst have been ovely used in the past decade. Sure it doesnt help that Gundam specificly UC have been around in the early days of anime that one could easily say that x show copied y show and mixed in z characters to make a xyz result.

Unfortunatly especially for older generation of viewers thay may see a resemblence of old cast molded into new cast mixed with some extra flavour to not make an identicle clone.

In this case seed fans who have not seen UC shows are blessed in the sense that they have no idea or little understanding what the big fuss is all about. Until they caught up in the big debate UC vs CE arguments.

But to answer your question again, no im not sure on accuracy, but sure there are resemblence in Eidolon Sniper pairings but it doesnt make them absolute accurate.

[Eidolon Sniper]

Originally Posted by Sir Dearka

But still, in this case I am amazed that you might perceive as accurate the comparisons that use a lot of such phrases as "x but not x-ish enough", "x has some parts of y and z" or compare major characters to "random x bigwigs" (just beacause what... they are officers in charge of the e-byll ship/group.organization etc? What about personality, looks and motives and personal experiences?)

I was actually comparing the SEED/Destiny characters to aspects of the Zeta characters to some respect, and not all really fit the "Kira Yamato = CE Amuro Rei" specific kind of comparison, because they do sport some variety to how they act with relation to other Zeta characters. Also, because Zeta was older than SEED/Destiny, they had their own personalities, but probably they also had some shades of being like MSG characters they came after, so... these are also just approximations, not the exact, literal truth; other UC fans might give some of their analogies or how they interpret the said CE characters, and this is just how I see them. I've went all the way beyond aesthetic comparison because of course you also know that wouldn't just work out at all; UC characters do not look like CE characters at all. I just based them on approximations of their personalities and their roles in the Zeta-CEverse.

Spoiler:

Also, what happened in Zeta was Destiny enough. Haman's 3rd faction won that war (and since we could approximate Lacus as the "just wasn't Haman enough category"), then the entire thing fits.

[4Tran]

Originally Posted by Eidolon Sniper

You just said it yourself that SEED was a parallel of MSG.

Yes it is. However, it's a parallel in terms of structure, setting and basic premise; not in terms of character or plot (beyond the first coul). All you're doing is drawing a bunch of analogues between the shows. Going through your list, there aren't many similarities at all. If I were to use your criteria, I could just as easily show that the Mobile Suit Gundam characters are just copies of characters from Space Battleship Yamato or Star Wars or Star Trek.

Originally Posted by Eidolon Sniper

Well, since Gundam stories are always to some effect a war story, it will always be like that. What would be the point of tryin g to fit in an 18 meter tall robot in a story with no war, and to sell all its models?

And does every single possible war story have to be about some sort of world-encompassing conflict and be about someone "attempting to do some war on humanity again"? Are you so utterly incapable of conceiving any other kind of story to tell?

[Sir Dearka]

4Tran pretty much said everything I would on the topic.

As for the rest, I think we kinda exhausted the topic. I know what you meant. You know what I meant. And we both seem to just stick to our initial opinions

Cheers

[Eidolon Sniper]

@ 4Tran

Yes it is. However, it's a parallel in terms of structure, setting and basic premise; not in terms of character or plot (beyond the first coul). All you're doing is drawing a bunch of analogues between the shows. Going through your list, there aren't many similarities at all. If I were to use your criteria, I could just as easily show that the Mobile Suit Gundam characters are just copies of characters from Space Battleship Yamato or Star Wars or Star Trek.

The point here is sticking to the MSG/Zeta analogy. You do not seem to fare or bode well with that. You could easily just do that with other kinds of analogy too, but the point here is saying when CE is just a parallel of the UCverse, and I think you haven't actually added much to your argument with what you seem to be saying as the yardstick that says CE =/= UC. There are a lot of comparisons that could be made about UC and CE, that is why there are those heated debates about it; if they weren't straight parallels to one another, there wouldn't be anything left said for the CEverse except that it was part of the Gundam franchise. Heck, even 00 has been getting its flames for being touted as Wing 2.0, and by the current episode, has taken the Tomino phase. It also has its UC moments (of course, later Gundam series will and always will be compared with the UC whether you like it or not), but I think 00 has gone on pretty well despite its faint similarities with Wing and UC. Or maybe not.

SEED and Destiny did quite well into bringing in a whole new generation of younger fans, but mostly, from what I know from other CE fans that I have encountered, they only care much for the "easy looking character designs", the "flashy mech designs", and the "ensuing love story of whether so and so will end up with so and so", bringing bad name to CE fans who are serious enough to look well beyond that. It brings understandable irritation from a fan who truly loved Gundam for all its other aspects, especially the love story part, in the essence that Fukuda created a "monster" - it has now become more of how will the old cast loves be dealt with by the upcoming supposed movie or 3rd series, and has also created for himself a quicksand trap for probably setting up the old cast members as virtually stereotyped and wouldn't need to be touched unless they would change for the better more (like concluding their love stories for instance with a marriage or something). Essentially the entire war on ideals premise was borrowed primarily from Wing, with some hints of UC and other AU (if there is any) here and there. They also had their own love stories as well, but it didn't actually derail the entire story to just have fans pining for more so and so screentime of couple A and B together. >.>;;

And does every single possible war story have to be about some sort of world-encompassing conflict and be about someone "attempting to do some war on humanity again"? Are you so utterly incapable of conceiving any other kind of story to tell?

Um 4Tran, in case you have forgotten...THIS IS GUNDAM. >.>;; It's not that I am "incapable" of actually having to see any more of the story than the stereotypical "evil alien/colony overlord or Earthian overlord who always manage to have his battle finale in outer space", but traditionally it always has been. The novels offer some facts about other characters that lived on the sidelines of the stories they were primarily connected with, and it's always somewhat connected to the war at some point, maybe it was the prelude to the war, why it affected some scenes in the series (especially "LOL Lowe Guele makes a spectacular Kira Yamato save" in the CE; there could be others from UC I don't know for my limited exposure to it except for the first 2 series), or was the aftermath of the war that has just come and gone. I have no problems actually trying to tell it from another point of view, but a Gundam always has its place in the classic story of a war with its effects on civilians and military alike, and that is the point of selling a Gundam model as well.

[4Tran]

Originally Posted by Eidolon Sniper

The point here is sticking to the MSG/Zeta analogy.

Why? Character wise and plot wise, if Destiny is no more similar to Zeta than Mobile Suit Gundam is to Yamato, then what's the point in making the comparison?

Originally Posted by Eidolon Sniper

Um 4Tran, in case you have forgotten...THIS IS GUNDAM. >.>;; It's not that I am "incapable" of actually having to see any more of the story than the stereotypical "evil alien/colony overlord or Earthian overlord who always manage to have his battle finale in outer space", but traditionally it always has been.

Of course, you're right. That's probably why smaller conflicts like in Turn A or Gundam X or even Zeta or ZZ never happened. And of course, smaller segments of larger conflicts like 0080 and 08th MS Team are likewise just figments of our imagination.

[Eidolon Sniper]

@ 4Tran

I think you're still not answering the question or adding on to your argument, 4Tran. Also, while we LOL at the "seeming ridiculousness" of Gundam's take on wars, some premise of it is actually taking place right now if it comes to that. Earth VS colonies = sound like racism, do they not? Terrorism, blind belief in one's leader, the slow but steady spiral into another world war (the arms race), ideologies...the list goes on and on. It was just "fictionalized" in order for younger fans to understand what the heck is going on in today's world. SEED/Destiny is one such example.

[4Tran]

Originally Posted by Eidolon Sniper

I think you're still not answering the question or adding on to your argument, 4Tran.

What are you having trouble grasping? I'll try to clarify any points you don't understand.

Originally Posted by Eidolon Sniper

Also, while we LOL at the "seeming ridiculousness" of Gundam's take on wars, some premise of it is actually taking place right now if it comes to that. Earth VS colonies = sound like racism, do they not?

No, it doesn't. Earth vs. colonies is exactly the same as home country vs. colonies.

Originally Posted by Eidolon Sniper

Terrorism, blind belief in one's leader, the slow but steady spiral into another world war (the arms race), ideologies...the list goes on and on. It was just "fictionalized" in order for younger fans to understand what the heck is going on in today's world. SEED/Destiny is one such example.

No, not really. Gundam shows do not have a primary purpose of educating children. That's one of the reasons why they're not particularly realistic.

[Eidolon Sniper]

Well, you only seem to just go around the question - whether or not SEED/Destiny is a parallel of MSG/ Zeta. Sometimes you even contradict yourself. >.>;; I actually have no idea what you're trying to say anymore.

Earth and the colonies....come on, one of the major reasons that is why there have been wars in Gundam shows is because of this very same difference - those people born in earth and those people born in the colonies. It has always come to a point that says that "we must wage war on the colonies/earth for they are different and have done evil things to us in the past because of this said difference" to some point or another. Acts like being evil to another person just because he or she is different - either race, gender, or skin color - happens in the real world nowadays. While fans tend to watch Gundams because of their popularity, or cult following or whatever, they are at the same time getting educated not knowing that they are getting educated. I for one, have had no idea what pacifism was until Relena introduced me to it. >.>;; and yes, I was young and was just trying to expand my a anime knowledge beyond Sailormoon (and I learned about several Greek legends through Sailormoon as well :P ). They're rather stylized retellings of what happens in the world today, so they are not literally by the book literal kind of explanation or situation. Trying to explain pacifism to a teenager would not make sense if he just had a book to read upon it, right? People learn and understand and take note and retain knowledge much better if they see, hear, experience things that they do not especially comprehend - that is why there are bedtime fairy tale stories, etc. While not necessarily saying outright that they are preaching something, the said preaching is woven into how the story is presented - through characters and situations that a child could identify with, and could easily learn from. It's the same with anime nowadays, or most of it anyway.

Anyway, this is really getting off topic, which comes to the initial question of this entire thread, the possibility of a 3rd GS series or a movie in the works. I think I have explained myself as to why I think it may not be feasible, after what had happened in SE IV. The only possible "redemption" the CE would have would most likely to retcon the entire story from the beginning, in order to iron out all plotholes. What do you think?

[Sir Dearka]

I don't think so. I can imagine some small rebellion with a very powerful mecha, though. And I can imagine a "kill'em all" spree of Fukuda, if he has courage enough to carry it out nicely and dramatically. The way he never did in Destiny. In this case, I'm taliing about the movie.

If we're talking about yet another entire 50-episode series, then I think we should just jump forward a decade or so. I've mentioned once my imaginary story about the new group of Celestial Being-like terrorists that roam the divided lands of Earth Federation, spreading fear with its Mobile Suits, including a new Gundam. The new anti-terrorist team is formed in Orb to help out fixing the chaos. With only one Gundam at the lead to face the powerful mecha of the enemy. Kagalli would probably be the main recurring old character, with the rest having their cameos. Maybe the conflict would later spread to space and lead to the assasination of Lacus. Kira could end up pulling out "kamikaze move" and sacrificing himself to give the new main protagonist a chance to save the world (like destroying some barrier generator that supplies some deadly ultimate weapon or smth).

[Eidolon Sniper]

But the powerful mecha was also disregarded - Destroy Gundam - by the time it suddenly became a grunt suit to the likes of Shinn's Destiny and Rey's Legend (when if truth be told they were almost created at the same time...>.>;; ). "Rebellion" happened with the Zala fanatics who tried to colony drop the earth and were on a suicide mission - I think none of them survived, they would just rather get killed than be gotten by the enemies. DSSD? I haven't actually watched Stargazer, but the Stargazer Gundam has potential - or maybe not.

Spoiler:

Strike Noir was also cool, along with the variants of Buster and Duel (but we all know their pilots died - for the Buster and Duel variants that is. Selene and Sven are in a "coma" at the end).

If the rumors are true, Sunrise wouldn't let the husband and wife team handle the movie, not with their talent to create a monster too powerful to contain. It would be interesting if another director were to helm the movie and tries to make do with the bare material that could be left to develop - such as Talia's son - in order to create a movie based on that. I even loved the Astray shorts!

[Sir Dearka]

Originally Posted by Eidolon Sniper

But the powerful mecha was also disregarded - Destroy Gundam - by the time it suddenly became a grunt suit to the likes of Shinn's Destiny and Rey's Legend (when if truth be told they were almost created at the same time...>.>;; ). "Rebellion" happened with the Zala fanatics who tried to colony drop the earth and were on a suicide mission - I think none of them survived, they would just rather get killed than be gotten by the enemies. DSSD?

I really don't see the problem in imagining the scenario that deals yet with another terrorist group/rebellion/war. There's no Gundam without conflict. And most of the Destroys from the previous Dullindal war could be already entirely wiped out. So what should people do? Make new powerful mecha :lol:

New series, new models. Simple.

[4Tran]

Originally Posted by Eidolon Sniper

Well, you only seem to just go around the question - whether or not SEED/Destiny is a parallel of MSG/ Zeta. Sometimes you even contradict yourself. >.>;; I actually have no idea what you're trying to say anymore.

What's so hard to understand about "A is similar to B in some respects, but is different in others"? Let me know where you're confused, and I'll clarify those points.

Originally Posted by Eidolon Sniper

Earth and the colonies....come on, one of the major reasons that is why there have been wars in Gundam shows is because of this very same difference - those people born in earth and those people born in the colonies. It has always come to a point that says that "we must wage war on the colonies/earth for they are different and have done evil things to us in the past because of this said difference" to some point or another.

No it hasn't. And given the setup post-Destiny, the indications point towards a different set of problems.

Originally Posted by Eidolon Sniper

Anyway, this is really getting off topic, which comes to the initial question of this entire thread, the possibility of a 3rd GS series or a movie in the works. I think I have explained myself as to why I think it may not be feasible, after what had happened in SE IV. The only possible "redemption" the CE would have would most likely to retcon the entire story from the beginning, in order to iron out all plotholes. What do you think?

I don't think that this is true in the slightest. The Cosmic Era has the best setting of any of the Gundam shows, and post-Destiny, it poses the most potential for story ideas. The creators can either try to concentrate on the main cast again, or they can extrapolate to develop events that take place several decades in the future, when various crises start reaching critical point.

Only 2307 CE comes close in this regard, but the setting is overwhelmed by the directions the creators need the story to go in.

Originally Posted by Sir Dearka

I don't think so. I can imagine some small rebellion with a very powerful mecha, though. And I can imagine a "kill'em all" spree of Fukuda, if he has courage enough to carry it out nicely and dramatically. The way he never did in Destiny. In this case, I'm taliing about the movie.

To be honest, I've never been all that fond of "kill'em all" as a form of storytelling. While it can be an interesting development, it's no substitute for good writing.

Originally Posted by Sir Dearka

I really don't see the problem in imagining the scenario that deals yet with another terrorist group/rebellion/war. There's no Gundam without conflict. And most of the Destroys from the previous Dullindal war could be already entirely wiped out. So what should people do? Make new powerful mecha :lol:

New series, new models. Simple.

The new models bit is guaranteed. I'm not fond of the idea of terrorists having access to mobile suits, but there are tons of different ideas that can be developed.

[Sir Dearka]

Originally Posted by 4Tran

To be honest, I've never been all that fond of "kill'em all" as a form of storytelling. While it can be an interesting development, it's no substitute for good writing.

Well, sometimes good writing = moving plot = good excuse to finish off some characters with style. Like Nicol or Mwu (sic...) in SEED. That's basically how I see it and why I am fond of the series filled with dramatic deaths which have a huge emotional impact on the viewer and thus improve the plot by maintaining a proper degree of suspense.

Originally Posted by 4Tran

The new models bit is guaranteed. I'm not fond of the idea of terrorists having access to mobile suits, but there are tons of different ideas that can be developed.

Yup. My idea was just one of many which one could really develop from the current geopolitical situation in CE.

[finalnight]

Kinda off-topic, but I was rewatching stargazer's dvd extended edition and noticed this at the very end, any significance? Don't know japanese.

Spoiler for Pic:

[Ledgem]

I don't know all of the kanji and sort of rushed through it, but I'd sort of guess that it's more of a disclaimer (sort of like one of those "all of the characters and story in this movie are fiction. Any resemblance to people, living or dead, is purely coincidence" messages). I can do a full translation later I suppose...

[finalnight]

nah, just making sure it wasn't a "Upon being rescued, sven and selene spent the next 48 hours humping like rabbits"