Fate/Zero - Episode 7 Discussion / Poll

[Kokukirin]

Originally Posted by Moekou

By the way, since many people are calling Kiritsugu a moron for alerting Kayneth at the end, I can think of a justification. The Contender he pulled out at the end is a single-shot gun. At the very least, in real life this is because it exchanges ammunition for rifle-like accuracy and power. Thus, it's all or nothing. He's screwed if fails to at least critically injure Kayneth if not kill him.

As you may have noticed, Kayneth is immobile when he's in his mercury defense mode. Since people are speculating the bullet in the gun has strong anti-magic properties, Kiritsugu would want to make sure he hits. It would sure suck if a surprised but alert Kayneth instinctively tries to dodge or use some other magic to help him effectively do so, or even just takes a non-fatal wound and keep going. Perhaps unlikely, but we've already seen Kiritsugu isn't someone who takes chances. Thus, by alerting Kayneth and firing his machine gun as a decoy, he's making sure Kayneth just stood still with his mercury defense without making any attempts to dodge. Assuming the Contender fires anti-magic bullets, Kiritsugu would get a free, guaranteed shot.

I don't think mobility is the issue. They are, what, 3 meters away from each other? Kiritsugu should hit a fly at this range. It's unlikely that Kayneth can dodge bullets like Kenshin.

My speculation is that the mercury defense has a weakness when it attacks. So when the mercury moves to attack Kiritsugu, he can fire at Kayneth between the gap.

[Randomzx]

Originally Posted by PhoenixFlare

One question: Despite the high-fantasy setting of Fate/Zero, did no one actually question why the policeman actually dared touch Kayneth's mercury sphere since it is known to be a particularly dangerous chemical? :S

He was most likely being influenced by mind manipulation. Contact with the sphere is probably needed for a more specific command.

[larethian]

Originally Posted by PhoenixFlare

One question: Despite the high-fantasy setting of Fate/Zero, did no one actually question why the policeman actually dared touch Kayneth's mercury sphere since it is known to be a particularly dangerous chemical? :S

I guess he skipped Chemistry classes.

[ReddyRedWolf]

Originally Posted by Kokukirin

Don't you think you are contradicting yourself? Kayneth cannot be a coward for taking on Einzberns and Kiritsugu on their home territory by himself. And Waver is not even seen as a threat to him.

He is attacking the Einsbern castle as sitting around almost got him killed. Even his wife called him a coward for not showing himself in that Meet and Greet . He is a cornered animal as shown with the guy touching his ball. And cornered animals lash out.

Besides Saber is distracted with Caster at the moment. Over confident he is properly prepared.

Kayneth El Melloi's pride is also his weakpoint. He doesn't like admitting those who go against conventional mage traditions could be better than he is. Which is why he humiliated Waver and wants to kill Einsbern master that resorts to dirty tricks. Unlike Tokiomi-Kirei alliance he doesn't know who he is dealing with.

Heck even Iskandar called him coward unfit to be his master.

Pride with fear is a combination that can get him killed.

[Kokukirin]

Originally Posted by ReddyRedWolf

He is attacking the Einsbern castle as sitting around almost got him killed. Even his wife called him a coward for not showing himself in that Meet and Greet . He is a cornered animal as shown with the guy touching his ball. And cornered animals lash out.

Besides Saber is distracted with Caster at the moment. Over confident he is properly prepared.

Kayneth El Melloi's pride is also his weakpoint. He doesn't like admitting those who go against conventional mage traditions could be better than he is. Which is why he humiliated Waver and wants to kill Einsbern master that resorts to dirty tricks. Unlike Tokiomi-Kirei alliance he doesn't know who he is dealing with.

Heck even Iskandar called him coward unfit to be his master.

Pride with fear is a combination that can get him killed.

He is proud, yes. It is quite evident. He is also not very well-prepared to face Kiritsugu. His judgement is questionable at times.

But to call him a coward is wrong. You cannot base your opinion on what characters say. Iskander was reckless and defied common-sense. Sola was likely attracted by Lancer's curse and wanted to back Lancer when Kayneth scolded him. It is common for masters to hide for safety of themselves. Did you forget Kiritsugu was also hiding during the "Meet and Greet"? Meanwhile Tokiomi has not even stepped outside his house.

As I said before, if Kayneth truly feared the Einzberns, he would have brought Lancer along with him to storm the castle. He cannot be both overconfident and scared.

[giorno]

Originally Posted by ReddyRedWolf

He is attacking the Einsbern castle as sitting around almost got him killed.

he is attacking the Einzbern castle because it's a good opportunity to capture lrisviel

Even his wife called him a coward for not showing himself in that Meet and Greet .

pft. As if...

He is a cornered animal as shown with the guy touching his ball. And cornered animals lash out.

No, he isn't cornered at all, he commanded the guy to take the ball away because he and Sola were inside a freaking mercury ball in the middle of the street surrounded by ordinary people. And There's a masquerade to be kept

Besides Saber is distracted with Caster at the moment. Over confident he is properly prepared.

He sent Lancer to deal with Caster, when he could have sent Lancer to kill Kiritsugu. With Saber in that condition, even if Kiritsugu managed to use a command spell to summon her to his side, the battle would've still been overwhelmingly in Lancer's favour, he actually would have very likely killed BOTH saber and her master right there, in fact...

He doesn't like admitting those who go against conventional mage traditions could be better than he is. Which is why he humiliated Waver and wants to kill Einsbern master that resorts to dirty tricks.

lol no. He humiliated Waver because he truly believed Waver's paper to be utter bullshit(and thus, Waver to be a moron who deserved to be humiliated), and he doesn't even see Kiritsugu as a threat precisely because Kiritsugu is resorting to traps and modern weapons instead of fighting him head on with magecraft like a magus would.

Heck even Iskandar called him coward unfit to be his master.

Iskander said that for Waver...also...he's Iskander...

Pride with fear is a combination that can get him killed.

except he doesn't have an ounce of fear at all. He fully believes that him winning the HGW is merely a natural conclusion, because, well, that's how it's always been for him(he is one of the most powerful magi in the world)...

[Vicious108]

Originally Posted by Moekou

By the way, since many people are calling Kiritsugu a moron for alerting Kayneth at the end, I can think of a justification. The Contender he pulled out at the end is a single-shot gun. At the very least, in real life this is because it exchanges ammunition for rifle-like accuracy and power. Thus, it's all or nothing. He's screwed if fails to at least critically injure Kayneth if not kill him.

As you may have noticed, Kayneth is immobile when he's in his mercury defense mode. Since people are speculating the bullet in the gun has strong anti-magic properties, Kiritsugu would want to make sure he hits. It would sure suck if a surprised but alert Kayneth instinctively tries to dodge or use some other magic to help him effectively do so, or even just takes a non-fatal wound and keep going. Perhaps unlikely, but we've already seen Kiritsugu isn't someone who takes chances. Thus, by alerting Kayneth and firing his machine gun as a decoy, he's making sure Kayneth just stood still with his mercury defense without making any attempts to dodge. Assuming the Contender fires anti-magic bullets, Kiritsugu would get a free, guaranteed shot.

Yeah, I also took Kiritsugu warning Kayneth as him wanting to lure him into a false sense of security by first firing expectedly ineffective regular bullets, and then, once his opponent believes himself to be absolutely protected against the onslaught, utilise the special gun for a basically guaranteed hit. So yeah, not a case of plot induced stupidity in order to prolong the fight at all.

[jonli]

Is it just me but wouldn't the mercury poison Kayneth and his wife too? That's an awful lot of mercury and to be in close contact with it...you know...kind of bad. I mean he is a magus and all but, they're human no?

There's something that I think I missed. I thought they have Irisviel hang out with Saber in public so people would think she was Saber's master, so Kiritsugu can catch people off guard no? It seems in here that Kayneth and Kotomine obviously know who's the real master behind Saber.

[Xacual]

Originally Posted by jonli

Is it just me but wouldn't the mercury poison Kayneth and his wife too? That's an awful lot of mercury and to be in close contact with it...you know...kind of bad. I mean he is a magus and all but, they're human no?

There's something that I think I missed. I thought they have Irisviel hang out with Saber in public so people would think she was Saber's master, so Kiritsugu can catch people off guard no? It seems in here that Kayneth and Kotomine obviously know who's the real master behind Saber.

They don't, at least not yet. Kotomine and Kayneth think that Irisviel is the master and that Kiritsugu is like a hired gun to make sure she wins.

[Klashikari]

Originally Posted by Endless Twilight

Yeah, I also took Kiritsugu warning Kayneth as him wanting to lure him into a false sense of security by first firing expectedly ineffective regular bullets, and then, once his opponent believes himself to be absolutely protected against the onslaught, utilise the special gun for a basically guaranteed hit. So yeah, not a case of plot induced stupidity in order to prolong the fight at all.

Right, although you don't even need to think twice about that in fact: Kiritsugu had an obvious grin when pulling his contender, which spells a very obvious "just as planned".
It is hard to think it as a "bad move" when the said character was indeed hardly leaving things to random occurence, so each move has a certain motive.

[jonli]

Originally Posted by Xacual

They don't, at least not yet. Kotomine and Kayneth think that Irisviel is the master and that Kiritsugu is like a hired gun to make sure she wins.

This leads me to wonder why they used Irisviel and not say...Maya? Isn't it too dangerous to use Irisviel because she's his wife? Why put her in danger? Isnt she also valuable to the Einzburns?

[Xellos-_^]

Originally Posted by jonli

This leads me to wonder why they used Irisviel and not say...Maya? Isn't it too dangerous to use Irisviel because she's his wife? Why put her in danger? Isnt she also valuable to the Einzburns?

because Maya is 1. not a mage, 2. not a Einzburn. It would have been too obvious Maya is not sabers real master.

[DragoZERO]

Originally Posted by jonli

This leads me to wonder why they used Irisviel and not say...Maya? Isn't it too dangerous to use Irisviel because she's his wife? Why put her in danger? Isnt she also valuable to the Einzburns?

Well, putting her in danger is one of the things that causes Kiritsugu grief. And they can't use Maya because she isn't a magus. Much more believable to have Iri act as the master.

[fertygo]

Originally Posted by Xellos-_^

because Maya is 1. not a mage, 2. not a Einzburn. It would have been too obvious Maya is not sabers real master.

And 3. who the hell is Maya? No one gonna buy she's Einzbern master. At least Kiritsugu have certain reputation, n that's why he want to stay unknown.

[Nightengale]

Originally Posted by jonli

Is it just me but wouldn't the mercury poison Kayneth and his wife too? That's an awful lot of mercury and to be in close contact with it...you know...kind of bad. I mean he is a magus and all but, they're human no?

You've pretty much answered your own question there.

Name me a mercury that can expand into the size of a small boulder from a small vial.

Originally Posted by jonli

There's something that I think I missed. I thought they have Irisviel hang out with Saber in public so people would think she was Saber's master, so Kiritsugu can catch people off guard no? It seems in here that Kayneth and Kotomine obviously know who's the real master behind Saber.

Not every mage came with the same level of preparation that the Einzbern and Tohsaka had, where they've... you know, done significant background checks on their opponent. And then there's the matter of resources to achieve those as well.

Waver probably doesn't have the influence or monetary power to find anything significant on his opponents, for one. Kariya doesn't have the time, nor the strength to even bother about it.

Kayneth probably knows the Tohsakas and the Einzberns in general from his position as a lecturer, but never did any concrete or in-depth research into them beyond "Einzbern were alchemy-based magus', etc. Basically confidence in his own ability that he never felt the need to be Batman prepared for his opponents.

[Xellos-_^]

Originally Posted by Nightengale

You've pretty much answered your own question there.

Name me a mercury that can expand into the size of a small boulder from a small vial.



Not every mage came with the same level of preparation that the Einzbern and Tohsaka had, where they've... you know, done significant background checks on their opponent. And then there's the matter of resources to achieve those as well.

Waver probably doesn't have the influence or monetary power to find anything significant on his opponents, for one. Kariya doesn't have the time, nor the strength to even bother about it.

Kariya also doesn't care about any master other then Tohsaka.

[hyl]

Originally Posted by Xellos-_^

Kariya also doesn't care about any master other then Tohsaka.

Technically yes, but he does need to beat every other master to save Sakura. So he should care / pay attention about the other masters.

[giorno]

Originally Posted by jonli

This leads me to wonder why they used Irisviel and not say...Maya? Isn't it too dangerous to use Irisviel because she's his wife? Why put her in danger? Isnt she also valuable to the Einzburns?

Because Irisviel is recognizable as the einzbern master by every other master, because irisviel is a better magus than Maya(better support for saber with her healing magic), because Irisviel fits better with saber(as you've noticed, Maya is pretty much emotionless kinda like a female Kiritsugu) and lastly, because Kiritsugu needs Maya's help behind the scenes

the other reason will be revealed later on in the story(though if you're familiar with FSN you can probably make a good guess)

[Kaiba]

Originally Posted by hyl

Technically yes, but he does need to beat every other master to save Sakura. So he should care / pay attention about the other masters.

Kariya's perfectly happy to just sit it out, conserve his energy ( which he needs every bit of), and let all the other masters kill each other. This is obviously not including Tohsaka, and we do know that he was angry at Berserker for attacking Saber.

[GuidoHunter_Toki]

Originally Posted by jonli

Is it just me but wouldn't the mercury poison Kayneth and his wife too? That's an awful lot of mercury and to be in close contact with it...you know...kind of bad. I mean he is a magus and all but, they're human no?

Well you just got to suspend your belief, because obviously such a situation is unplausible and dangerous. Maybe there is some invisible element that is protecting them, I don't know.

When I think about it Kayneth's powers remind me of water bending from Avatar, just with mercury (a much more deadly material).