Magical Girl Lyrical Nanoha The MOVIE 1st

[Keroko]

It's possible to have an AI and not be an Intelligent Device, the difference is that an Intelligent Device can upgrade itself based on the data it receives, and act with far more independence.

It's also why you don't see them a lot. Many mages are uncomfortable with a Device that has a will of it's own.

[Rising Dragon]

Yeah, I knew that from when I asked about the difference in the Q&A thread. I was just under the impression that those two Devices were of the Intelligent type.

Also wasn't it said that another reason they're not in favor is because Intelligent Devices can also take control if they think its necessary? Like how Mach Calibur did to save Subaru from Ginga.

[Demi.]

Originally Posted by Keroko

Again, it being a different kind of magic makes the comparison flawed.



Sound stages confirm it, I recall.

This is all movie discussion, I hope you understand. Not that I'm saying the series can't be brought up here, but this particular discussion was sparked by the Nanoha from the movie.

RH is a computer, Yuuno a human. The difference between studying with a computer, which can't really relate to human experiences and another human is rather large.

Again, movie discussion. And from what I can see, Yuuno does not train her in the movie.

And I'd say image training would be far more potent than having a teacher. Especially so if the device is capable of synching with it's user.

Ah, yeah, no. I made the mistake of thinking that as well, but she spend a lot of time with Yuuno thinking up and practicing Starlight Breaker. She didn't just pull it out of nowhere.

Read above -

I lost count of the amount of times Fate threw down Haken slashes, Defencers, Photon Lancers and so on without saying a word.

What? I don't see the relation. I mean, Fate learned these attacks before she was able to use them. Not that she needs an incantation for every attack.

Also, A's after cardridge upgrade. No shiny practice of the new spells there, yet Fate pulled out a couple of new ones 'from her heart' as soon as the second round with Signum started.

That's true, however it does contradict Fate's backstory. Everything she learned was with books, Linith, and trial and error. Perhaps the new and improved bardiche was capable of more than the original bardiche.

[Triple_R]

Something that I've been wondering about (and Demi's most recent post on this thread has brought this thought back to the surface for me):

Is this movie a retcon of sorts?

In other words, does this movie's continuity revise the continuity established with the original Nanoha anime?

Not that it necessarily matters a great deal based on some of what I've read on this thread, but I'm still curious to know.

[NorthernFallout]

It's been discussed and the consensus it's an AU, considering how much they've changed.

[Keroko]

Word of god has labeled it AU since the start

Originally Posted by Demi.

This is all movie discussion, I hope you understand. Not that I'm saying the series can't be brought up here, but this particular discussion was sparked by the Nanoha from the movie.

Don't bring up Fate material from the Sound Stages then, you've just voided half of your argument.

Originally Posted by Demi.

And I'd say image training would be far more potent than having a teacher. Especially so if the device is capable of synching with it's user.

A Device can't relate to you and share his or her own experiences, nor warn you of over stressing yourself and stop you from doing so. This is what led to Nanoha's accident.

Originally Posted by Demi.

What? I don't see the relation. I mean, Fate learned these attacks before she was able to use them. Not that she needs an incantation for every attack.

They're still auto attacks capable of being activated by Bardiche.

Originally Posted by Demi.

That's true, however it does contradict Fate's backstory. Everything she learned was with books, Linith, and trial and error. Perhaps the new and improved bardiche was capable of more than the original bardiche.

Don't see why it contradicts Bardiche and Fate being capable of doing so. It just shows she hadn't done so up till that point. And Bardiche was hardly improved in the areas you suggest, all that was added was the Cartridge system, and even that was done in a hurry (they didn't even have the time to properly reinforce the Devices to handle the stress, much less install other ellements). If Bardiche could do that in A's, then it could do that prior to A's as well.

[Demi.]

Originally Posted by Keroko

Word of god has labeled it AU since the start



Don't bring up Fate material from the Sound Stages then, you've just voided half of your argument.

Material from the sound stages are in the movie. And I know which parts, considering how much time I spent researching it.

A Device can't relate to you and share his or her own experiences, nor warn you of over stressing yourself and stop you from doing so. This is what led to Nanoha's accident.

That's all irrelevant. My point is, it's the quickest method to being taught high-level spells. Over-stressing yourself because of it is recoil, but it's not something she needed to worry about in the movie/first season.

They're still auto attacks capable of being activated by Bardiche.

Uh, yes, but she needed to know how to use them first. She didn't just "think" them up.

Don't see why it contradicts Bardiche and Fate being capable of doing so. It just shows she hadn't done so up till that point. And Bardiche was hardly improved in the areas you suggest, all that was added was the Cartridge system, and even that was done in a hurry (they didn't even have the time to properly reinforce the Devices to handle the stress, much less install other ellements). If Bardiche could do that in A's, then it could do that prior to A's as well.

Either way, it's not evident in the first season/movie, and that's the only timeline that matters, at the moment. The Nanoha series isn't exactly consistent, but then again, Fate reached Nanoha's level in strength during A's...So maybe she adapted to Nanoha's method of pulling moves off wish sheer force of will. <-- partially joking.

Remember, this was originally a discussion to why Nanoha appears so much more powerful than Fate in the movie. And interestingly enough, that gap in power receeded in A's. Though it seems to have come back for StrikerS...

[Keroko]

Originally Posted by Demi.

Material from the sound stages are in the movie. And I know which parts, considering how much time I spent researching it.

But only the Fate parts, no?

Originally Posted by Demi.

That's all irrelevant. My point is, it's the quickest method to being taught high-level spells. Over-stressing yourself because of it is recoil, but it's not something she needed to worry about in the movie/first season.

Hmm, last I checked mental training was only combat simulation. Training reflexes and quick thinking, not actual spells. Do you have a source on how the movie aproaches this?

Originally Posted by Demi.

Uh, yes, but she needed to know how to use them first. She didn't just "think" them up.

That was before she got Bardiche, no? Problem solved, she can do it as long as she has Bardiche.

[JINNSK]

Originally Posted by Demi.

Again, movie discussion. And from what I can see, Yuuno does not train her in the movie.

I don't know why you interpreted he didn't train Nanoha in the movie.But after Nanoha was defeated in the first battle with Fate,Yuuno lectured about how to use magic and linker core.

[Demi.]

Originally Posted by JINNSK

I don't know why you interpreted he didn't train Nanoha in the movie.But after Nanoha was defeated in the first battle with Fate,Yuuno lectured about how to use magic and linker core.

I havn't watched the movie myself, so I can't be 100% certain on everything. However, what reviewers have said is that after Nanoha is defeated, she rigorously does image training with RH while she's at home, and in class. I don't see Yuuno being brought up much as to the person who trained her. When you say lectures her on how to use magic, does he physically teach her something? Or does he merely explain the basis of what magic is, and how it's used?

Originally Posted by Keroko

But only the Fate parts, no?

Fate's backstory elements, which is what I thought you were referring to.

Hmm, last I checked mental training was only combat simulation. Training reflexes and quick thinking, not actual spells. Do you have a source on how the movie aproaches this/

Well, my reply to JINNSK pretty much answers the question. Will see how he replies, since it sounds like he watched the movie himself.

That was before she got Bardiche, no? Problem solved, she can do it as long as she has Bardiche.

If bardiche was the solution to all of Fate's magic potential, then why did she have to first train to learn the moves? Linith could have just jumped straight to the creation of bardiche, and she'd be a first class mage.

[Keroko]

Originally Posted by Demi.

I havn't watched the movie myself, so I can't be 100% certain on everything. However, what reviewers have said is that after Nanoha is defeated, she rigorously does image training with RH while she's at home, and in class. I don't see Yuuno being brought up much as to the person who trained her. When you say lectures her on how to use magic, does he physically teach her something? Or does he merely explain the basis of what magic is, and how it's used?

Considering the risk of so much as mentioning Yuuno, I'm not surprised he isn't mentioned. Doesn't mean he has no role though.

Originally Posted by Demi.

Fate's backstory elements, which is what I thought you were referring to.

Yes, but you're not familiar with how much of Nanoha's backstory is involved in the movie, right?

Originally Posted by Demi.

If bardiche was the solution to all of Fate's magic potential, then why did she have to first train to learn the moves? Linith could have just jumped straight to the creation of bardiche, and she'd be a first class mage.

Because creating a Device takes time? And Linith only had one year and seven months to both raise Fate, teach her magic (by her masters order) take care of said master and build a Device at the same time?

It's the perfect answer to the plothole. A's showed that Fate is very much capable of pulling the 'from the heart' thing (I prefer to think of them as spells programmed or created by the Device, but whatever works) and Bardiche is the answer as to why she didn't do so before.

[Demi.]

Originally Posted by Keroko

It's the perfect answer to the plothole. A's showed that Fate is very much capable of pulling the 'from the heart' thing (I prefer to think of them as spells programmed or created by the Device, but whatever works) and Bardiche is the answer as to why she didn't do so before.

Linith does say something along the lines of "Bardiche, my final task/objective. With you, Fate will be able to use all of the spells I taught to her."

A plot-hole it is, but I don't feel the first season/movie plot should be scrapped for the sake of the A's plot.

Yes, but you're not familiar with how much of Nanoha's backstory is involved in the movie, right?

By Nanoha's backstory, what do you mean by that exactly? I wasn't aware that there was any.

[Keroko]

Commonly new canon overrides old canon, and S1 was more magical girl based based than the following seasons. But if we can use Bardiche to fill up the plothole, why leave the hole?

Bardiche and Raising Heart are what allow Nanoha and Fate to pull spells out of nowhere. Problem solved.

Originally Posted by Demi.

By Nanoha's backstory, what do you mean by that exactly? I wasn't aware that there was any.

The whole Yuuno training thing and how it works in the movie. You've studied Fate and how her SS material works in the movie, but not Nanoha's.

[Demi.]

Originally Posted by Keroko

Commonly new canon overrides old canon, and S1 was more magical girl based based than the following seasons. But if we can use Bardiche to fill up the plothole, why leave the hole?

Bardiche and Raising Heart are what allow Nanoha and Fate to pull spells out of nowhere. Problem solved.

It makes Fate's year of rigorous training seem meeningless. I'm not going to accept it, lol. And if thats scrapped, it means Fate is only slightly more experienced than Nanoha. Because Fate only got bardiche a little while before the two first meet.

The whole Yuuno training thing and how it works in the movie. You've studied Fate and how her SS material works in the movie, but not Nanoha's.

Well I explained how it works from what I read. Unless a good portion of reviewers are leaving out important detail...

[Keroko]

Originally Posted by Demi.

It makes Fate's year of rigorous training seem meeningless. I'm not going to accept it, lol.

Combat experience and stamina -both physical and magical- are essential parts of training as well, so it's not 'meaningless.'

Originally Posted by Demi.

And if thats scrapped, it means Fate is only slightly more experienced than Nanoha. Because Fate only got bardiche a little while before the two first meet.

Well, that makes two problems solved. Go Bardiche.

Originally Posted by Demi.

Well I explained how it works from what I read. Unless a good portion of reviewers are leaving out important detail...

Apparently, since we only recently had a voice pointing out that this movie is more Nanoha centric than Fate centric.

[Demi.]

Originally Posted by Keroko

Combat experience and stamina -both physical and magical- are essential parts of training as well, so it's not 'meaningless.'



Well, that makes two problems solved. Go Bardiche.

If that's how it has to be.

Apparently, since we only recently had a voice pointing out that this movie is more Nanoha centric than Fate centric.

It's all open to interpretation. What makes something Nanoha centric, or Fate centric? I have a really hard time figuring out how Fate can get more screen time, and yet it turns Nanoha centric. From what I gather, Fate gets hurt a lot, she seems slightly weaker, and Nanoha FULL POWER DESTROY EVERYTHING.

I think the general idea the director had in mind, was to put the two on an even level for this movie, since he wanted to focus more on their "bonds" together.

Whether you prefer the sympathetic character, or the one that's virtually a flying tank of mass destruction, is going to determine who you think had the spotlight. Does Nanoha have all the glory in battle? Sure. But I thought she had all the glory in the first season, too...

[Arkeus]

You do remember that Nanoha *does* uses image training before A's too, right?

And that she still needed Yuuno for things other than tactics.

Whether you prefer the sympathetic character, or the one that's virtually a flying tank of mass destruction, is going to determine who you think had the spotlight. Does Nanoha have all the glory in battle? Sure. But I thought she had all the glory in the first season, too...

And if we prefer the sympathetic character that is Nanoha instead of bland and common fate?

oh, and by "Nanoha-centric", if it follows the movie manga even a bit (which i am not sure) it seems Nanoha does have more emotional investment shown in private (she still smiles in front of others).

[Demi.]

And if we prefer the sympathetic character that is Nanoha instead of bland and common fate?

oh, and by "Nanoha-centric", if it follows the movie manga even a bit (which i am not sure) it seems Nanoha does have more emotional investment shown in private (she still smiles in front of others).

Actually, I mean a character who invokes sympathy. Sympathetic was probably the wrong word.

Considering what Fate's been through, she's intended to be the one to the one to sympathize with, not Nanoha. Suppose you could find something to sympathize with Nanoha...Though she has a pretty cheerful life and enjoys playing with magic.

"Fate. Bland" *shrug* each to their own. She's definitely not common, in any case. Unless you want to stack up every character with a tragic past and assume they're all the same.

And no, the movie doesn't follow the manga. And you should be glad, (I know I am) because if they showed those scenes in the movie, she'd have a permanent label of Emoha stapled to her back.

[mokoufanatic]

but if you stack up every character that had a troubled past Fate would still be on the much more joyful end of the spectrum even though she shows little emotion in front of others but in front of Arf she smiles im sure she laughs but not on screen

[Nya~n]

and then there are those that come out all too joyful.

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