Fate/Zero - Generic Discussion Thread

[chaos_alfa]

Originally Posted by Dextro

If I'm remembering it correctly a servant in the holy grail war only needs to exist as a hero in the aggregated conscience of humanity, he doesn't have to be based on a real person that existed.

I'm aware of that, otherwise Medusa would also not have been possible. I was just thinking Robin Hood wasn't prominent enough, but after checking Wikipedia again it seems I was mistaken.

[Dengar]

Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor

When I said “Medusa” in my previous post, I meant the legend of Medusa IRL (not Fate-version). You know, the one who got raped by Poseidon, turned into half-snake monster with funky hair by Athena, and then got decapitated by Perseus? You're welcomed to correct me if I’m wrong, but I think there’s no record of IRL-Medusa possessing “rider ability”. Sure, Pegasus sprang from the blood of her decapitated neck, but that’s it.

I apologize for the rather uncalled-for snark. Anyway, the way I see it, Nasu determined that the fact that Pegasus was born from her blood to be a qualifier for the Rider class, and the Riding skill comes pre-equipped with the class, which was then boosted to the appropreate rank from her affinity for legendary creatures.

Not sure why she has this thing called Belerophon tho.

[Obelisk ze Tormentor]

Originally Posted by Dengar

I apologize for the rather uncalled-for snark.

It's cool.

Originally Posted by Dengar

Anyway, the way I see it, Nasu determined that the fact that Pegasus was born from her blood to be a qualifier for the Rider class, and the Riding skill comes pre-equipped with the class, which was then boosted to the appropreate rank from her affinity for legendary creatures.

That, my friend, is the point of my argument. Nasu can just pick any historical/fictional/legendary figures from any source and tweaks it however he wants for reasons he finds worth the effort. That fact is simple enough that I often laugh whenever some "elite fans" (not necessarily referring to you) are arguing persistently whether certain figures can be a servant or not. I mean, seriously, if Nasu can change Arthur into a petite lady, Sasaki Kojiro into a pure fictional character that doesn't exist, and sadistic-but-tragic fellows like Medea & Blue Beard into Heroic Spirits, he can basically do anything to any character . Hell, when Nasu really want to do certain things to (or with) a certain character, he'll throw the actual legend/mythology outta the window and create his own version of the mythology (again, look at Nasu's Arthur & Medusa) .

Originally Posted by Dengar

Not sure why she has this thing called Belerophon tho.

(Just forget Hollywood's Perseus) Belerophon was the actual hero capable of riding Pegasus (yes, the very same winged-horse who previously sprang from Medusa's blood) and fought the notorious Chimera. I guess the only connection between Medusa & Belerophon is Pegasus. Thus, Nasu made Belerophon into the horse-reins that Medusa use to control Pegasus (much like Gilgamesh's Enkidu). For all its worth, I think Belerophon is the more proper Rider than Medusa.

[Dengar]

Te be honest though, I quite like the fact that in the Nasuverse, the legends "aren't always that accurate". :P

[Obelisk ze Tormentor]

Originally Posted by Dengar

Te be honest though, I quite like the fact that in the Nasuverse, the legends "aren't always that accurate". :P

That's the thing I've been pointing at since my first reply to you . When Nasu goes that route, he can do anything to any character (not restricted by his/her actual background story anymore). And frankly, that's nothing special these days.

To compare it with something more mainstream: look at what Mike Bay's done in his Bayformers III. He made Neil Armstong & Buzz Aldrin found Autobot's ship on the moon during their past mission (the real moon, not a sound-stage ).

[chaos_alfa]

Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor

That, my friend, is the point of my argument. Nasu can just pick any historical/fictional/legendary figures from any source and tweaks it however he wants for reasons he finds worth the effort. That fact is simple enough that I often laugh whenever some "elite fans" (not necessarily referring to you) are arguing persistently whether certain figures can be a servant or not. I mean, seriously, if Nasu can change Arthur into a petite lady, Sasaki Kojiro into a pure fictional character that doesn't exist, and sadistic-but-tragic fellows like Medea & Blue Beard into Heroic Spirits, he can basically do anything to any character . Hell, when Nasu really want to do certain things to (or with) a certain character, he'll throw the actual legend/mythology outta the window and create his own version of the mythology (again, look at Nasu's Arthur & Medusa) .

Medea & Blue Beard aren't actually "good" Heroic Spirits. The only reason they could be summoned is because the Grail got corrupted.

Originally Posted by http://typemoon.wikia.com/wiki/Holy_Grail

Additionally, since the corruption, the Grail has been able to summon evil-aligned Heroic Spirits; something that wasn't allowed before. Heroic Spirits are humans whose legends are passed down in the memory of humanity, regardless of their alignment; the Grail originally was allowed to summon only "good" Heroic Spirits, but ever since the corruption, spirits like Gilles de Rais, Medusa and Medea can be summoned despite being anti-heroes rather than heroes in the common understanding of the term.

[Obelisk ze Tormentor]

Originally Posted by chaos_alfa

Medea & Blue Beard aren't actually "good" Heroic Spirits. The only reason they could be summoned is because the Grail got corrupted.

So, Heroic Spirits actually includes really-bad guys too? I guess I missed the memo. Thanks for the reminder. I stand corrected regarding Medea & Gilles .

[Dengar]

Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor

That's the thing I've been pointing at since my first reply to you . When Nasu goes that route, he can do anything to any character (not restricted by his/her actual background story anymore). And frankly, that's nothing special these days.

To be honest, I do feel like there's a few limits to this. Like, in Fateverse, while the characters themselves may be different from what we know in common legend, the things they were known FOR are the same.

[Obelisk ze Tormentor]

Originally Posted by Dengar

To be honest, I do feel like there's a few limits to this. Like, in Fateverse, while the characters themselves may be different from what we know in common legend, the things they were known FOR are the same.

Of course some of their signature traits remains the same (while he changed the rest into whatever he wants). If not, why use those well-known characters at all? One prime example: Arthur is still King of Britain and possesses the legendary Excalibur, but at the same time, Nasu slapped the actual legend in the face by making him a girl . Tbh, that kind of gender-screwing is something I expect from countless Sangoku & Sengoku parody animes, not srsbsns like Nasu-verse which previously already done well with Tsukihime.

[Nayim]

I don't where I should add this info.



Fate/Koha-Ace, The parody series from KOHA-ACE 4koma. (It’s now part of franchise, blame Kohaku & Takeuchi).

At the close to end of WWII, IJA won at holy grail war. IJA created a new bomb that core was a holy grail. It called 81st holy grail bomb, a new special weapon to protect Japan versus enemies. Artificial grail Held Krieger (ヘルト・クリーガー) came from German 3rd Reich’s magi division. Then 7 American War Salvation battles for a holy grail bomb. This was a holy grail war that hidden in history. Title is 帝都聖杯奇譚 mean Tokyo holy grail strange saga.

Of course, this is parody series made by Kohaku’s idea.

The list of servant:

Sakura Saber (Okita Souji)
Demon Archer (Oda Nobunaga, in before Akiha Tohno’s ancestor in joke)
???
???
???
???
???

All servants are Japanese historical figures.

[bhl88]

[Fireminer]

Fate/Hollow Ataraxia To Be Fully-Voiced On Vita
Read more at: http://www.siliconera.com/2014/02/04...As6VY4JMJPT.99

[DaItalianFish]

Finally got around to start reading the LN. Just got to the part where Kariya talks with Sakura before the war begins, and damn... I was almost crying. To know what happens later on makes that scene a lot more powerful. Especially some of the last lines of it:

The heartaches that Sakura endured this year would undoubtedly follow her throughout her life, but he hoped it would gradually heal as time went on. He hoped that her heart was not given torments that equated to a deadly blow.
All that is left for him to do is to pray. The one that can heal the wounds in this girl’s heart is not Kariya. There is not much time left for him; he is unable to take up that job.
That is a job for those whom, in the future, are guaranteed of their lives.

Those lines alone make me feel that the only ending I can accept of F/SN is HF Good. And this is coming from someone who prefers Rin/Saber to Sakura.

[Brother Coa]

Yeah, her story is sad as hell just like everyone else story ( Shirou losing his family and everyone around him, Rin losing her father and mother, Saber sacrificing her humanity and in the end got betrayed, Kiritsugu losing everyone he ever cared in his life except Shirou etc... ).

That is why I like Fate - it's grimdark. But trough the story it fights to turn that Grimdarkness into something much better, even if it's not always happy ending in either route ( someone always dies ). As for Sakura I am fine with her fate in either route, since Shirou as her Senpai took care of her in Fate and UBW. And I am certain that Rin got closer to her as well during the plot of those two routes, so she is cared in other routes as well ( especially Fate and UBW since action of others in those routes didn't move her into position where she had to suffer all that she suffered in HF ).

[sona-nyl]

Uh I'm not anti Fate and UBW like som other Sakura fans are but implying that she ended up happier after Fate or UBW (especially UBW) is pretty disturbing. Also nothing in any of those routes supports Rin getting closer to Sakura especially since we know that Rin never ended up approuching Sakura in UBW though she was close too.

She probably ended up suffering more after Fate and UBW because she had to endure even more years without her sister and possibly without Shirou too and when the grail dismantling war happens Zouken is going to stop at nothing to win. His actions would undoubtly be even more extreme than during HF because he would have nothing to lose and Sakura would suffer even more.

[Cherry_Lover]

Originally Posted by DaItalianFish

Those lines alone make me feel that the only ending I can accept of F/SN is HF Good. And this is coming from someone who prefers Rin/Saber to Sakura.

Yeah, after playing through HF, the Fate and UBW endings leave a really bad taste in the mouth. Sure, they look happy (especially UBW), but whilst Rin and Shirou are having their nice friendly talk about going off to London, Sakura is probably either being worm-raped or feeling generally depressed about the thought of losing the one good thing in her life (and to the sister who abandoned her, at that).

Originally Posted by Brother Coa

Yeah, her story is sad as hell just like everyone else story ( Shirou losing his family and everyone around him, Rin losing her father and mother, Saber sacrificing her humanity and in the end got betrayed, Kiritsugu losing everyone he ever cared in his life except Shirou etc... ).

I think Sakura's is worse. I mean, everything that applies to Rin applies to Sakura too (with the added kick in the teeth that they actually threw her away rather than just dying), and she has to suffer horribly too.

That is why I like Fate - it's grimdark. But trough the story it fights to turn that Grimdarkness into something much better, even if it's not always happy ending in either route ( someone always dies ). As for Sakura I am fine with her fate in either route, since Shirou as her Senpai took care of her in Fate and UBW.

Except that Zouken is still around in Fate and UBW and still controls her. It's hard to say she's "taken care of".

And I am certain that Rin got closer to her as well during the plot of those two routes, so she is cared in other routes as well ( especially Fate and UBW since action of others in those routes didn't move her into position where she had to suffer all that she suffered in HF ).

It's difficult to say. Rin clearly does care, but she also doesn't see how horrible Sakura's life is, and seems to think it's best to keep her distance. Hopefully she'd grow out of that, but it's not clear.

Originally Posted by Usami_Haru

Uh I'm not anti Fate and UBW like som other Sakura fans are but implying that she ended up happier after Fate or UBW (especially UBW) is pretty disturbing. Also nothing in any of those routes supports Rin getting closer to Sakura especially since we know that Rin never ended up approuching Sakura in UBW though she was close too.

She probably ended up suffering more after Fate and UBW because she had to endure even more years without her sister and possibly without Shirou too and when the grail dismantling war happens Zouken is going to stop at nothing to win. His actions would undoubtly be even more extreme than during HF because he would have nothing to lose and Sakura would suffer even more.

I find it hard to believe that Rin would just forget about Sakura, especially post-UBW where she's with Shirou, but whether she'd ever work out what was happening and if she could find a way to save her if she did is another matter.

If nothing else, though, I would expect her to be involved in the grail dismantling thing, which would hopefully result in her being saved, albeit belatedly.

Also, post-Fate Sakura is friendly with Ilya, and I strongly suspect Ilya would be capable of working out what is going on and getting rid of Zouken. Plus, she seems at least somewhat aware of the Matou family's corruption, and would probably become more so if she ever came into contact with Zouken.

What frustrates me, though, is that we get absolutely no indication whatsoever of her fate in those routes. She could get saved, yes, but she could also just be left to rot.

[Brother Coa]

Ok guys I am not trying to be heartless here, I just assumed that giving that there was no explanation on what happened after Fate and UBW regarding her - we only see her being there and still living her life.
Besides, once the Grail is dismantled Zouken had no use of her what-so-ever so why is it so hard to imagine that he just let her be after 5'th was was over?
Just because there is no explanation I choose to believe in this and that's how I settled it regarding her fate. After Fate and UBW scenarios she probably got closer to Rin, gone to colleague, get married and die happily in old age surrounded by friends and family.

[GDB]

Spoiler for Post 5th war:

Grail isn't dismantled until 10 years after the 5th war in the Fate and UBW routes, and there's no telling whether or not Zouken would activate the Shadow in order to attempt to protect the grail. As such, she could very potentially be killed during said deactivation war.

Basically, we don't know what happens to her, as there's seriously potential for anything to happen.

[Cherry_Lover]

Originally Posted by Brother Coa

Ok guys I am not trying to be heartless here, I just assumed that giving that there was no explanation on what happened after Fate and UBW regarding her - we only see her being there and still living her life.
Besides, once the Grail is dismantled Zouken had no use of her what-so-ever so why is it so hard to imagine that he just let her be after 5'th was was over?
Just because there is no explanation I choose to believe in this and that's how I settled it regarding her fate. After Fate and UBW scenarios she probably got closer to Rin, gone to colleague, get married and die happily in old age surrounded by friends and family.

The problem is that Zouken's soul is in a worm that is inside Sakura. And the other worms inside her aren't going to just vanish either (indeed, I don't think even Zouken himself is capable of removing them safely by that point). He can't really just "let her go" (for one thing, she could tell people about him) and, whilst I doubt he would just kill her if he did have no more use for her (because doing so would cause Shirou and Rin to go after him) I don't see him giving up on the Grail easily given that obtaining it is quite literally his sole reason for living.

And, she's "just been there and living her life" for the past eleven years. That doesn't demonstrate that she's free of Zouken.

Originally Posted by GDB

Spoiler for Post 5th war:

Grail isn't dismantled until 10 years after the 5th war in the Fate and UBW routes, and there's no telling whether or not Zouken would activate the Shadow in order to attempt to protect the grail. As such, she could very potentially be killed during said deactivation war.

Basically, we don't know what happens to her, as there's seriously potential for anything to happen.

Well, it's not as simple as just "activating the shadow" (Zouken isn't capable of that without the Great Grail around and without priming Sakura properly), but there is no doubt Zouken would do anything in his power to prevent the Grail being dismantled, and I would imagine Sakura would get dragged into that.

[Sansker]

The thing with Zouken is that he isn't even mention on the other routes outside HF. So to me is kind of strange seeing how much he does he in that route when in the others he just seems to say "Nah, I will get it next time". Hey, that was pretty much his decision Zero. Which shows the kind of prepare, well skilled and forward thinking guy he is... and to be honest doesn't impress me.