[MANGA] Bleach Chapter 353 Discussion

[Bassoonicmayhem]

This chapter just proved every character that I deem a favorite will end up dead. Sad but true.

[HayashiTakara]

Originally Posted by Vinak

Being a sadist does not make you evil in the slightest. Nor does being a hollow strictly make you an evil person. it's your actions that make you evil.

I wouldn't necessarily call Ulquiorra a sadist either, I can't recall a single instance where he derived pleasure at the expense of others. He may have caused considerable amounts of pain to others, but his motivation has never been to derive pleasure from it. He was a robot, he followed orders to the letter.

However, being unwilling or unable to question his orders and decide for himself if they are morally correct could arguably make him an evil person.

Since a lot of people replied to my comment, I just chose one.

Anyway, emo-bat was a sadist, he pocket pool'd while trying to get a rise out of our heroes. And gets pissed off when he doesn't get the reaction he wants. Over and over again, he keeps going down the line of things he can say and do to get the reaction he wants.

Most recently he waited for Inoue to arrive to finish off Ichigo just to bust a nut over her despair watching him die.

Emo-bat is 99% expressionless, but its not hard to tell what he wants.

And finally yes, sadism is a part of "evil" nature. All bad guys are sadist. Every single murderer, rapist, psychotic killers, etc, are sadist.

Emo-bat, isn't following orders from Aizen because he is forced to, He's following Aizen cause he's Aizen's biggest fangirl.

[Vinak]

@Sabaku Kyu
you declare the very thought of sadistic behavior to be evil yet you embrace the actions of Dexter. Dexter is the very embodiment of Sadism. He willfully kills people for his own pleasure.

I cannot Agree with you on this subject. Having sadistic thoughts and not acting on them for any reason is a good thing, regardless of the motivation. Using your own definition, thoughts cannot be considered evil. Sadism is wrong in itself but the thoughts themselves cannot physically harm a person unless you act upon them.

Originally Posted by HayashiTakara

Since a lot of people replied to my comment, I just chose one.

Anyway, emo-bat was a sadist, he pocket pool'd while trying to get a rise out of our heroes. And gets pissed off when he doesn't get the reaction he wants. Over and over again, he keeps going down the line of things he can say and do to get the reaction he wants.

Most recently he waited for Inoue to arrive to finish off Ichigo just to bust a nut over her despair watching him die.

Emo-bat is 99% expressionless, but its not hard to tell what he wants.

your taking a great deal of liberty in your interpretation of his apathy. And we cannot know whether or not he intentionally waited for Orhime's arrival to administer his final blow to Ichigo.

Originally Posted by HayashiTakara

And finally yes, sadism is a part of "evil" nature. All bad guys are sadist. Every single murderer, rapist, psychotic killers, etc, are sadist.

your generalizing here.

Originally Posted by HayashiTakara

Emo-bat, isn't following orders from Aizen because he is forced to, He's following Aizen cause he's Aizen's biggest fangirl.

[HayashiTakara]

Originally Posted by Vinak

@Sabaku Kyu
you declare the very thought of sadistic behavior to be evil yet you embrace the actions of Dexter. Dexter is the very embodiment of Sadism. He willfully kills people for his own pleasure.

I cannot Agree with you on this subject. Having sadistic thoughts and not acting on them for any reason is a good thing, regardless of the motivation. Using your own definition, thoughts cannot be considered evil. Sadism is wrong in itself but the thoughts themselves cannot physically harm a person unless you act upon them.

I think having thoughts (particularly on a constant basis) makes you psychotic and highly unstable. Eventually something will happen and those inhumane thoughts will flood out.

[Vinak]

psychotic, perhaps. but not evil...yet
those individuals with such thoughts should seek professional help if they feel there symptoms are uncontrollable or unbearable.

[Sabaku Kyu]

Originally Posted by Vinak

@Sabaku Kyu
you declare the very thought of sadistic behavior to be evil yet you embrace the actions of Dexter. Dexter is the very embodiment of Sadism. He willfully kills people for his own pleasure.

I cannot Agree with you on this subject. Having sadistic thoughts and not acting on them for any reason is a good thing, regardless of the motivation. Using your own definition, thoughts cannot be considered evil. Sadism is wrong in itself but the thoughts themselves cannot physically harm a person unless you act upon them.

I don't applaud Dexter's sadism, the only reason I consider him good is that his sadistic nature is complimented by the fact that he has empathy and compassion for certain people and is willing to restrain and focus his sadistic impulses for their sake. I consider someone who has sadistic impulses, but lacks those other mentioned qualities to be evil, regardless of whether or not they act on their impulses.

If I've somehow offended you, then I apologize but that's simply the way I feel about the subject. But I'll respect your opinion and let it drop. It's wandering off topic anyways


Anyways, regarding Ulq I've already grown tired of talking about him anyways.

He's a character I think Kubo put a lot of effort into making it look like he was "deep" but he didn't really flesh out his motivations at all. His death was sad and all, but it's not worth much trying to analyze his psyche now that he's dead.

Bring on the vizards already...

[Alchemist007]

Originally Posted by Vinak

psychotic, perhaps. but not evil...yet
those individuals with such thoughts should seek professional help if they feel there symptoms are uncontrollable or unbearable.

I'd classify holding a girl against her will and stabbing her savior multiple times evil. But that's just me

[HayashiTakara]

Originally Posted by Sabaku Kyu

I don't applaud Dexter's sadism, the only reason I consider him good is that his sadistic nature is complimented by the fact that he has empathy and compassion for certain people and is willing to restrain and focus his sadistic impulses for their sake. I consider someone who has sadistic impulses, but lacks those other mentioned qualities to be evil, regardless of whether or not they act on their impulses.

If I've somehow offended you, then I apologize but that's simply the way I feel about the subject. But I'll respect your opinion and let it drop. It's wandering off topic anyways


Anyways, regarding Ulq I've already grown tired of talking about him anyways.

He's a character I think Kubo put a lot of effort into making it look like he was "deep" but he didn't really flesh out his motivations at all. His death was sad and all, but it's not worth much trying to analyze his psyche now that he's dead.

Bring on the vizards already...

I concur, Emo-bat is dead (well dead more since you gotta be dead to be a hollow in the first place XP)

Bring on the living (sort of) !

[Vinak]

lol yes, Bring on the vizards indeed. I had intended to drop the subject as well

And no, you hadn't offended me in anyway. If I came across that way then I apologize.

Now I wonder what kind of repercussions we are going to have after killing off so many menos turned Arrancar. do they split off into individual spirits again and go to SS? do they just turn into spirit particles? or what?

[kiroisenko]

I liked the ending and it's only going to get more interesting as the story develops.
Next Chapter : Orihime using her reject ability to restore Ulquiora to his normal form. jkjkjk, but still though it might happen you never know.
lol that part was also funny to me, Ulquiorra gives ichigo his sword back? Jesus this is the guy who is meant to be cold as ice, normally he would just Cut ichigo to pieces instead he gives him his sword back.BTW, how come Ulquiorra died like a vampire in the sun? HM Ha sno sun in there... Aizen made it like it was a sky in the dome, but outside the dome it's total night time. Oh man, this was such a crappy chapter. I still vote for Inoue rejecting Ulquiora's death so Kurosaki can fight him on fair term. Just like Grimmjaw.
i wondering about that i just remeber it, what did he mean with the 'if you don't kill me now, it will never be over' part? That made me think he might come back.. sigh
chect out page 18

[DarkHollowIchigo]

I still wonder about Ichigo, he told that he was not in controle of this form. Was his hollow form in controle? if this is true, than it is definitly not the hollow side we saw when Ichigo tried to obtain the masks powers. That Holow side was extrovert , shouting/talking to ichigo and making weird noices when attacking.

This hollow form was introvert though, he was mumbling only. Does Ichigo have to take over this Hollow side aswell to obtain these powers?

[HayashiTakara]

Originally Posted by DarkHollowIchigo

I still wonder about Ichigo, he told that he was not in controle of this form. Was his hollow form in controle? if this is true, than it is definitly not the hollow side we saw when Ichigo tried to obtain the masks powers. That Holow side was extrovert , shouting/talking to ichigo and making weird noices when attacking.

This hollow form was introvert though, he was mumbling only. Does Ichigo have to take over this Hollow side aswell to obtain these powers?

From what I gather he ran on pure instincts.

[Cub-Sama]

Originally Posted by Sabaku Kyu

And even then, motive is a question. Someone who doesn't fulfill their sadistic pleasures only because they have a greater fear of being caught and punished is still evil.

In that case arent most humans by extension evil, we have people that we enjoy to see hurt like our enemies the fact we think about doing it but we dont because of a greater fear (law, religion etc...) does that make us evil?

Is enjoying seeing bad people suffer evil?

I will admit in a way I am a sadist, I find it funny seeing some things suffer, I'm not evil I just find it funny, I can feel their pain but doesn't make it any less fun to watch. Like if you see someone get slapped and they are really hurt would that stop you from laughing?

If someone got on your nerves or even just a friend and you slapped them or made them fall flat on their face or tackled them hard so it hurt, if you enjoyed that are you evil? Also most guys base their friendship of being able to hurt and insult each other, most of my friends I hit and insult, I don't go too far to really hurt them but seeing them hurt still makes me laugh until it is taken to certain levels.

They still have free will. That's exemplified by Nel herself and her followers. Nel chose not to fight Noitora and she chose to befriend Ichigo though he's a shinigami. Nel may be a child now, but she's still an arrancar and she's never shown any instincts that compelled her to act in an animalistic or evil way. If they do have them, they can obviously choose to restain them unlike full hollows who cannot act any other way.

However that is because of the part of her humanity they regained, some like Nnoitora regained their stubborness, madness and will to fight whilst others like Nel regained her love and unwillingness to fight. A hollow when they become a arrancar the main thing is they regain part of their humanity and act on that part they regain. Ulquiorra regained his logical behaviour but did not regain compassion or empathy as a result he did not understand their behaviour.

Like the way Grimmjow "bowed down" before Ulqiuorria? And Loli bowed down before Yammi? I'd say that most arrancar definitely respect strength, but they don't blindly obey anyone who's stronger than themselves. Like humans, I'm sure some can be coerced into following someone out of fear, but I think all arrancar follow Aizen for a reason (gratitude, respect, fear) not instinctive obedience.

Grimmjow didn't bow down before Ulquiorra because of a dominant personality trait that is his superiority complex, he believes he is superior to Ulquiorra just like Nnoitora, but he still respects Ulquiorra's strength and in fact feared Ulquiorra catching on to what he was doing with Ichigo. Even if they don't blindly follow they respect strength it is like with animals in the wild if you can intimidate them they will back down and through intimidation you can force them into submission like Aizen using his reiatsu to school Grimmy.

Similarly, they don't have to act in a violent or evil way. Those who do do it because that's how they choose to act.

The only people who acted in a violent or evil way was Grimm, Nnoitora, Pinky, Tentacle freak and Giant, Grimmy's surbodinates weren't particularly evil neither in fact Grimmy was just aggressive to prove his strength he was Chaotic Good.

Chapter 12 Page 10

A zanpakuto can only cleanse the sins of the hollow after it has become a hollow if it has commited terrible sins during life it is doomed to hell

And I am done with my arguement, shouldn't there be a thread asking if hollows are truly evil? I'm surprised there isn't

[DarkHollowIchigo]

Originally Posted by HayashiTakara

From what I gather he ran on pure instincts.

Hmmm yes ..i didnt even thought about that.

[HayashiTakara]

Originally Posted by Cub-Sama

In that case arent most humans by extension evil, we have people that we enjoy to see hurt like our enemies the fact we think about doing it but we dont because of a greater fear (law, religion etc...) does that make us evil?

Is enjoying seeing bad people suffer evil?

I will admit in a way I am a sadist, I find it funny seeing some things suffer, I'm not evil I just find it funny, I can feel their pain but doesn't make it any less fun to watch. Like if you see someone get slapped and they are really hurt would that stop you from laughing?

If someone got on your nerves or even just a friend and you slapped them or made them fall flat on their face or tackled them hard so it hurt, if you enjoyed that are you evil? Also most guys base their friendship of being able to hurt and insult each other, most of my friends I hit and insult, I don't go too far to really hurt them but seeing them hurt still makes me laugh until it is taken to certain levels.



However that is because of the part of her humanity they regained, some like Nnoitora regained their stubborness, madness and will to fight whilst others like Nel regained her love and unwillingness to fight. A hollow when they become a arrancar the main thing is they regain part of their humanity and act on that part they regain. Ulquiorra regained his logical behaviour but did not regain compassion or empathy as a result he did not understand their behaviour.



Grimmjow didn't bow down before Ulquiorra because of a dominant personality trait that is his superiority complex, he believes he is superior to Ulquiorra just like Nnoitora, but he still respects Ulquiorra's strength and in fact feared Ulquiorra catching on to what he was doing with Ichigo. Even if they don't blindly follow they respect strength it is like with animals in the wild if you can intimidate them they will back down and through intimidation you can force them into submission like Aizen using his reiatsu to school Grimmy.



The only people who acted in a violent or evil way was Grimm, Nnoitora, Pinky, Tentacle freak and Giant, Grimmy's surbodinates weren't particularly evil neither in fact Grimmy was just aggressive to prove his strength he was Chaotic Good.

Chapter 12 Page 10

A zanpakuto can only cleanse the sins of the hollow after it has become a hollow if it has commited terrible sins during life it is doomed to hell

And I am done with my arguement, shouldn't there be a thread asking if hollows are truly evil? I'm surprised there isn't

Now we're just getting into philosophy, If you go by theories of Yin and Yang, humans are made of a harmony of good and evil, a balance of energies.

Humans are a twisted pile of crap, but its restraint and reason that separates us. If you practice your sadistic tendencies or have constant thought of hurting people, you should be committed to an asylum.

[Cub-Sama]

Originally Posted by HayashiTakara

Humans are a twisted pile of crap, but its restraint and reason that separates us. If you practice your sadistic tendencies or have constant thought of hurting people, you should be committed to an asylum.

If it is just anyone that you see you want to hurt then you should be committed into an asylum if it is someone that has wronged you then it isn't as bad because you want to hurt them because of something they have done. There is a very fine line between Revenge and Punishment as well as there is a fine line between what is and is not sadistic behaviour. It depends on the viewpoint of the person like I saw recently a video of how meat is made that was made to advertise vegeterianism, I saw a pigs throat being slit and the pig struggling before dropping to the ground shaking like it was having a seizure and I am not afraid to admit I laughed, doesn't mean I find what happened right. I just laughed cos I thought it was funny some call it a sick sense of humor but for me if it was a human it is not funny.

A lot of people find things done to one thing isn't bad when done to another such as people find it wrong for humans to eat meat but not for an animal like a lion to eat meat.

It all depends on perspective in the end.

[hollowification]

do you think next chapter it will asked how he turn into that hollow because we know hollowication he went under while training with the vizard does not look like the form he took in huco mundo maybe.

Maybe because he became vizard and maybe his hollow power grew stronger so he turn into that strongest hollow

[Alchemist007]

I don't think we'll find out for a long time.

[ShinAkuma135]

Originally Posted by Alchemist007

I don't think we'll find out for a long time.

i agree. like when they showed a glimpse of Hell and we know less about it than we know about isshin or king's realm/king's key. Likely those will be separate arcs with the hollow transformation being explained in a couple of episodes.

[Zu Ra]

* [MANGA] Bleach Chapter 354 Discussion

Ne Chapter 354 thread up : )