Code Geass R2 - Episode 5 Discussion / Poll

[DarkLordOfkichiku]

Originally Posted by nexocentric

Lelouch the new Char! I could see it... in some ways. But Lelouch has the athletic ability of a 70 year old... He can't pilot a nightmare frame with out C.C there. But we can forgive him and give him Char's throne!

Lelouch may have the athletic ability of a 70 year old indeed, but who said that he had to be a copy of Char ? There's some similarites and that's quite enough, I should think

Originally Posted by nexocentric

The first season was really good, and then after that it went spin kick crazy.. so to say... If you like watching any an every anime known to man though, it's not bad at all.

I see...

Originally Posted by KrimzonStriker

Uhh, I heard it from Dann, he likes to follow up on this stuff apparently. I once voiced my own concern that we wouldn't have enough time to wrap things up fast enough and thought about perhaps getting an OVA or movie, and this is the answer I got from him. Strange how that's turned around and now he's the one worried about the pacing instead of me... >_>

Hmm, I see. Well, without an actual source (interview or article) I'm a bit skeptical (sorry ), but if it is true, then I see it as good news.. Through it also makes me a bit worried about the pacing then (though certainly we seem to be reaching about where the last series ended, sorta)...

[KrimzonStriker]

Originally Posted by DarkLordOfkichiku

Hmm, I see. Well, without an actual source (interview or article) I'm a bit skeptical (sorry ), but if it is true, then I see it as good news.. Through it also makes me a bit worried about the pacing then (though certainly we seem to be reaching about where the last series ended, sorta)...

Apparently he got it from background interview material with the director about the planning of Code Geass, and how it was a 50 episode story since the beginning. I don't know, don't speak Japanese to confirm unfortunately, you can ask him on it but it seemed pretty reliable info and it suits everything else I've heard about Tanaguchi

Well, I thought it was incredibly slow at certain parts as well during R1, but amazingly it can really pick up and flow extremely well if we go by last Season so I'm not too worried.

[DeepEyes]

I practically "eat" Code Geas in this weekend and see ths first season and the five chapters of S2... I really like this series and I expect keep coming to this threads every week... As general comments at this moment... I'm the only one that hates Susaku with all his hearth and that support with all the KarenxLelouch? T_T... I have the bad omen that Karen will die in this season... That will broke my heart T_T...

~DE

[nexocentric]

Originally Posted by DarkLordOfkichiku

Lelouch may have the athletic ability of a 70 year old indeed, but who said that he had to be a copy of Char ? There's some similarites and that's quite enough, I should think

They do have quite a few similarities, and that's enough.
I just had a quick question for you. I can kind of see it myself, but a lot of people including my friends have been talking about the similarities betwee Lelouch and Light. At the end of this episode he's basically been put in a position where he's going to have to sacrifice something, just like when light

Spoiler for Death Note Manga:

killed his dad (in the manga?)

I really do see them as different people though, because lelouch is out for vengence and Light was out to make himself a god. These paths of thought are totally different, or so I think... Am I completely off?

Originally Posted by DarkLordOfkichiku

Hmm, I see. Well, without an actual source (interview or article) I'm a bit skeptical (sorry ), but if it is true, then I see it as good news.. Through it also makes me a bit worried about the pacing then (though certainly we seem to be reaching about where the last series ended, sorta)...

I found an article that basically says that they have an interview with Taniguchi in they're next 2 magazines. It's all in japanese though, and they don't tell you anymore than that...

http://geass.at.webry.info/200804/article_4.html

So we might have to wait for the interview in that, unless someone has the source of another interview?

[Kusaja]

Originally Posted by Maes Hughes

It's interesting that Taniguchi was behind both Gun x Sword and s-CRY-ed: I dropped s-CRY-ed after the most amateur death scene I've seen, my opinion being that it's a very, very poor anime. Gun x Sword, on the other hand, can only be viewed by me as a decent series by me.

I found s-CRY-ed less dragging and sleep-inducing than classic examples from the shounen fighting genre, but ultimately forgettable, while Gun x Sword I liked and wouldn't mind re-watching it once in a while.

I also thought Infinite Ryvius was pretty good -if not for everyone- and showed that a large cast could be treated decently enough. I have yet to see anything from Planetes, though I hope to do so soon. Code Geass...is still in progress, but I've been greatly entertained so far, some details aside.

Returning to Code Geass, I'm going to go with my instinct and assume the story won't be over come EP50. If you were in the shoes of Sunrise, would you end a cash cow when more money can be gotten out of another 25 episode series? It would be silly for them to end it now when they've already proven with S2 that they care more about ratings than they do about quality.

Your instinct is as good as anyone else's...but that depends on many factors. In addition to what KrimzonStriker just wrote, I'd say there's the issue of the main creative staff, Taniguchi and Okouchi in particular. Sunrise could extend the Code Geass franchise itself through a couple of minor spin-offs and continuing merchandising if they wish, and they may get to do so, but full scale sequels don't always follow successful shows, especially if the original staff believes that the main story arc has a set beginning and end, or if there are internal conflicts we currently ignore (for example, who owns all the story/creative/character rights or are they split between the staff and company?).

If that's not the case, or if the staff is unable to finish the story or simply decides to extend it as the show nears its end, or if a sequel opportunity surfaces in a couple of years, then your point definitely stands.

Sales are very important and do matter (although they are also relative...Gundam is a much more sales-friendly brand, to say the least, even if the individual series may vary, and will be a safer bet for Bandai / Sunrise in the long run), but they aren't always everything and we don't know a lot of what goes on behind the scenes. You might be right today and wrong tomorrow, or vice versa. The show may actually bomb and be a financial disaster or simply less profitable than expected.

My guess: If S2 is going to copy S1 all the way, I believe Nunnally will die similar to how Euphy did and Lelouch's transformation into Light will be complete. With Nunnally out of the way, I can easily see Lelouch being ruthless, going more and more out of control as his bid to conquer Britannia for the sake of power alone drives his personal war against his father to the point the entire world is involved.

This is all speculation, so all you've wrote could go either way or not apply at all, but I don't see why that couldn't be compressed into less episodes than season one's equivalent, at the story's current pace.

[DarkLordOfkichiku]

Originally Posted by KrimzonStriker

Apparently he got it from background interview material with the director about the planning of Code Geass, and how it was a 50 episode story since the beginning. I don't know, don't speak Japanese to confirm unfortunately, you can ask him on it but it seemed pretty reliable info and it suits everything else I've heard about Tanaguchi

Hmm.. ^_-. Ah well, we'll see...

Originally Posted by KrimzonStriker

Well, I thought it was incredibly slow at certain parts as well during R1, but amazingly it can really pick up and flow extremely well if we go by last Season so I'm not too worried.

Let's see what happens in that regard too. I just hope it doesn't become too rushed or too slow even..

Originally Posted by nexocentric

I just had a quick question for you. I can kind of see it myself, but a lot of people including my friends have been talking about the similarities betwee Lelouch and Light. At the end of this episode he's basically been put in a position where he's going to have to sacrifice something, just like when light

Spoiler for Death Note:

killed his dad

(in the manga?) I really do see them as different people though, because lelouch is out for vengence and Light was out to make himself a god. These paths of thought are totally different, or so I think... Am I completely off?

Hmm, I never really caught on the Death note train, sorta, so I only read abut 30 chapters or so and that was it. But from what I saw.. in many ways, Light wasn't all that "human" to begin with. Compared to Lelouch, from what I could see he had very few moral "brakes" in him, which is why he so easily deviated from his orignal goal and became more concerned with preserving himself and his doings, you might say. Now, it's possible that Lelouch could end up straying down that path - that has always been a possibility. But even if Nunnally were to go out of the picture one way or another, he still has more of a chance than Light to avoid that particular path IMHO. Overall, I see Lelouch as a more human character than Light ever was though - and that's exactly why he has a greater chance than Light ever had to avoid that path.

Originally Posted by nexocentric

I found an article that basically says that they have an interview with Taniguchi in they're next 2 magazines. It's all in japanese though, and they don't tell you anymore than that...

http://geass.at.webry.info/200804/article_4.html

Hmm? As far as I can see it's just a reference to the interview, not the interview itself. If it were, though, I could read it as I can read japanese to a certain extent...

[nexocentric]

Yeah, I caught that too. They were just talking about how they'd have the interview in the next issue(s) of the magazine...

[Kaioshin Sama]

Originally Posted by dom33

thats old school sunrise, the sunrise of today dosen't have the balls to do anything close to ideon or gundam zz for that matter.

@hughes your exageratting the Kallen fanservice more than I was, besides it's not so bad compared to the C.C. and Viletta fanservice or yaoiservice.

as for Shirley yes her character has been reset again, so I'm left wondering what was the point of the "Shirley letter" subplot considering nothing came out of it.

suzaku's changed is a forced as Rey's change during the finale of GSD or Akito's 180 in MSN: the prince of darkness(god that movie sucked).

for the last time Lelouch isn't Light!

iDOLM@STER Xenoglossia is oldschool Sunrise? What about MS Igloo, is that oldschool too? Or how about Armored Trooper Votoms Pailsen Files? No I think they still have it in them, it's just a matter of choice.

[cereal_killerxx]

The end of that episode made my heart drop O_O It is at this point in time that I want lelouch to kill suzaku.

[wingdarkness]

Originally Posted by Alleluia_Cone

I'm largely in agreement with your take on the episode, specifically in how it manages to mesh together disparate themes and genres in an effective manner.

I just wanted to add to my previous post that Code Geass' success to me has always lied in it's ability to encompass many genre elements (superficial and serious) within it's presentation while never betraying the intense overtones the show has had from the start... While things the characters are doing may not specifically be incredible to figure out, it's kinda incredible when they examine the actions of characters like Zero in such a personal fashion as a narrative...Like in DN, some of my favorite scenes from CG are when we simply get to look into Lulu's mind as he narrates his actions...That's as intense as any mobile suit battle for me...Then you sprikle in the MS combat almost under our noses, and it's like "Damn!" that $hit is cool too and it brings the show to another level...I mean I can't remember the last time I've watched a Mecha series (and I use that marginally) that I can't remember suit names or pine for my favorite suit to fight, because so much other good stuff is happening...I mean they really lull you to sleep with the mecha aspect, then kicka$$ with it...All the time never whoring the mechs out...That's really hard to do in a mecha series and I've seen loads of them...Add the fanservice, and aesthetically pleasing designs (and emo-faces FTinfinteW^^), and you got something that's really good to watch even when a plot-point rubs you the wrong way (And I've been critical of last season's cliche' finale and this season's reboot)...



As for the endgame of this episode you Suzaku haters (which are a bit different from Suzaku dislikers like myself ;P)...You gotta give the dude credit...You may not like his ideals, but the godamn guy is clear on the fact he hates Zero and will do anything to stop him...Being pwned multiple times by Lulu's tactics, he's now playing the game by Lulu's rules...Ultimate manipulation, using those knight chess-pieces effectively...If Lulu wasn't so caught in his moment of surprise and shame with the phone-call, I think he'd respect the play (In-terms of the chess-match)...You can never forget, not only did he kill Euphie, but he stained her legacy as a crazy princess b!tch who killed men, women, and children mercilessly (AND PERSONALLY) after lulling them into a get together for peace (Nevermind the debatable aspect of who knows what)...Suzaku hasn't forgot about any of that $hit, and to his credit, in this specific play, while he means to beat and demoralize Zero, I even saw an olive-branch somewhere in that phone-play...That's why in the preview Lulu is all like "Don't pretend to be all-friendly".... If you are already committed to taking down Zero this is the play...It's crazy to think that at this moment he still should consider Lulu's side...But in a jaded way he still has somehow from what I could see...

[ashlay]

Originally Posted by wingdarkness

....It's crazy to think that at this moment he still should consider Lulu's side...But in a jaded way he still has somehow from what I could see...

He still should have considered Nunnally.

It's not even about who's right or wrong, since obviously something like right doesn't even exist. But...I at least just can't forgive him for this one, no matter how deliciously evil he is.

[Meteor No.23]

I don't think Lelouch can lie to Nunally and thus reveal that he regain his memories to Suzaku. Then, I think, Suzaku will say that as long as Zero didn't do anything, he will not expose him but will end his life presonally if he see him on battlefiled again. Proabably will end the conversation with something like; "Don't worry. If you die, I will take care Nunally for you. Afterall, we are friend, aren't we?". Proabably what cause Lelouch to be that angry in preview.

[wingdarkness]

Originally Posted by ashlay

He still should have considered Nunnally.

It's not even about who's right or wrong, since obviously something like right doesn't even exist. But...I at least just can't forgive him for this one, no matter how deliciously evil he is.

But if Suzaku sees himself as a man of greater moral values than that of Lulu, then his intention towards Nunally can be as protective...In your eyes he's a Mcevil because of the play, but for him he's resolute and set with the position he's in, feeling he can cripple Lulu and be there for his sister even more than him...If she knew what he did to Euphie from Suzaku's perspective, that would be worst than the current play inwhich we do not know if Nunally is in any true danger (besides the macro-view that the emperor is true danger, but that's something everyone has to deal with)...With his perceived influence he can be making the play in Nunally's stead aswell...Saving her brother in a way, from his perspective ofcourse...

Also many people try to keep the Euphie thing under a blanket...Many are misjudging the totality of that weight on Suzaku's side I think... "But Lulu didn't mean it", will never be a sufficient rebuttal...The Nunally play isn't so much an eye for an eye as it is playing the game at Lulu's level...It's not like he's having her shoot children with a machine gun to internally hurt him...You see the extreme other side of that? Damn I'm starting to like defending Suzaku ...

[ashlay]

Originally Posted by wingdarkness

But if Suzaku sees himself as a man of greater moral values than that of Lulu, then his intention towards Nunally can be as protective...In your eyes he's a Mcevil because of the play, but for him he's resolute and set with the position he's in, feeling he can cripple Lulu and be there for his sister even more than him...If she knew what he did to Euphie from Suzaku's perspective, that would be worst than the current play inwhich we do not know if Nunally is in any true danger (besides the macro-view that the emperor is true danger, but that's something everyone has to deal with)...With his perceived influence he can be making the play in Nunally's stead aswell...Saving her brother in a way, from his perspective ofcourse...

Also many people try to keep the Euphie thing under a blanket...Many are misjudging the totality of that weight on Suzaku's side I think... "But Lulu didn't mean it", will never be a sufficient rebuttal...The Nunally play isn't so much an eye for an eye as it is playing the game at Lulu's level...It's not like he's having her shoot children with a machine gun to internally hurt him...You see the extreme other side of that? Damn I'm starting to like defending Suzaku ...

I'm actually not sure if Suzaku sees himself as having any sort of moral high ground at this point...but whatever. Main point is: exactly. Suzaku thinks he knows whats best for Nunnally, and what's best for Nunnally is making her cry. Because lets face it, if the situation goes according to Suzaku's plan in any way, that's exactly what's going to happen. Well then **** him, how the hell could you make a blind crippled girl who's been your friend since childhood, whom the woman you loved was willing to give up everything for, cry? (rhetorical) I'll see him bleed for this.

And yes. Once again, there's no right. Everyone's at fault, but that's not the issue. Well, at least that shouldn't be the issue. >_>

[thundrakkon]

Originally Posted by wingdarkness

Being pwned multiple times by Lulu's tactics, he's now playing the game by Lulu's rules...

Don't you mean being saved multiple times by Lulu? Yes, Suzaku has turned into a pure evil bastard from an evil bastard in denial pretending to be good.

At least he is no longer lying to himself. Although, that just makes him that much more dislikeable. For those who thought Lulu was bad, Suzaku has no sense of real justice or gratitude. He only knows how to delude himself to make excuses for his many mistakes in life.

Originally Posted by wingdarkness

But if Suzaku sees himself as a man of greater moral values than that of Lulu, then his intention towards Nunally can be as protective...

I don't think Suzaku believes he is a man of greater moral values. He is more in line of someone who is trying to hide his deficiencies by pretending to be doing the greater good. He knows he is going to hell, and he is bent on taking certain people with him.

Is he really protecting Nunally? Lulu knows that as soon as the emperor knows that Lulu has returned to being Zero, Nunally will be in danger (ep. 3 recollection). Suzaku must know the same. He is not protecting anyone. He is willing to sacrifice her life, even if all she has ever done was be good and nice to him.

Originally Posted by wingdarkness

Also many people try to keep the Euphie thing under a blanket...

Euphie was a tragedy. She was willing to work with Zero. If Suzaku realized the same thing that she did, this tragedy might not have ended up the way it did. Suzaku does not give a damn about Euphie's ideals. If he did, he would not be doing what he is doing right now. He does not respect her. He only followed her around, and when she died, he did all he can to destroy what she tried to build, which was true peace. He just continued to be a soldier, murdered, and enslaved the Japanese people. His hypocritical, ends does not justify the mean, is just that. His means have never been truly good, and the end is all he is after. Although, at this point, we are not even sure what he is truly after.

The end of this episode just shows that Suzaku has no redemption value left.

[ftghb]

I think Suzaku originally was a guy who reflected his own preachings and claims, to a certain extent. However, I think we can all agree that when Euphie died by the hands of his supposed best friend, no less, all bets were off. The Suzaku we saw from the first part of season 1 and now are completely different. I know that at the end of the episode he claimed that he aspired to be Knight of One so that he could make Japan its own again, but it seems like he has a few new priorities in order.......

btw: why would suzaku let lelouch talk to nunally? Unless he truly believes that Lelouch's memory has come back....hmmm....Or maybe he trying to elicit a reaction out of him, o well, guess we'll have to wait for next week's episode (whenever that will come)

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by ashlay

I'm actually not sure if Suzaku sees himself as having any sort of moral high ground at this point...but whatever. Main point is: exactly. Suzaku thinks he knows whats best for Nunnally, and what's best for Nunnally is making her cry. Because lets face it, if the situation goes according to Suzaku's plan in any way, that's exactly what's going to happen. Well then **** him, how the hell could you make a blind crippled girl who's been your friend since childhood, whom the woman you loved was willing to give up everything for, cry? (rhetorical) I'll see him bleed for this.

And yes. Once again, there's no right. Everyone's at fault, but that's not the issue. Well, at least that shouldn't be the issue. >_>

Could be three things:
- He believes he can get everything. Convince Lelouch to stop being Zero, get the emperor to spare him and his sister so they can live happily (and possibly incestuously, I'm not sure what the Britanian view is on that...) ever after, while he, Suzaku, reigns benevolently over Japan.
- He thinks that, even if she cries over the death of Lelouch, and over being used to bring it about, in the long run it's better for her to live in a world without Zero.
- He doesn't care about Nunally's happiness, 'cause he's acting for the greater good. That excuse's always good for everything.

[DN24]

People keep talking about how Suzaku is a hypocrite and how his plan will never work.Now, when his plan has a chance to succeed and he show us that he had stopped being a hypocrite then you say that his methods are evil and he deserve to die!!
I find it too funny that people can overlook the fact that Lelouch had: Blew up the JLF ship just to get to Cornelia,killed two of his siblings ( intentionally and unintentionally) and ordered a massacre in the process( unintentionally of course) then he abandoned his men to look for his lil sister and later shamelessly told them that he did it to win the war....
But Suzaku on the other hand will never be forgiven because: he killed his father when he was 10, he sold out his "best friend" for vengeance and for a title that can help him get closer to his goal,finally he dare to use his brain to put "everybody favorite Zero/Lelouch" in a tough situation... What do people want from Suzaku,seriously?

[Crontica]

Originally Posted by DN24

People keep talking about how Suzaku is a hypocrite and how his plan will never work.Now, when his plan has a chance to succeed and he show us that he had stopped being a hypocrite then you say that his methods are evil and he deserve to die!!
I find it too funny that people can overlook the fact that Lelouch had: Blew up the JLF ship just to get to Cornelia,killed two of his siblings ( intentionally and unintentionally) and ordered a massacre in the process( unintentionally of course) then he abandoned his men to look for his lil sister and later shamelessly told them that he did it to win the war....
But Suzaku on the other hand will never be forgiven because: he killed his father when he was 10, he sold out his "best friend" for vengeance and for a title that can help him get closer to his goal,finally he dare to use his brain to put "everybody favorite Zero/Lelouch" in a tough situation... What do people want from Suzaku,seriously?

we want him to be killed in cold blood? he gives off those "merry sue" vibes which just ticks me off

[Anh_Minh]

Unrelated question: why does the loli have Mordred, instead of, you know, the disowned Prince trying to kill his father?