[Game] Umineko no Naku Koro ni Chiru - Ep. 7 Requiem of the golden witch

[AuraTwilight]

Well, I do get where you're coming from.
But if we go down that road, then nothing really matters because everything we see is created from someone's mind, and we can't believe in anything.
That would be... unfair to anyone that reads the novel trying to unravel the mystery.

....that's not a logical conclusion to what Renall's saying at all. And even then, since the various episodes of Umineko ARE a fiction being written by authors in universe (Featherine, the message bottles, etc), we can question the contents of the stories and their validity. It's perfectly alright to do so, and even expected. Moreover, it is perfectly and entirely fair, since this point was stressed before Yasu even came up.

The blood connections, can have a meaning (besides the believing or not part) because it gives you a why dunnit. Even when you believe in something, the truth in the end always has a meaning.

The whydunnist exists regardless of whether or not the blood connections exist. Even if there is no blood connection, Yasu believes it is and is acting on that premise. A Whydunnit is allowed to be based on a misconception.

[Renall]

Originally Posted by KazePT

Well, I do get where you're coming from.
But if we go down that road, then nothing really matters because everything we see is created from someone's mind, and we can't believe in anything.
That would be... unfair to anyone that reads the novel trying to unravel the mystery.

The blood connections, can have a meaning (besides the believing or not part) because it gives you a why dunnit. Even when you believe in something, the truth in the end always has a meaning.

Does it matter any more or less to Yasu if it's true if he/she doesn't know?

Does it matter to Battler whether what someone believed was true or false (even if he knows the truth himself and it contradicts), if the goal was to understand that person and how they think and feel?

And on another point: Every good mystery novel is fiction. Every single one. Every locked room, every bizarre murder, was dreamed up in somebody's head. What difference does it really make? What difference does it make if the same is true of a character in a story? It can still be answered.

[KazePT]

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

....that's not a logical conclusion to what Renall's saying at all. And even then, since the various episodes of Umineko ARE a fiction being written by authors in universe (Featherine, the message bottles, etc), we can question the contents of the stories and their validity. It's perfectly alright to do so, and even expected. Moreover, it is perfectly and entirely fair, since this point was stressed before Yasu even came up.

Oh God.
I never said we shouldn't speculate about what we see, in fact everyone knows that most of what we see(saw) is not the truth but metaphors of the truth.
What I was trying to say is that we have to know that some of what we see is true, especially when we enter the Chiru arcs or you never get the chance to follow a real line of logical reasoning, only if you are some sort magician too.

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

The whydunnist exists regardless of whether or not the blood connections exist. Even if there is no blood connection, Yasu believes it is and is acting on that premise. A whydunnit is allowed to be based on a misconception.

Then again, I was just trying to get across that a blood connection isn't totally worthless, and can play a part on a whydunnit.
(And, if we base a whydunnit in a misconception, of course we fall into a never ending reasons for anyone in the masion to become the murderer).

[Yoru no Uta]

Hello everyone.
Tis pleasure to make your acquaintance.

WOW. I came here to look for a good theory, and there are lot's in here.
However i would like to perform some questions.

This Yasu you're talking about. Is this person supposed to be the one that makes its appearance (well, for the sake of a good understanding, let's ignore the true meaning of the word, since neither a drawing is shown ) in the beginning of the game??

Where do your theories about this person derivate from? Have you read further than the 25% patch? My person is very interested in the origin of these theories. When I first saw this scene, I thought that that character was just an excuse to introduce 'our most beloved ' detective ( please, do forgive me, Lady Erika ).

Renall, why the refuse to accept the belief that Beatrice had a son / daughter. I do believe this point to be of importance. Tis this character that supposedly erupts every event that occurs in episode 5.

And just to let every person know, I do believe in most events of chiru episodes ( the bigger the episode number, the more facts, reality, if you prefer, it contains ), otherwise we would be all lost.

Lady (?) AuraTwilight, if you refuse every event that occurs on that fantasy island, you would destroy every base you have to sustain your beliefs. We must perform an autopsy ( not my words ) in this meta world presented to us, and from there extract our conclusions.

To conclude, Witch Hunter KazePT, the whydunnit theory ( and by the feeling I get when I read your posts, you also mean the 'Whodunit ' ) does make quite sense. This aspect is quite known for starting quarrels in many novels ( and tis not different in this story). However, I must agree that the ' whydunnit ' (once again the feeling of ' whodunnit ') can be based in a misconception, and that indeed, throws us in a infinite loop of deduction.

In my opinion ( my spotlight ), I am lead to believe that Battler is Kinzo and Beatrice2 ‘s son, they're physical appearance is quite striking. Au contraire, I am made to believe that Shannon does not possess that connection, since if she would, Kinzo would never allow Natsuhi to mistreat her .
Let us hope that the next patch may illuminate us more in regard to this themes
( are you listening, DragonKnight?).

[AuraTwilight]

This Yasu you're talking about. Is this person supposed to be the one that makes its appearance (well, for the sake of a good understanding, let's ignore the true meaning of the word, since neither a drawing is shown ) in the beginning of the game??

Where do your theories about this person derivate from? Have you read further than the 25% patch? My person is very interested in the origin of these theories. When I first saw this scene, I thought that that character was just an excuse to introduce 'our most beloved ' detective ( please, do forgive me, Lady Erika ).

Renall, why the refuse to accept the belief that Beatrice had a son / daughter. I do believe this point to be of importance. Tis this character that supposedly erupts every event that occurs in episode 5.

Yasu is a character who appears in Episode Seven. I won't say anything more to prevent from spoiling you, but knowing that, without real knowledge of who and what we're talking about, you're just going to misunderstand a lot of things.

Lady (?) AuraTwilight, if you refuse every event that occurs on that fantasy island, you would destroy every base you have to sustain your beliefs. We must perform an autopsy ( not my words ) in this meta world presented to us, and from there extract our conclusions.

I'm not saying that, though. Just because I submit that we should be critical of what we're told, and that what we're being shown IS technically fiction, does not mean I'm advocating discarding everything we're told.

In my opinion ( my spotlight ), I am lead to believe that Battler is Kinzo and Beatrice2 ‘s son, they're physical appearance is quite striking. Au contraire, I am made to believe that Shannon does not possess that connection, since if she would, Kinzo would never allow Natsuhi to mistreat her .

Kinzo has absolutely no knowledge of his relationship to Yasu/Shannon at all. Yasu/Shannon is a servant precisely because he thought such a child is already dead.

As for Battler, he can't be Kinzo and Beatrice II's son, since that would mean Rudolf isn't his father, and that's not going to fly.

[Yoru no Uta]

"As for Battler, he can't be Kinzo and Beatrice II's son, since that would mean Rudolf isn't his father, and that's not going to fly. "

Allow me to strike you here.
I request that you formulate your argument and present it. You gave your opinion and have not supported it.

Nevetheless, allow to formulate my attack.

Tis never mentioned that Battler is Rudolf's Son in Red. He only know that he is Ushiromiya and is not Asumu Son (testefied in red, by Beatrice, in episode 4).

This does not go agains my theory.

Ready, Steady, SHOOT.

P.s: Thank you for the information on Yasu.

[Cao Ni Ma]

Originally Posted by Yoru no Uta

"As for Battler, he can't be Kinzo and Beatrice II's son, since that would mean Rudolf isn't his father, and that's not going to fly. "

Allow me to strike you here.
I request that you formulate your argument and present it. You gave your opinion and have not supported it.

Nevetheless, allow to formulate my attack.

Tis never mentioned that Battler is Rudolf's Son in Red. He only know that he is Ushiromiya and is not Asumu Son (testefied in red, by Beatrice, in episode 4).

This does not go agains my theory.

Ready, Steady, SHOOT.

P.s: Thank you for the information on Yasu.

No one except Kinzo's grandchild Battler is qualified to be an opponent
Ange is, ......my little sister - Used by Battler

Gonna have to juggle something to make this fit ie Kinzo impregnated Kyrie as well... Damn you kinzo you are sick

[AuraTwilight]

Ushiromiya Battler was born from Ushiromiya Asumu.

We know that our Battler is not the one this line is referring to, and we know Kyrie allegedly had a stillbirth. Furthermore, Battler and Ange look EXTREMELY similar, and Ange is his sister. At the very least, Battler and Ange must share atleast ONE parent, and we know Ange was born from Kyrie and Rudolf. Therefore, the common theory is That there was a baby-switch involved and that Battler is really Kyrie's child raised by Asumu, and Asumu's original child (the legal "Ushiromiya Battler") was the stillborn one.

Furthermore, it is heavily implied, if not stated almost outright, that any child between Kinzo's and Beatrice II's was the child that Natsuhi took care of before "murdering" it. To accept that Battler is a Kinzo/Beatrice child requires a baby being born, taken care of by Natsuhi, "murdered", taken to Rudolf, and swapped in for Asumu's child on the exact same day of both children's births. This isn't possible.

[LyricalAura]

Well, just for fun...

The existence of a child thrown off a cliff by Natsuhi is in question. The only sources corroborating it are Natsuhi in EP5, who is an untrustworthy viewpoint, and Bernkastel's game. The part of Bern's game addressing the child's existence may be a fragment born only from theories about EP5, and as such it could be internally "truthful" but inconsistent with the original catbox fragments.

Regarding Battler's qualifications to enter the game, the only requirement is that he be Kinzo's grandson. If he was born from incest between Beatrice-2 and Kinzo, then he would be both Kinzo's son and his grandson. The statement that "Ange is my sister" was made by Battler himself and only needs to be true in the sense that he meant "sister" at the time. That is, they are family regardless of blood relation. The same logic applies to Ange's equivalent statement.

The fact that a baby switch occurred does not automatically require that the switch took place between Asumu and Kyrie. The child of Beatrice-2 could also have been substituted in, this time with the proper motive of giving him a functioning family.

[Renall]

There is actually no evidence of a baby swap. It is purely circumstantially inferred based on what Kyrie herself said, which was simply "Asumu and I were to give birth on the same day, but my baby died and hers lived." Which, of course, she doesn't necessarily know herself (though how she wouldn't know hers died, I'm not so clear on).

Obviously the conclusion most people reach from that is a baby swap, but this is only necessarily inferred in order to support Kyrie being Battler's mother. A different interpretation would mean there isn't even an opportunity for that and thus no purpose to its justification.

[UsagiTenpura]

To say, I do not think Battler is Beato-2/Kinzo's child/the man from 19 years ago. However to give credit to the theory and add another point...

All the clues have been given in arc 1-2-3-4, that was said in red by Virgilia. The only clue I can think of referring to anyone falling from anywhere would be Battler's fear of falling.

Actually the clue thing could be taken as well as "that it is true or not, Natsuhi's baby story is entirely irrelevant to the plot of arc 1-2-3-4 and the overall truth we are supposed to reach as there is no clues concerning it in arc 1-2-3-4".

I'm not saying it is like that necessarily, however I do find it very strange that we get entirely new informations in the core arcs after that red was said. Ultimately we didn't get much, but we did get some, and that whole baby adopted by Natsuhi thing is one of them.

Unless I really missed out something in arc 1-2-3-4...

[Yoru no Uta]

Originally Posted by UsagiTenpura

Actually the clue thing could be taken as well as "that it is true or not, Natsuhi's baby story is entirely irrelevant to the plot of arc 1-2-3-4 and the overall truth we are supposed to reach as there is no clues concerning it in arc 1-2-3-4".
I'm not saying it is like that necessarily, however I do find it very strange that we get entirely new informations in the core arcs after that red was said. Ultimately we didn't get much, but we did get some, and that whole baby adopted by Natsuhi thing is one of them.
Unless I really missed out something in arc 1-2-3-4...

Indeed. Tis difficult to believe in this 19 years person, since it was not referred until chiru ( and the phone call was seen being made by LambdaDelta ). However, this condition developed all the carnage ( not that much compared to the other episodes ), leaving me to think that this knowledge may be used to perform Blackmail on the currents head's wife, in attempt to steal the so desired gold or even the head's place.
I probably could say that Kyrye and Rudolf are the guilty party on the story since bringing this (fake or real) Battler to Island had the objective to stir confusion among the family and get thhe money they required. The assassin then felt cornered, leading him / her to act.
In other words,, this 19 years may only be lie constructed based on the action that Natsuhi took many years ago. However, how did they get hold of this secret? Are the servants plotting against the family? Does anyone here was an explanation??

Furthermore, i would like to discuss the use of the red truth. The conditions were explained when this truth first appeared. Since then no new restrictions / laws were confirmed. And in episode 6, Furudo Erika states that herself is the 17th person on the island, being contradicted right after that (by red) that she's only the 16th person.
This flaw is created do to what? If red allows for such flaw, I'm sure I could exploit it when making my theories.

And a theory to finalize. This one is based on the 25% patch, so please do correct me if I am wrong (since there are persons here that have already played the full episode).

Changing the beginning conditions on the game, and allowing the 19 years child to live (if she has ever died) couldn't this person be the one using the silver ring. Yes, what I’m proposing is that, Bernkastel changed that condition and allowed to child to live until this moment in order to figure in the game ( thus having no need for a fake Battler to appear, since this time no money or other thing could be extorted, since the one he was supposed to represent was alive ) that Child being Leon Ushiromiya, and the future head since she would be Kinzo and Beatrice2's daughter, grown up was Natsuhi older daughter (since she did raise her ) / Jessica's older sister.

This theory was based in anything at all. I have no base (well, some actually) to present it and it could be nothing more than lies.
However, try me out.

Ready. Steady. SHOOT.

[Cao Ni Ma]

Its not a flaw in the red, its twisting the truth to fit into a scene. Erika was indeed the 18th person in Rokkenjima during EP5 and EP6, she didn't exist during the first 4 episodes though. There where only 17 at the time (barring shenanigans). For all we know Beatrice's and Battler's red was indicating the first 4 episodes and how Erika isn't needed to solve the puzzle of those crimes. Thus whipping her out of existence.

Also I cant make up what you are saying in the second statement.

[erneiz_hyde]

Kyrye and Rudolf are the guilty party on the story since bringing this (fake or real) Battler to Island had the objective to stir confusion among the family and get the money they required. The assassin then felt cornered, leading him / her to act.

I don't know why, but something ticked in me when I read this, maybe because it somehow addressed why the tragedy wouldn't be so big if Battler had come one year earlier or later. Maybe because the year 1986 is the year Kinzo died and Battler was used by a party who are after Kinzo's wealth and position, the real culprit did something related to this party's act.

[Yoru no Uta]

I'm sorry Cao Ni Ma, I did not got the point. Erika could never be 18th person in Rokkenjima in episode 5 or 6, because Shannon == Kanon, thus making Furudo Erika the 17th person on the island, or are implying that there´s someone else that we have not acknowledge yet.

By 2nd statement, you’re referring to the child being Leon, am I correct??

Then allow me to simplify. If Natsuhi had not pushed that servant into the cliff, that child would still be alive. If she was alive, she would have been raised has Natsuhi old daughter, and was an Ushiromiya, which would fit the picture of Leon.
Further, for her to be the heir, first there was a need for someone older to fill the post.
What I mean is if she was Kinzo’s grandaughter, first one of the older siblings would have to be elected (Krauss, Eva, Rudolf, Rosa) and then the legacy would pass to one of their child.

To simplify even more, i present this picture.
I have grandfather, a father and there's my person ( me being the son). When my grandfather dies, the one who would receive my grandfather's heritage would be my father. I would only receive that heritage when my father dies (Grandfather -> Father -> Me, and never Grandfather -> me).

Umineko is always trying to give us the idea that is a child that's going to fill Kinzo's post, but before that, one of KINZO's SONS would have to fill it first (that being Krauss, since he is the older one).
After that, the older child would get the heritage, in episode 7 being Leon, and in the remaining episodes being Jessica, even though Eva tries to put George above Jessica.

Yet Leon jumps to the front of the pile, being herself the successor, which would not provoke an mistake if she was Kinzo’s daughter (of course, one may disagree that KInzo, being he whom he is, would easily pick is granddaughter due to his.... 'extravagant' personality, just to mock his Childs).
If a fake Battler existed, it was the perfect time to put him on the chessboard. With the argument that he WAS the baby that Natsuhi tried to kill (and this being comproved by her) he would enter the race to be the heir to the fortune and heritance, thus giving an upper hand to Rudolf and Kyrie.

Could you please clarify your statement once again, about the red truth, it would be much appreciated.

Originally Posted by erneiz_hyde

I don't know why, but something ticked in me when I read this, maybe because it somehow addressed why the tragedy wouldn't be so big if Battler had come one year earlier or later. Maybe because the year 1986 is the year Kinzo died and Battler was used by a party who are after Kinzo's wealth and position, the real culprit did something related to this party's act.

If Kinzo was alive, he would recognize Battler a Fake (which is very difficult, since he seems a copy/paste from his younger times) thus destroying Kyrie's plan.
With Kinzo dead (which I'm lead to believe that with Kyrie's connections, it would be possible to discover this secret, even if it was well kept ), she could put her plan on march.

If you believe that Battler is Kinzo's son, there's a chance that Kinzo would never give him the heritance due to him leaving the family for 6 years. That way, Kyrie's plan wouldn't work, and she had to wait until Kinzo "cleaned is socks off" (do pardon the phrase).

[Jan-Poo]

Originally Posted by Yoru no Uta

To simplify even more, i present this picture.
I have grandfather, a father and there's my person ( me being the son). When my grandfather dies, the one who would receive my grandfather's heritage would be my father. I would only receive that heritage when my father dies (Grandfather -> Father -> Me, and never Grandfather -> me).

It is explained in EP7 that Lion is supposed to inherit the title directly after Kinzo, and Krauss would be at best a temporary head until Lion becomes an adult.
Yes this is strange and Will points this out but that's how it is in the world where Lion exists.

Originally Posted by Yoru no Uta

After that, the older child would get the heritage, in episode 7 being Leon, and in the remaining episodes being George ( and that's the reason there's so many attrition between Natsuhi and Eva, because Jessica, being the daughter of the heir, would have meant that she was supposed to be the next heir, which will not happen due to George being born first)

This is incorrect. Jessica is meant to marry someone who will then become the new head. George has absolutely no precedence over Jessica. Eva wants to push George as the new head, sure, but by bending the established rules.

[Yoru no Uta]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

This is incorrect. Jessica is meant to marry someone who will then become the new head. George has absolutely no precedence over Jessica. Eva wants to push George as the new head, sure, but by bending the established rules.

Tis indeed. I apologize for the error. I shall edit the above post in order to erase that petit misconception.

Do pardon me though, I must disagree with the word bending. She is reclaiming the fact that her son is a Male, and is older, to put I'm on power. It's pretty much like what Kinzo has done to her, when she wanted to be the heir of the family. Maybe she cannot tolerate the fact that Jessica will be the matriarch of the family, for that same reason??

[Cao Ni Ma]

Originally Posted by Yoru no Uta

... because Shannon == Kanonks off" (do pardon the phrase).

Although heavily implied, this hasn't been guaranteed yet. Its convenient and it solves some problems, but it also causes other ones. Glaring ones in fact, like making a character masquerade between genders, limited timelines to switch between clothings to trick people and just the scale of it happening now for years without anyone noticing it.

If they really are the same person then you would need family members as accomplices trough out the games, Hideyoshi would have to lie about what he saw in EP1 (Possible Kanon could have been threating him in that scene without us knowing), the chapel scene in EP2 has Rosa witnessing both of them together so that would mean that she's an unreliable witness, same thing happens with Gohda in that very episode. EP3 would have have her switch between clothings and locking herself as Kanon inside the chapel and hoping no one notices anything, either that or the witnesses are unreliable and there was no one inside the chapel or the parlor.

As I said before, it would be a bigger surprise in the final game for them to be two different people and then solving the closed rooms etc without revolving around name/persona tricks and the like. Given the possibility of branching endings in EP8 I think there could be something for everyone.

[Will Wright]

Originally Posted by Cao Ni Ma

Although heavily implied, this hasn't been guaranteed yet. Its convenient and it solves some problems, but it also causes other ones. Glaring ones in fact, like making a character masquerade between genders, limited timelines to switch between clothings to trick people and just the scale of it happening now for years without no one noticing it.

If they really are the same person then you would need family members as accomplices trough out the games, Hideyoshi would have to lie about what he saw in EP1 (Possible Kanon could have been threating him in that scene without us knowing), the chapel scene in EP2 has Rosa witnessing both of them together so that would mean that she's an unreliable witness, same thing happens with Gohda in that very episode. EP3 would have have her switch between clothings and locking herself as Kanon inside the chapel and hoping no one notices anything, either that or the witnesses are unreliable and there was no one inside the chapel or the parlor.

As I said before, it would be a bigger surprise in the final game for them to be two different people and then solving the closed rooms etc without revolving around name/persona tricks and the like. Given the possibility of branching endings in EP8 I think there could be something for everyone.

The locked rooms can be solved without using Shkanon. The Golden Age can destroy The Golden Witch's illusion without so much as breaking a sweat.

The problem would be that Umineko as a whole would suck a lot more if it hinted towards something so much only to psych the reader out without a justification other than LOL TROLLING.

Shkanon is a bad writing decision for the most part. It doesn't make enough sense, it's not the only solution that the writer could have used...And even so, it can still turn out good.

Depending on how Ryuukishi pulls it off, it could still be very entertaining. But I somehow doubt it will happen.

[Jan-Poo]

Originally Posted by Yoru no Uta

Tis indeed. I apologize for the error. I shall edit the above post in order to erase that petit misconception.

Do pardon me though, I must disagree with the word bending. She is reclaiming the fact that her son is a Male, and is older, to put I'm on power. It's pretty much like what Kinzo has done to her, when she wanted to be the heir of the family. Maybe she cannot tolerate the fact that Jessica will be the matriarch of the family, for that same reason??

What you say is correct but it's still bending the rules. The succession of the headship works the same way as in most European royal families. It doesn't matter at all that George was born first, he's still a child of a branch family while Jessica is the only child of the main family.

The situation with Krauss and Eva was different because they are siblings, and the firstborn male will inevitably be the next in line of succession.

George is not Jessica's brother, he's the cousin and therefore doesn't have any precedence. George would be the next in line if Krauss never had any heir, in which case the family of the latter would extinguish and the second family in line (Eva's) would take over.

For five years Eva has been sure that George would be the next head since apparently Natsuhi couldn't bear any child. We can only imagine her rage when almost 12 years after her marriage Natsuhi announced her pregnancy.

Eva knows that she doesn't have the upper hand but she still tries to make Kinzo bypass the rules and make George the new head, on the ground that Jessica is a woman and that she isn't really fit for the headship while George has been raised for that very end.