2012-08-01, 16:14 | Link #29902 |
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Maybe Eva hated Natsuhi more than we can guess and wanted to vent her hate on her and that's why she used an excuse to beat her up.
Though I tend to think at whatever happened after the suspension of the game as a fantasy when it's not outright meta. As for Hideyoshi he likely knew Natsuhi was there. In Ep 8 chap 6 of the manga we see Eva looking around then staring at the wardrobe with an 'I think you might be there' expression. |
2012-08-01, 20:20 | Link #29904 |
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Probably... unless Yasu wanted to keep all the possibility open. In that case she made sure all the siblings would be her accomplices then decided on which one to use and then... killed off the spare ones...
Last edited by jjblue1; 2012-10-16 at 16:43. |
2012-08-01, 21:35 | Link #29905 | ||
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Just how Rudolph suspected his Death in EP 1 and was sure to die in EP 3. I was always sure ever since EP 1 where Natsuhi was the last "Oldie" to survive past the 9th Twlight that her role is special in some way. Quote:
Also kinda hard to believe that the 7 Stakes which stand for the 7 Sins thus are meant in a set of 7 are used in a set of 5 which contradicts the very meaning of the 7 Stakes/Sins. Last edited by Kiltias; 2012-08-01 at 21:46. |
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2012-08-02, 01:28 | Link #29906 | ||||
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There's ALSO the fact that only 5 stakes are used in EP4, as well. George and Jessica (second Twilight) aren't described as having a stake on/near them, whereas everyone in Kyries group definitely does. |
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2012-08-02, 10:18 | Link #29907 | |||
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Recently the impression I got from the shooting Battler scene is that Eva took on herself the blame because she had been an accomplice of Beato... but thought Beato was Battler so she shoot him. It's not such a wrong assumption. The survivors at the moment are her, Jessica, Battler and Nanjo (or so she believes as Nanjo has just been killed). Nanjo has apparently nothing to gain from murdering them all. Battler and Jessica would have the inheritance. However it's easier to think at Battler as the murder because: - his parents could be accomplices that Hideyoshi killed, though he ended up being killed as well - it could be Battler isn't who he said to be but Beato 2's kid who paid Rudolf and Kyrie so as to be presented as Battler. - if Jessica is the culprit she should have killed her parents whom she seemed to love... her own way - Even if she saw her rarely, Eva saw Jessica more often than she saw Battler and she's likely more prone to believe that Jessica is innocent than Battler. Quote:
Even the cute moment between Natsuhi and Beato is more moving... Beato really seems a child leaning on her mother and my only complain is that Natsuhi doesn't hug her back... though Natsuhi isn't hugging prone, not even with Jessica who's her legittimate daughter. There's to say the visual novel aimed to let the reader play while in the manga this isn't even attempted but, plot wise, so far things are handled in a much smoother and interesting manner. Quote:
We'll never know. I've been wondering if in Ep 4 also there was an extra killer/someone who took control of the game but we know so little of Ep 4 real happening that it's impossible to say. The only 'evidence' would be how Bern used EP 4 as a background for her solution which is 'truth of a sort' but really, it seems to little to prove something. |
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2012-08-02, 18:27 | Link #29908 |
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In rereading episode 1, I am once again struck by how odd it is that everyone keeps referring to the 6 of the first twilight as being covered in "disgusting makeup" or something like that. It makes sense for Eva to say, as an accomplice she was probably shocked by how realistic and disgusting it all looked (maybe why she seemed to genuinely try and keep the children from looking) and also allowed her to drop a hint that she thought it was fake. However, Battler uses the same term. It never sat well with me when I read it the first time, is it a clue do you think, or actually some Japanese phrase we just don't say?
Also interesting how Natsuhi only gets the gun after going off with the servants for what seems like too long according to Battler, followed by Eva saying she never could find it.... |
2012-08-02, 20:52 | Link #29910 | |||
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2012-08-03, 01:33 | Link #29911 |
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I figured the point Tohya was trying to make with EP3 was that there were plenty of other people on the island who were capable of murder; Yasu was just the only one who happened to have the reason and opportunity. If Eva had been able to get the gold or secure the headship for George or something by killing her siblings, she'd probably have gone for it. Just like in the EP7 tea party, she's a murderer who didn't get the chance.
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2012-08-03, 01:44 | Link #29912 |
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Maybe Ep 3 was just Tohya starting out with a popular theory since by this point he may not have truly understood the truth. Like maybe he had inklings of Shannon being the culprit but wanted to see if Eva was the culprit. So maybe he just wanted to have some fun or something but then he solved the truth and wrote the rest to reflect that with Shannon culprit
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2012-08-03, 08:36 | Link #29913 | |
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Then again I see it as out of character for Yasu also.
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2012-08-03, 19:08 | Link #29914 | |||
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In short, at the beginning of Umineko he might have planned to use all the seven stakes ALWAYS. By the time Ep 3 came about using all the seven stakes would generate a logic error with something he wanted to use in a future chapter so he didn't do it. As he didn't do it in Ep 3 he broke the self imposed 'rule'/plan/idea/whatever that tied him and that said he had to use all of them so he didn't bother about it anymore. In the end he even discharged the idea that forced him to gave up on using all the seven stakes in Ep 3. Sounds complex maybe but when you're writing a story this can happen, especially if you change the plot along the way. Quote:
I won't say something happened, just that I can't prove something didn't happen. The truth is in a cat box and we're given no hints to look at it. Even Will, when talking about Ep 4, merely insisted it was all <i>Illusions to illusions. ......Tales woven by the gold truth return to illusions.</i> Quote:
I think it's one of the weak points of Umineko. Though maybe that's just me. |
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2012-08-03, 20:39 | Link #29915 | |
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2012-08-03, 21:19 | Link #29916 | ||
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He changed his mind, that's all. For whatever reason is anyone's guess, but he obviously decided it was okay for all the stakes to not be used. After all, you have a 50/50 rate for "all stakes" vs. "some stakes" in EP1-4. And they're barely even a thing in Chiru. Quote:
We know that Shannon had access to a gun up until the moment she died. George, Kumasawa, and Godha were killed on the very first night. Jessica and Kyrie make some phone calls very heavily implied to be coerced. The specifics are a blank space, yes, but c'mon - the corpses in the dining room? Maria being poisoned? Shannon clearly having the time and space necessary to change clothes, get drunk, and troll Battler after (at least one or two) murders had DEFINITELY occured? I'm not saying she always maintained a perfect control - hell, we can possibly say a group tried to oppose her, or run away, or something, but there really doesn't seem to be much room for other people to be reasonably accused of wrong-doings, there. Almost no actual tricks were used, aside from "Well it's not like Battler will know the difference when he gets here." [/QUOTE] |
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2012-08-03, 22:01 | Link #29917 | ||
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More likely Jessica thought she had been tricked into thinking everyone was dead and was told to make that phonecall to prank Battler as well. Then she was killed. Same for Kyrie. This episode goes definitely for an overkill as we know for the epitaph ritual so many murders weren't necessary and the others could be finished off by the bomb. |
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2012-08-04, 02:19 | Link #29919 |
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When it comes to Ep 4 I think that everything was a game constructed by Shannon and she said everything would be fine. On her way to the mansion she met and killed George. She then went into the mansion and there threatened and killed Jessica. She does the same to Kyrie. She sets up a simple trick for Maria to drink something or just I don't know that Shannon cleaned up on her time back up to the balcony after faking her death and making sure that Gohda and Kumasawa are doing the same. She then went to the balcony and met Battler. Now she didn't exactly need to change clothes. It was the middle of a downpour, she had an umbrella, and was a three stories up. So she could've just changed her voice.
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2012-08-04, 08:43 | Link #29920 |
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What I dislike of Ep 4 is that the solution is 'Everybody lied' but said solution in itself doesn't really tell me how things went apart from 'they went differently from the fantasy scene' and, if I think there was a sole culprit I've to think to a Shannon-Terminator going around tricking people into saying things and then shooting them down without even giving Battler much time to solve the epitaph or have a chance of surviving because, let's face it, even if Battler were to solve the epitaph, who would tell him about the bomb and the way out?
And even if he were to escape who would believe his story? Oh, you know the maid had a crush on me so she exterminated the family but let me a way out. No, this one seems a game in which pieceYasu really wanted merely to commit double suicide with Battler, not to play with him. Though there's to say that since this is a story and not what she did... well, it's no big deal for her... for PieceYasu's characterization maybe, but not for PrimeYasu... assuming she's Ikuko... if she's not... Ikuko and Tohya doesn't even have to worry about this stuff... |
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