(L) Dragon Ball Super

[Hakai]

Spoiler for 116-117:

What annoys me is Goku running out of energy again after UI and then getting targeted by fodders. Feels like same shit all over again.

Inb4 Goku goes UI for the third time and still gets beaten by Jiren, who then goes back to meditating without eliminating Goku.. again -__-

Toei writers don't plan their shit properly *sigh*

EDIT: title for ep 119 has been revealed too. I added that in my previous post.

[Gan_HOPE326]

Originally Posted by Sixth

At this rate, UI will be another SSB.

Goku: I have mastered UI!
Next arc villain dodging all Goku's attacks and hit Goku at 100% hit rate.
UI Goku: WTF! Why can't I dodge his attacks

"Why don't you learn to DOOOOOOODGE!"

[Sixth]

Originally Posted by Gan_HOPE326

"Why don't you learn to DOOOOOOODGE!"

Goku: I did! Remember? ULTRA INSTICN-*get punched by the next arc villain*
Next Arc Villain: Sorry, you are way too open.
Beerus: Whis! Explain why is that villain can hit UI Goku
Whis: Hmm..The villain has mastered Omega Instinct
Beerus/Goku: WTF is Omega Instinct.

[Mad Pierrot]

Originally Posted by Hakaishin

Spoiler for 116-117:

What annoys me is Goku running out of energy again after UI and then getting targeted by fodders. Feels like same shit all over again.

Inb4 Goku goes UI for the third time and still gets beaten by Jiren, who then goes back to meditating without eliminating Goku.. again -__-

Toei writers don't plan their shit properly *sigh*

EDIT: title for ep 119 has been revealed too. I added that in my previous post.

Spoiler for spoiler:

So the episodes will keep focus on Goku for the eleventh time.
Just give more screentime for the others and make them do the glory. If not this is turning into GT

[Kanon]

Spoiler:

I'm glad they're going to address the fact other Universes will want to use their potaras after seeing Kefla.

[DragoMuseveni]

UI is a evolving form. It adapts on every opponent . But Goku uses it on a fusion team instead playin it cool and conserving his energy . Perhaps we will get a UI fight again with jiren but this time Goku will have more energy
Also the 118 episode title : Please let it be Ribrianne universe , PLEASE LET IT BE RIBRIANNE UNIVERSE . Not even universe 9 was so annoying .

[rpgman1]

I want Vegeta to have his glory, not being second fiddle as usual. Frieza gets some ringouts at least. UI seems to trigger whenever a really strong opponent occurs. Don't the androids have limitless energy anyway?

[SilverGlavenus]

Originally Posted by Tong

Good episode. It was mere speculation before, but now Vados has confirmed that the Potara fusion multiplies the sum of the fusees powerlevels, whereas Fusion dance is merely a sum.

Originally Posted by Archon_Wing

And of course, potara fusion is just incredibly powerful even if not both members are that strong. After all Vegeta in the Buu arc was much weaker than Goku yet Vegito was far and above Buu and if you go by Toei logic, messes with Buu without tranforming either. And Future Zamasu while being immortal wasn't that strong either compared to everyone else also caused a huge power gain.

Potara is way more powerful than the Fusion Dance. The dance requires both to have the nearly the same power levels, so if one is stronger than the other, he would have to lower down his power. The potara, on the other hand, skips all of that bullshit and goes straight into fusion. Not to mention the fatty and skinny form should the dance fail.

Originally Posted by Archon_Wing

In the end, comes just the overall plot point that U6's Saiyans are just superior in potential. They have evolved away their tales and U6 is a higher ranked universe too, so that's not surprising. From base form Cabba being able to challenge Vegeta, it's actually been pretty consistent that if the U6 saiyans learned to transform that they would easily outpace their u7 counterparts. And then keep in mind how weak U7 saiyans really are. I mean, Vegeta as a kid already was stronger than his entire race, Nappa was already considered cream of the crop, and Saiyans really couldn't accomplish anythings beyond the Oozaru hax. pound for pound it'd almost seem like Namekians are better warriors. And they're all outclassed by what some jackass piled together in his basement for about 20 years. That being said, it would seem they have really snipped back on Saiyans having great potential. If anything, Frieza's race would probably be that....

Not really, even if they do have greater potential, they still cannot close the gap between U7's saiyans and U6's saiyans with potential alone. Sure they do have better pace, but relying on that is the same as disregarding all of the training and hardships U7's saiyans went through to achieve power. You'll see my points more below. And besides, we only meet few members of the Saiyans race in both universes, so stating one race is superior to the other is not really valid. ToP gathers the strongest warriors, not the race itself so there's that.

Originally Posted by Fenrir_valindri

Vegito not being as strong was true at the time, but keep in mind everyone base levels have risen dramatically since the first arc of Super.

Cabba (who is weaker then Caulifla) was on par with base Vegeta in the U6 arc, which puts him above final form Frieza during return of F in his base form.

That logic alone makes Caulifla more powerful in base then almost anyone during Z with the possible exception of fused characters like Buuhan and Vegito.

Kale and Caulifla went all like "Holy shit ! What the fking fk was that ?? What amazing power!!!" When Goku transformed into SSJ3. Mystic Gohan was also stronger than SSJ3 Goku mind you.
That very same Frieza stomped Cabba in his base form In his golden form, well, rip Cabba.

Of course her power is dramatically higher when she enters SS/SS2. On top of that she is rapidly picking up her fighting skill/mastery of SS2 while fighting Goku. Last episode was basically her development speed vs Goku's recovery speed.

This isn't even taking Kale into account who was actually matching SSG to some degree.

The fight itself clearly demonstrated that Caulifla (SS2) can't keep up with SSG, but Kale (LSSJ) could.

It makes sense that their fusion would be solidly above SSG even in base, the earring fusion has always been really OP, just think of base Vegito vs Buuhan.

Going by this, Vegito should have obliterated Merged Zamasu, since Goku and Vegeta were already stronger individually than Zamasu and black Goku.

Again, this has to to with the discrepancies in power levels, not in the sense of concrete measurements, but in story consistency. Back at the start of Super, Beerus EFFORTLESSLY stomped SSJ3 Goku in just 2 hits. SSG was able to somewhat keep up with Beerus. Although Beerus didn't use full power, he clearly exerted more than he did against SSJ3, that alone is enough to show how much stronger SSG is compared to SSJ3. Seeing how Caulifla and Kale were in awe of SSJ3, I can't understand why they were able to keep up with SSG Goku.

Originally Posted by rpgman1

I want Vegeta to have his glory, not being second fiddle as usual. Frieza gets some ringouts at least. UI seems to trigger whenever a really strong opponent occurs. Don't the androids have limitless energy anyway?

Yeah, Gohan too, SSJ2 Gohan back in Cell Saga was the shit, he was so cool

[Fenrir_valindri]

Originally Posted by SilverGlavenus

Kale and Caulifla went all like "Holy shit ! What the fking fk was that ?? What amazing power!!!" When Goku transformed into SSJ3. Mystic Gohan was also stronger than SSJ3 Goku mind you.
That very same Frieza stomped Cabba in his base form In his golden form, well, rip Cabba.

Yes, because at the time Kale couldn't control her LSSJ form, and Caulifla is a transformation addict and wants to learn how to be SS3 herself.

Mystic Gohan was only stronger then SS3 Goku in Z, do you honestly want to claim that Mystic Gohan from Z is stronger then SS3 Goku in the current super arc?

Frieza has also gotten stronger since return of F, as his exchange with Goku before the tournament proved. He still went Golden to knock Cabba out as well.

People need to stop assuming a transformation has a stagnant power level, they are all multipliers of their base strength levels. Goku in any of his forms in Super is far more powerful then he was at any point in Z. Most of the main cast has continued to get stronger as the story progresses, the only exception was Gohan before the current arc.

[Se7enSword]

Originally Posted by Tong

Good episode. It was mere speculation before, but now Vados has confirmed that the Potara fusion multiplies the sum of the fusees powerlevels, whereas Fusion dance is merely a sum.

This is very inconsistent with what we know. We only know that fusion dance's condition is that the 2 Fusee's must have the same power level and similar height in order to fuse. Looking at Gotenks it's clear it's not a simple case of 1+1=2 as SS3 Gotenks is known to be much stronger than SS3 Goku and there is no way that Trunks or Goten would be a match for either Goku or Vegeta individually even if their power doubled. So it probably has some unknown multiplier associated with, who knows what that is though.

Secondly, we know that Potara fusion has some sort of hidden bonus like Goku and Vegeta's rivalry bonus from Buu saga but even then a newly base form fusion surpassing SSG Goku the SSG version that is about speed in an instant is ludicrous. It's up to the writers in the end to write them however they like and power levels have been inconsistent in Super throughout.

[Tong]

Originally Posted by Se7enSword

This is very inconsistent with what we know. We only know that fusion dance's condition is that the 2 Fusee's must have the same power level and similar height in order to fuse. Looking at Gotenks it's clear it's not a simple case of 1+1=2 as SS3 Gotenks is known to be much stronger than SS3 Goku and there is no way that Trunks or Goten would be a match for either Goku or Vegeta individually even if their power doubled. So it probably has some unknown multiplier associated with, who knows what that is though.

Fair enough I admit that I said things too literally, because if fusion dance was really just a sum then Gotenks would never had a chance against Buu.
But even then Potara is stronger than Fusion dance.

[SilverGlavenus]

Ofc potara is superior. Base Vegito owned Buuhan while base Gotenks got rekt by Fat Buu.

But i'm having a hard time accepting the fact that base Kefla can outspeed SSG. We did not see this much of a boost in Zamasu fight. Goku managed to stall Merged Zamasu and Vegito was having a pretty tough time against him too.

Maybe they plan on making Goku abuse UI until his aura turns red like in the opening.

[azenable]

Originally Posted by Fenrir_valindri

Yes, because at the time Kale couldn't control her LSSJ form, and Caulifla is a transformation addict and wants to learn how to be SS3 herself.

Mystic Gohan was only stronger then SS3 Goku in Z, do you honestly want to claim that Mystic Gohan from Z is stronger then SS3 Goku in the current super arc?

Frieza has also gotten stronger since return of F, as his exchange with Goku before the tournament proved. He still went Golden to knock Cabba out as well.

People need to stop assuming a transformation has a stagnant power level, they are all multipliers of their base strength levels. Goku in any of his forms in Super is far more powerful then he was at any point in Z. Most of the main cast has continued to get stronger as the story progresses, the only exception was Gohan before the current arc.

erm this is not Goku at his peak with 20x kaio ken. its a weaken goku using some donated energy from Freeza. maybe thats why his only barely matching Califa.

[Archon_Wing]

Originally Posted by SilverGlavenus

Not really, even if they do have greater potential, they still cannot close the gap between U7's saiyans and U6's saiyans with potential alone.

They didn't though. Vegeta had to teach Cabba how to do it, or otherwise none of them would have never known how to do it. This is pretty consistent where one person unlocking a new transformation makes it easier for others to follow.

Sure they do have better pace, but relying on that is the same as disregarding all of the training and hardships U7's saiyans went through to achieve power. You'll see my points more below. And besides, we only meet few members of the Saiyans race in both universes, so stating one race is superior to the other is not really valid. ToP gathers the strongest warriors, not the race itself so there's that.

Sure, it's probably true that your average saiyan in u6 also isn't that strong. Potential is a huge factor in the series. I'd even argue that hard work is the exception. We have the humans that have trained their whole lives that are nowhere near the rest of the cast. Frieza trains for a few months and is stronger than anyone. And we also have the sons which already surpassed their fathers at an early age. So they have much more potential, but then again note how they fell behind rapidly without training. So it's not everything, but it sure helps.

It is very much likely that their inexperience in dealing with truly harsh situations is what makes them unable to win battles reserved for umm.... main characters. That would probably come into play soon enough. And given Goku's exhausted state, honestly whatever Kafla or whatever is showing is going to look stronger by comparison.

[Se7enSword]

Originally Posted by SilverGlavenus

Ofc potara is superior. Base Vegito owned Buuhan while base Gotenks got rekt by Fat Buu.

That's only relevant for the anime filler, this never happened in the manga at all where powerlevel was actually consistent. Not to mention that Goku and Vegeta possess vastly superior base power level than Goten and Trunks.

There is no tangible evidence which is better except that Potara has a longer fusion time though that's pretty pointless too when writers play the time limit card.

Originally Posted by azenable

erm this is not Goku at his peak with 20x kaio ken. its a weaken goku using some donated energy from Freeza. maybe thats why his only barely matching Califa.

As the episode showed, the only thing restricting Goku with reduced stamina/energy was accessing stronger SS forms. Like how he couldn't go SS3 an episode except for an instant and how he went SSG in the recent one. Outside of that he seems to have no issues as he showed to overwhelm SS Calufla as base.

[Tong]

Originally Posted by Se7enSword

There is no tangible evidence which is better except that Potara has a longer fusion time though that's pretty pointless too when writers play the time limit card.

Actually, according to Daizenshuu (DB's official encyclopedia)

"Item Dictionary", Daizenshuu #7: "To use [the Potara], the two people who will merge simply have to each take one of the two earrings and put in on their left or right ear, respectively. Furthermore, after merging, the power is greater than with Fusion".

[Se7enSword]

Originally Posted by Tong

Actually, according to Daizenshuu (DB's official encyclopedia)

That's pretty vague. We know it has hidden bonuses like rivalry bonus but not how much it is better than fusion dance since there is no direct comparison to make with.

[GDB]

It doesn't really matter how much better it is when the argument is "which is better". If A is any value better than B, then A is better. And it's said at least once in the series and now in the side material that A is better than B.

[Lord C]

Problem is the wikia links to the bellow while stating this info confirms the Fusion Dance result is stronger than the Potara. Meaning we have two conflicting official sources

Spoiler for I have no moonrune reading technique though:

[DragoMuseveni]

Wait so that means we will have a Goku and Vegeta fusion? But wich . The dance fusion will last for what 3-4 minutes and the potara fusion for 4-5 minutes? Because the energy consumption is big for both fusions