The Melancholy of Haruhi Suzumiya - Episode 24 Discussion / Poll [2009 added ep. 14]

[OkamiNoKaze]

That's an insult to haruhi comparing her to Uwe Boll, she directs circles around him, It was probably one of his movies that inspired her.

[Mecha_Trueno]

Originally Posted by GMT

They give one clue for the eagle-eyed that this scene takes place before the rest of Sighs, and before BLR, even.

Spoiler for Hint, pay attention to the clubroom shot while Kyon and Haruhi are talking:

No stolen bamboo branch with tanzaku on it.

Also the fact that Kyon and Haruhi are wearing the exact same clothes as they did at the end of Melanchol VI (if you assume that anime characters never wear the same outfit twice).
If you're really bothered to, go watch the last scene Melancholy VI again and compare it with the end of this episode, you'll notice its the exact same people and cars that go pass.


On a sidenote, the part where Nagato is vampire biting Mikuru-chan, it makes me wonder if Kyoani just read that on a few forums and thought "hey that's a good-ass idea, lets use it"

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

I don't even buy for a second the idea that there was some sort of artistic merit behind this like what you call "anti-fanservice", mostly because it just makes no sense. So many people act like Kyoani is this great artistic visionary studio with the attitude of Andy Warhol that will change the face of anime for the better, but I think it comes down to them just liking to make money and appeal to moe fans. Moe being what they use to sell their shows and associated merchandise. I've said before that I think they have little to no ambition beyond the basic profit motive, and until I see something that leads me to think otherwise I'm going to have to stick to that position.

The reason it "makes no sense" to you is because you still believe KyoAni is about "moe and make money", when Endless Eight isn't like that. So since EE isn't about moe or making money, doesn't that make your views incorrect?

[Jenni]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

It actually creeps me out a bit just how completely unwilling many people are to even consider the possibility that KyoAni simply made a mistake... as though the concept itself is somehow unfathomable. I've been a part of a lot of fandoms, and this is the only one where I've seen people refuse to even consider that the entertainment provider can make a mistake.

I've seen diehard Trekkies, hardcore Star Wars fans, huge Spiderman fans, major RPG fans, lifelong pro wrestling fans, etc... , etc... all be open to less-than-flattering views of the entertainment provider. In fact, many of them will put forward those views themselves.

What makes anime in general, and KyoAni in particular, so different? That's what I'm still trying to figure out.

While I agree with the general sentiment, I've seen diehard Star Wars and Star Trek apologists who attempt to offer defenses of the weakest aspect of their franchises (things like Jar-Jar and Enterprise). The do-no-wrong attitude is not exclusive to Kyoani fans, but it certainly seems to be a bit more prevalent among them.

[Child_of_Sierra]

What I'd like to hear you and some others say is "Yes, KyoAni is not infallible".

Seriously.

It actually creeps me out a bit just how completely unwilling many people are to even consider the possibility that KyoAni simply made a mistake... as though the concept itself is somehow unfathomable. I've been a part of a lot of fandoms, and this is the only one where I've seen people refuse to even consider that the entertainment provider can make a mistake.

I've seen diehard Trekkies, hardcore Star Wars fans, huge Spiderman fans, major RPG fans, lifelong pro wrestling fans, etc... , etc... all be open to less-than-flattering views of the entertainment provider. In fact, many of them will put forward those views themselves.

What makes anime in general, and KyoAni in particular, so different? That's what I'm still trying to figure out.

The problem with your plea is that it centers on the assumption that E8 is a "mistake" when considered from all points of view.

Given how large the fanbase for the show it is entirely possible that a portion (albiet small) of the audience would not have a problem with this gimmick and see it in a positive light. Why would they blame a studio for a slight they never saw?

Going further, just because they happen to be fans of Haruhi (that happen to made by KyoAni) doesn't mean that all fans of Haruhi view the creators as infallible. There are other posts in this subforum that decry E8 and they had had no reservation to post their discontent. What you have is a mixed fanbase with as many interpretations and tolerances that one would expect from those other fandoms you cited.

[Apostle_Kyon]

Originally Posted by 4as

Koizumi's rambling about other organizationas and Tsuruya's lurking in the shadow got me thinking that she is maybe a part of one.


IMO, there is nothing to atone for.
Endless Eight is like Spaghetti westerns back in the day - they were considered to be retarded but now they are classics of Cinematography.

Also

I remember someone saying people will hate Haruhi after Sighs but that arc made me fell for her all over again :S

Tsuruya..

Spoiler:

http://haruhi.wikia.com/wiki/Tsuruya

[Mecha_Trueno]

Originally Posted by Heatth

And now I just imagined Mori dressed as ninja entering in the clubroom by the window and working in the computer without waking Kyon up (he was sleeping over the keyboard).

Speaking of Mori-san in different outfits, I'm actually rather excited about seeing vol.7 animated.
Because...

Spoiler:

we get to see her dressed as an OL (office lady).

[EGFontanilla]

So this was the last episode for this season? What about the disappearance? Hmm ...

Anyways, does anyone wanna make an updated chronological order now that the season is over? I feel like watching the series again, it'll at least keep me alive before September ends, god I hate school.

[SamKajam]

Wow... I gotta say that is episode was the best one in the series for me. For one, the cat was awesome , and more importantly, it allowed us to peek into the psyche of the 3 people who are using kyon to control haruhi, which really makes this anime stand out. Finally, the scene with yuki was trippy as hell!

Spoiler for character psyches:

Originally, I assumed that itsuki was a reliable guy, including being correct in his explanations. I also assumed that mikuru was only coincidentally kyon's dream girl. But after this episode, it suddenly became clear that itsuki, mikuru, and yuki are all just looking out for themselves and their own goals. And while they befriend kyon, in reality, all three of them are mostly just using him using their own methods.

- Itsuki is "friendly", helpful, and provides explanations to kyon, thus trying to earn his trust. I also have a theory that the agency specifically sent in a homosexual who can try "charming" kyon (on the off chance that kyon's got the gay in him). Even if you won't believe that isuki's gay, then you have to at least admit that sometimes when he speaks to kyon, he's seems to be trying to, uh... seduce him.

- Mikuru also seems like she was specifically chosen to attract kyon. And though she may seem to genuinely like kyon, it could really just all be an act. For example, when kyon's lust for mikuru started to shift towards feelings for haruhi, mikuru's older self came back in time to make sure that kyon liked mikuru more (hoping that kyon would do as mikuru says rather than haruhi, at some point in the future).

- Nagato over the series has come off as "an alien who is only here to observe, and thus cares not for humanity, but somehow has developed sense of caring for kyon". But now it seems as though, no, she really doesn't give a cr** about kyon. If you observe her actions, you'll realize that she is simply doing whatever is needed to obtain her goals (whatever they might be). The "humanity" that we see in her is simply based on kyon's observations. It seems to me that yuki has won kyon's trust without even trying or even realizing it.

Offf course, these are all just theories and I'm most likely wrong, but I thought they were interesting, so I'm posting them.

Anyway, crackpot theory time!

Spoiler for just in case:

- mikuru's "friend" (LOL-FAN TAN... or something like that) is actually mikuru's co-worker. Thus explaining why she's so helpful at times (lending house). As well as why she was willing to drug (get drunk) mikuru, and throw her into a lake, when mikuru was clearly in distress. She also seems to be listening (and smiling?) in the background while mikuru was talking to kyon in this episode.

I was also rewatching episode 00 again and noticed some things.

Spoiler for episode 00:

- haruhi had mikuru run down the same street 3 times LOL most likely without a break in between.

- when mikuru shoots at yuki from her guns, bb's actually come out, but yuki just blocks them with her wand.

- an old man walks reaaallly slowly in the background during one of the ads hahahah.

- itsuki acts in this movie just like how an actor would in a play, which is something he had probably been practicing for (his class play).

- LOL-FAN TAN can't control her laughter at mikuru, not as a friend thinking how ridiculous this footage is, but as a co-working thinking how ridiculous this entire movie making situation is for mikuru (assuming my theory of her being a co-worker is true, that is).

Finally, my favorite theory that I noticed: In haruhi's movie, itsuki actually represents kyon, yuki represents haruhi, and mikuru plays... well, mikuru.

when itsuki in the movie is about to kiss mikuru, yuki suddenly pops in and says:

"You should not choose her.
Your power will be validated after becoming one with mine.
All I can say now is that you have two choices before you.
You can join me in advancing this universe towards its true form or join with her and pluck out the possibilities of the future."

After being confronted to expalin what she means, yuki replies:

"The time for that will come in the near future.
However, it is certain that the time is not now.
We have a custom of considering a lack of information a critical flaw.
The potential stages will be unable to proceed in a clear fashion."

After mikuru proclaims that itsuki will choose her, yuki replies:

"Unfortunately, I have no intention of respecting his personal wishes.
I shall take his power."

If my theory that yuki plays haruhi is correct, then this shows that haruhi subconsciously knows what her role in this world is, as well as what her ultimate goal is. It also seems to show that kyon has some sort of power, and that haruhi subconsciously knows about it and wants it.

Lol, seems like everyone is using kyon in this series, eh?

Anyway, the movie also digs not so deep into her conscious feelings for kyon, and jealousy towards mikuru. This can be seen when the movie suddenly changes genres into a love drama between the three, coinciding with when she started becoming jealous while filming.

Gahh lots of text here, sorry bout that. But these are observations that I've made. I've left out other theories which are not mine, as to not recycle the same old stuff. That said, if these observations have all ready been made, then my bad.

[Airman8]

Originally Posted by Ithekro

How does one atone for Endless Eight? Make the worst novel epic. Done and done.

so well said. But you know, it's not just Sighs that they made epic. If you think of the way they developed this whole story up until now, it's quite amazing. They've gone as far as volume 6 and presented it all in a way that creates a narrative of its own.

Triple R said to me previously that K and K are expert trolls, and politicians. Well, I do agree with that. But seeing this episode unfold the way it did, I must add that underneath all this they are great story tellers.

Whoever is doing this is really thinking about the narrative. They've managed to combine the slice-of-life and the sci-fi intrigue so well. Ending with the prologue is another splash of creativity that makes me think whatever budgeting constraints and corporate considerations need to be made, they're taking the meaning of this series to heart. Maybe I'm being too mushy here, but considering we're in an economic crisis I think they've done a hell of a job recreating this series after three years. I really do think there's a level of care going into this that surpasses many other stories.

On that note, the future is uncertain. They've done so well weaving this narrative that they could stop it here and leave the fans with so many unanswered questions. Or, they could keep going, having set up intrigues and inter-character conflicts left unexplored for now.

I don't know how it will go, but if this is where it ends I must encourage everyone to read the novels. The story really delivers. I spent the summer reading it (on the beach I might add!) and enjoyed it all.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

The reason it "makes no sense" to you is because you still believe KyoAni is about "moe and make money", when Endless Eight isn't like that. So since EE isn't about moe or making money, doesn't that make your views incorrect?

...EE isn't about moe? Every episode features Haruhi, Mikuru, and Yuki in bathing suits, and in colorful cute yukatas.

The moe aspect is about the only aspect that I actually liked in each and every EE iteration.

Originally Posted by Jenni

While I agree with the general sentiment, I've seen diehard Star Wars and Star Trek apologists who attempt to offer defenses of the weakest aspect of their franchises (things like Jar-Jar and Enterprise). The do-no-wrong attitude is not exclusive to Kyoani fans, but it certainly seems to be a bit more prevalent among them.

Ok, in fairness, what you're writing here may be closer to the truth.

Originally Posted by Child_of_Sierra

The problem with your plea is that it centers on the assumption that E8 is a "mistake" when considered from all points of view.

I'm not looking for people to call the eight-episode handling of E8, in particular, a mistake.

I'm just looking for people to admit that KyoAni is not infallible. That's it. Nothing else. I'm not going read a criticism of E8 into that. You can believe that E8 was not a mistake, but that KoyAni is fallible.

... Frankly, if somebody can't admit that KyoAni is fallible, then that obviously throws his or her entire defense of KyoAni on any matter into question. Because such a lack of an admittance shows that he or she will try to rationalize anything that KyoAni does.

[ac195]

Originally Posted by Akka

Which part of "when you only saw the animes - and when you wish to keep it that way" escaped you ?

Just giving my opinion on the matter. I have no idea why you'd want to deprive yourself of a decent light read. It really is sad that people like you ignore the source materials which opens up a new appreciation for the series and its characters.

It's so sad that you just mention the words "read" or "book" and people run for the hills...

[EGFontanilla]

So, will there even be a season 2?

It'd be really funny if the name "The Disappearance of Haruhi Suzumiya" had nothing to do with the actual novel, and that it just implies the end of the anime series. x)

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

...EE isn't about moe? Every episode features Haruhi, Mikuru, and Yuki in bathing suits, and in colorful cute yukatas.

The moe aspect is about the only aspect that I actually liked in each and every EE iteration.

Yukatas and Swimsuits are NOT moe. They are fanservice. Cowering Mikuru? Yes, that's moe. Moe is when you obtained a mysterious nurture instict about a character. Being cute or sexy have nothing to do with it. If swimsuits are moe, then nearly EVERYTHING is moe these days.

I'm not looking for people to call the eight-episode handling of E8, in particular, a mistake.

I'm just looking for people to admit that KyoAni is not infallible. That's it. Nothing else. I'm not going read a criticism of E8 into that. You can believe that E8 was not a mistake, but that KoyAni is fallible.

I never said KyoAni is infallible. EVER. But since you are claiming I am a "fanboy" who can't see anything wrong, and since I was only talking about Endless Eight, what ELSE could you be criticizing?

If I believe KyoAni is infallible, I would have claimed everyone should love Endless Eight. I am not. I am saying just because Endless Eight is not designed to please fans, doesn't make it a failure. It did what it was designed to do, to the detriment of the DVD sales. The fact that those who oppose Episode Eight simultaneously claimed EE was created to improve DVD sales, yet also claim the DVD sales would drop, showed how paradoxical the comments are.

A perfect KyoAni would have made an Endless Eight everyone would be happy with. But they are only human, so they made EE the way THEY are happy with, and no one else.

[Airman8]

I still think they'll keep going, but that's because I want to think that way. I like this series. But from a business point of view, why not. They've put effort into this. People love it. It's a good call!

[Kogetsu Shirogane]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

I'm not looking for people to call the eight-episode handling of E8, in particular, a mistake.

Oh?

Originally Posted by Triple_R

It actually creeps me out a bit just how completely unwilling many people are to even consider the possibility that KyoAni simply made a mistake

Seems you've contradicted yourself.

[Triple_R]

SamKajam -

Spoiler for character psyches:

I think that you're probably right about one or more of Itsuki, Mikuru, and Yuki, but I doubt that you're right about all three. There's a certain genuineness to Yuki's acts that resonate with me. She did actually save Kyon's life at least twice, in the anime, now. That has to count for something meaningful, imo.

However, I agree that both Itsuki and Mikuru look a bit shadier in this episode to me than they usually do; Mikuru especially.

I don't buy Haruhi as the sort of person who would use her powers to force somebody to love her. If so, one would expect her powers to have played out in such a fashion already.

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

Yukatas and Swimsuits are NOT moe. They are fanservice.

I really could dispute that, as the use of the term 'moe' isn't quite as strict as I think that you hold it to be. I've frequently seen other anime fans describe moe as "more kawaii than kawaii" (i.e. more cute than cute; cuteness to the extreme).

However... I'm not going to dispute it, because calling it fanservice is even more interesting than calling it moe. If it's fanservice, then that means that a significant part of each and every E8 iteration is fanservice. Kind of flies right in the face of the "E8 is anti-fanservice" idea, don't you think?

One theory that I continue to have concerning E8 is that KyoAni simply likes doing cutsey slice-of-life stuff, and E8 is as cutsey slice-of-life as Haruhi ever gets, so...

I never said KyoAni is infallible. EVER. But since you are claiming I am a "fanboy" who can't see anything wrong, and since I was only talking about Endless Eight, what ELSE could you be criticizing?

If I believe KyoAni is infallible, I would have claimed everyone should love Endless Eight. I am not. I am saying just because Endless Eight is not designed to please fans, doesn't make it a failure.

Why are you presenting this theory - and that's all it is, a theory - as though it was indisputable fact?

Anyway... KyoAni is in the entertainment business. Them deliberately trying to bore their fans, as you appear to argue, is an automatic failure.

It did what it was designed to do, to the detriment of the DVD sales.

You say this before we even know what the DVD sales will be like.

Still, thanks for basically saying that KyoAni is fallible. I don't think that you're a "fanboy", Vallen... which is precisely why I was befuddled by your seeming refusal to even consider that they may have made a mistake here.

The fact that those who oppose Episode Eight simultaneously claimed EE was created to improve DVD sales, yet also claim the DVD sales would drop, showed how paradoxical the comments are.

... I don't recall seeing anybody who opposes E8 saying that it was created to improve DVD sales. The only person I've seen even come close to making such an argument is Relentlessflame, and he's been a pretty strong E8 defender, imo.

Kaioshin has stated that E8 won't hurt DVD sales, but I don't think that he's ever said that they'll actually improve DVD sales. I'm open to be corrected by him on the matter, though.

Originally Posted by Kogetsu Shirogane

Oh?



Seems you've contradicted yourself.

No, I never. You can consider that E8 made a mistake with out arriving at that conclusion. It's two different things, Kogetsu. Some people aren't even considering the possibility that E8 may have been a mistake.

[Kogetsu Shirogane]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

No, I never. You can consider that E8 made a mistake with out arriving at that conclusion. It's two different things, Kogetsu. Some people aren't even considering the possibility that E8 may have been a mistake.

You've caused a bit of a problem with this response.

(Forgive my altering your quote, but I believe it is required for a demonstration.)

You can consider that E8 wasn't a mistake with out arriving at that conclusion. It's two different things. Some people aren't even considering the possibility that E8 may not have been a mistake.

Do you see the problem? Both sides are guilty of refusing to acknowledge the possibility their views are wrong, not just the supporters of the episodes. This is not exclusive to just one side, or even this particular discussion.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Kogetsu Shirogane

You've caused a bit of a problem with this response.

(Forgive my altering your quote, but I believe it is required for a demonstration.)



Do you see the problem? Both sides are guilty of refusing to acknowledge the possibility their views are wrong, not just the supporters of the episodes. This is not exclusive to just one side, or even this particular discussion.

Ok... it's possible that KyoAni's goal with E8 was an artistic one, and that the main thrust behind it was getting fans to identify with Yuki Nagato more... and that they tried to make it deliberately boring in order to achieve that goal. The theory doesn't fit perfectly, imo, but it is possible, I'll admit.

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

However... I'm not going to dispute it, because calling it fanservice is even more interesting than calling it moe. If it's fanservice, then that means that a significant part of each and every E8 iteration is fanservice. Kind of flies right in the face of the "E8 is anti-fanservice" idea, don't you think?

You can have fanservice and anti-fanservice in the same show, at the same time. They are not matter/anti-matter; they can co-exist. The swim suits are fanservice, the repeated plot is anti-fanservice.

Still, thanks for basically saying that KyoAni is fallible. I don't think that you're a "fanboy", Vallen... which is precisely why I was befuddled by your seeming refusal to even consider that they may have made a mistake here.

I have considered. And decided that it takes too much effort to be a mistake. It is not easy to make Endless Eight, there is pressure from above all the time to make "safe" shows, shows that are the same as every other show. To be able to make a show like Endless Eight is nearly a miracle in itself.

And why have you refused to even consider they might NOT have made a mistake? This goes both ways.

Keep in mind, anime is a low paying industry. People go into anime the same reason they go into making video games; because they love it. If the crew wanted money, and only money, they wouldn't be in the business. I find it baffling that so many in this very thread refused to believe there is a SHRED of artistic integrity in Kyoto Animation, as if they are all blood sucking ghouls or something.

At no time have I claimed you need to like EE. Neither do I think you should buy the DVDs if you don't want to. Hell, KyoAni have numbered the DVD boxes in such a way that you don't need to buy Endless Eight to fill the gaps. But I reject the idea that Endless Eight could have existed without someone in the team knowing this isn't going to be profitable, it's just that they decided to follow through anyway because that's what they wanted.