Learning Japanese

[Raiga]

Kay, I think I get it. Thanks.

言える is not in the dictionary so I assume it's a form of the verb 言う, but what form is it and what's the meaning?

[Kylaran]

Originally Posted by Raiga

Kay, I think I get it. Thanks.

言える is not in the dictionary so I assume it's a form of the verb 言う, but what form is it and what's the meaning?

-える is the potential form that means something like "to be able to," "capable of," etc. The conjugation for it is fairly regular.

一段 or ichidan verbs (aka -る verbs) become -られる as in 食べる　－＞　食べられる

The rest follow the standard pattern of shifting down to the え and adding る, which is further conjugated as any ichidan verbs are.

So, for example, 言う shifts from う to え and adds a る becoming 言える meaning "to be able to say" (e.g. それが言えますかね？ "Will/Are you able to say that?).

The only difference is する and 来る. する becomes 出来る and 来る becomes 来られる/来れる because they're both irregular. する itself has no potential form; 出来る is capable of expressing potentiality without having to conjugate into a form with -える, so it expresses the same thing even in -ます form.

As you'll experience with Japanese, many conjugations are not included in the dictionary. Usually the terminal form is used (終止形) in dictionaries for verbs, but it's also known as "dictionary form" precisely for that same reason.

[Raiga]

Yah, I'm using an online dictionary that recently added the feature "check verb form," but I guess it's not perfect yet. Thanks.

Er, how would 来られる/来れる be read?

[mendokusa]

来koられる／来koれる
”-られる” express many meaning,"possible","respect","passive"
so only when meaning of "possible",some people use"-れる".

[iLney]

Thanks everyone who answered my last question

空が暗くなるやいなや、雨が降り出した.

Here, should 降り出した reads おりだした　or ふり出した?

[Raiga]

Originally Posted by mendokusa

来koられる／来koれる
”-られる” express many meaning,"possible","respect","passive"
so only when meaning of "possible",some people use"-れる".

Alright, thanks. So if 言える means "able to say," what about 言われる? It sounds more similar to the ichidan construction of adding -られる, actually.

[RandomGuy]

Originally Posted by Raiga

Alright, thanks. So if 言える means "able to say," what about 言われる? It sounds more similar to the ichidan construction of adding -られる, actually.

It's the passive form: "to be said", or "to be told", depending on the context.

[nikorai]

Originally Posted by iLney

Thanks everyone who answered my last question

空が暗くなるやいなや、雨が降り出した.

Here, should 降り出した reads おりだした　or ふり出した?

Here it is obviously 'furidasu' (to begin to rain).

No sooner did the sky become dark than it started raining.
Or: It started raining as soon as the sky became dark.
Or: The moment the sky became dark, it started raining.

’Oriru’ can be found in the expression
清水の舞台から飛び降りる。

'furu' godan
'oriru' ichidan

[Raiga]

Originally Posted by RandomGuy

It's the passive form: "to be said", or "to be told", depending on the context.

Okay, passive. How do you form the passive with ichidan verbs?

[mendokusa]

言われる

passive form
ichidan verb
-られる
見る⇒見られる
godan verb
-aれる
書く⇒書かれる
this ichidan verb is same possible verb.
so sometime when possible meaning,use that without ”ら”.
見られる⇒見れる

降り出す

降oりる
when get off car,train and so on.
for will
降fuる
when rain or snow
for nature

[solomon]

random question

What is the name of the little dot used in between first and last foreign names when written in katakana. I CANT REMEMBER!!!!!

[JINNSK]

Originally Posted by solomon

random question

What is the name of the little dot used in between first and last foreign names when written in katakana. I CANT REMEMBER!!!!!

It's 中黒(nakaguro).

[solomon]

Thanks.

Also I was wondering, does any one still do the pen pal system in this day and age?

I was talking with my mom and she suggested that keeping one would be a good way to practice the language in effect.

[mendokusa]

send me private message for japanese practice.
or these days sometimes I talk with here's someone on MSN messenger.
welcome

[mokopi]

Hello~! みんなお元気ですか～。

＾＿＾

I have a question today

洗濯物(　)たんすの引き出し(て)しまう。

One of the many questions in my 復習テスト paper D8...

I'm not very sure what the question wants.

Like, should it be:

sentakumono wo tansu no hikidashiteshimau (?)
Pull out the laundry from cabinet (but, shouldn't the の be に instead?)

Here's how the question looks like. I'm supposed to fill in the blanks with the particles が・を・に・で and arrange the sequence of the actions on the left... I've inserted my answers here but...


(４)　１洗濯物(が)かわく。　　＜＜The laundry is dry.
(３)　２洗濯物(を)洗濯機(に)洗う。　　＜＜Wash laundry in washer.
(２)　３洗濯機(に)水と洗剤(を)入れる。　　＜＜Put water and detergent into washer.
(５)　４洗濯物(　)たんすの引き出し(て)しまう。(This is the one that bugged me)　
(１)　５洗濯物(を)干す。　　＜＜Dry the laundry.
(６)　６洗濯物(を)たたむ。　　＜＜Fold the laundry.

I assume 4 is the first action... though I don't see why dirty laundry are kept in the cabinet o.O... unless the cabinet means a totally different thing altogether... like part of the washer or something...

[mendokusa]

(４)　１洗濯物(が)かわく。　　＜＜The laundry is dry.
(３)　２洗濯物(を)洗濯機(に)洗う。　　＜＜Wash laundry in washer.
(２)　３洗濯機(に)水と洗剤(を)入れる。　　＜＜Put water and detergent into washer.
(５)　４洗濯物(　)たんすの引き出し(て)しまう。(This is the one that bugged me)　
(１)　５洗濯物(を)干す。　　＜＜Dry the laundry.
(６)　６洗濯物(を)たたむ。　　＜＜Fold the laundry.

there is answer ,but font color is white.
you have your answer,and you can read by"CTRL+A"

3→2→5→1→6→4
1が
2を、で
3に、を
4を、に
5を
6を

use"で",when ways and means.
電車denshaで行iく
go by train
手紙tegamiで想omoいを伝tsutaえる
convey love by letter

use"引hiき出daして" when take out from たんす.
服fukuをたんすから引き出して着kiる。
take out clothes from wardrobe,and wear one.

sorry,4's 2nd is "に".

[mokopi]

Originally Posted by mendokusa

there is answer ,but font color is white.
you have your answer,and you can read by"CTRL+A"

3→2→5→1→6→4
1が
2を、で
3に、を
4を、で
5を
6を

use"で",when ways and means.
電den車shaで行iく
go by train
手te紙gamiで想omoいを伝tsutaえる
convey love by letter

use"引hiき出daして" when take out from たんす.
服fukuをたんすから引き出して着kiる。
take out clothes from wardrobe,and wear one.

Ah I see

But how come "の" is used in 洗濯物をたんすの引き出してしまう。 ?

[mendokusa]

”引き出し”is a part of "たんす".drawer

一段目ichidannmeの引hiき出kiしが壊kowaれる。
break down the first drawer

AをBにしまう。
put A in B.

洗濯物を　たんすの　引き出しに　しまう
put the laundry in a drawer of wardrobe

[Raiga]

Originally Posted by mendokusa

passive form
ichidan verb
-られる
見る⇒見られる
godan verb
-aれる
書く⇒書かれる
this ichidan verb is same possible verb.
so sometime when possible meaning,use that without ”ら”.
見られる⇒見れる

Okay I think I got it. So let me get this straight:

For godan verbs, the passive/potential/polite form involves changing the ending to the あ行 kana and adding れる, but if you just want it to mean potential, you can change the ending to the corresponding え行 kana and just add る.
For ichidan verbs, the passive/potential/polite form involves replacing the ending with られる but if you just want it to mean potential, you can replace the ending with れる.

Is that right?

Also, when using the られる form, as passive, I think I've seen this construction before... does に mark the agent? As in, say AはBに殺された would mean "A was killed by B," would it?

[nikorai]

Raiga
Your explanation sounds very complicated.
In my textbook it was exlained that for ichidan verbs passive and potential forms correspond.
見れる is colloquial. In the textbook it was said that technically it's not grammatically correct.
Perhaps when suitable it's safer to use v+ことができる instead.

For godan verbs use 仮定形
(use -eru ending)
e.g.　言う＞言える
話す＞話せる
走る＞走れる
etc.

As for the passive constructions, I noticed that it's very widely used in Japanese and much more often than in English. So, in many cases active voice in English is translated by passive in Japanese. Say, in English the sentence about killing someone would sound better with "B killed A".
For example,
(about a party) They'll kill me if I pass. (impersonal)
行かなかったら、殺されるってこと。

You can also notice that the word order is opposite of English. It's like everything's upside down.

Another example with directional verbs:
The teacher explained a new grammar rule to me.
(私は）先生に新しい文法規則を教えていただきました。

And you're right about the polite form. It works when you put verb in passive form using active voice.