Madoka Magica - Episode 09 Discussion / Poll

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by hyperborealis

Sure, QB's scum. But what he does is all too human. Getting other people to pay for our own privileges is something people do all the time. I mean, you may be wearing a shirt made by some child slave in some sweatshop on another continent. And in some contexts, giving up your life to save others is considered heroic--we hand out medals, rename buildings in heroes' honor, etc.

You know what's scary? If it really came down to it, if the universe really required the death of magical girls so that human life could go on, human culture would...adjust. QB is a mirror, and you're looking at it.

We would adjust under our own terms. If we have to sacrifice lives, we would do so because we decided to, not become some other alien race ordered us to.

Originally Posted by MaiNoKen

What is evil and good depends on which side you are on. That has always been the case in history . Sometimes even the division between "sides" and "factions" is not even that clear.

This discussion suddenly reminds me much of Catch-22...

So, which side are YOU on, then?
You can't pretend to be an objective third party here.

Originally Posted by totoum

You're free to say QB is saying bullshit but his argument is that a few teenage girls here and there out of 6.9 billion people isn't going to put humanity in any danger and that by stopping entropy he's saving humanity (as well as the universe).

"Saving Humanity"?
QB didn't give a damn about saving humanity. He is doing this to save his masters. Don't even act like he is doing us a favour, his is killing our people because it is better for HIM, nothing else.

[Sheba]

Originally Posted by hyperborealis

How does QB the demon collecting souls make more sense than QB the anti-Entropy alien collecting fuel for the universal gas tank?


That aside, what's the difference? Just asking!

Unless we are being shown clues about it, the heat death of the universe is much harder to buy for anyone who have a little knowledge about it. It's something that is not supposed to happen before dozens of billions of years from now on. Not something to worry about in Madoka's lifetime.

I mean, he could have said, "I did it for the lulz", I would have believed it.

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by Sheba

Unless we are being shown clues about it, the heat death of the universe is much harder to buy for anyone who have a little knowledge about it. It's something that is not supposed to happen before dozens of billions of years from now on. Not something to worry about in Madoka's lifetime.

In fact, if humans are still around by then, we would probably have mastered magic and solved the heat death issue. A few billion years is a long time to develop magitech. Hopefully also QB's people would have been driven to extinction.

[Wakan Tanka]

Has any one here read the sci-fi novel "Ender's game"? I see some things in common considering QB.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Sheba

Unless we are being shown clues about it, the heat death of the universe is much harder to buy for anyone who have a little knowledge about it. It's something that is not supposed to happen before dozens of billions of years from now on. Not something to worry about in Madoka's lifetime.

I mean, he could have said, "I did it for the lulz", I would have believed it.

I hate to say it, guys, but Gen Urobuchi might have simply not done the research here.

I mean, to everyone who is saying "Entropy doesn't work like that! So Kyubey must be lying!", the truth may simply be that Gen himself doesn't have a good handle on Entropy, and hence here we are now (I stand to be corrected here, though, if someone can point out a Gen work where entropy is referenced and used in accordance with real world scientific knowledge).

Also, maybe entropy works differently in the Madoka Magica universe than it does in ours. :shrug:

[SagaraSouske]

If you are talking about buggers and hive queen, they are nothing like QB.

[Wakan Tanka]

Originally Posted by SagaraSouske

If you are talking about buggers and hive queen, they are nothing like QB.

Yup.......

[hyperborealis]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

And that's a big part of the reason why humans need to oppose them here. If we're going to have any dealings with Kyubey and his people, they need to be on a more even playing field than this.

Your moral argument is impeccable. But if QB really has this sort of power and perspective, it is hard to see how any human relations with him could conceivably ever be equal.

You know, the real question is--given QB's evident power, given the extreme necessity of saving the universe (assuming that's a real motive), given his lack of understanding of human values--why doesn't he just take what he wants? why go through the charade of contracts?

Is there a demon-contract rule, vampires-can't-come-in-unless-they're-invited sort of rule going on?

Or, maybe, QB is in his own fashion playing it straight with humans?! He does talk about there being rules in how he approaches humans--so maybe what we are watching is a hyper-powerful alien's best effort at dealing with the natives on an "even playing field?" He's way more restrained than Pizarro or Cortes ever were. How do you account for that?

[Mentar]

Originally Posted by Jimmy C

I suspect that the alterations (assuming there really were any) were made to make things more different from the Star Driver episode. Gen and co. probably tried to make Kyubei's motive as distinct as possible without changing too much. You don't change something important like one faction's motives this late in a series. Evidently, they didn't not entirely succeed. One wonders how they found out what another studio was doing with a currently in production show.

Wow. So you honestly believe that this totally braindead and 100% illogical "alien caring about the universe's entropy" explanation would be pulled by two shows at exactly the same time? And that even after realizing that, Urobuchi would _fail_ at rewriting the script to wipe or at least conceal the similarities?

You know, I realize that you're not a troll, I really enjoy most of your contributions. How could your thinking processes yield THIS result?

*gets an aspirin for the resulting headache*

[Jimmy C]

It'd be even worse if it had been even more like Star Driver's explaination, wouldn't it?

[garbage]

Originally Posted by Malkuth

I said this before, Mami would be dead if not for QB giving her a second chance, more or less the same is true for Kyouko, while in Sayaka's case, it's her fault that not benefitting for her wish. QB offered a contract, if the other party does not take advantage of it as much as it could, it is childish and pointless to baptize their own failure into manipulation (a theme handled near the end of Faust, if I remember correctly).

well i would have agreed with you except that the contractor is doomed to failure, because the situation is rigged, how can the party in question (the girls) take full advantage of the wish when :
1) THEY ARE YOUNG INEXPERIENCED GIRLS,i highly doubt they have ever signed any kind of contract to begin with, let alone a life changing one such as this. that's why parental consent is important for minors. QB never asked their parents/guardians probably because they'll just kick it's behind.
2) they were asked to decide during times of DURESS AND GREAT STRESS. in fact it seems QB is such an expert in timing it. and it seems is counting on it. after all he wants them to turn witch for his energy. QB is doing it right now with madoka, OPENLY ADMITTING setting it up so that only Homura is left for walpurgisnight, so that madoka would then be forced to contract with it.
3) VALUABLE INFORMATION WAS LEFT OUT

it's up to you if you don't want to call that manipulation. but then what is it?
side comments for the wishes
- Mami's wish, a lot of people keep using the reason Mami would be dead if not for the wish as if it's a foregone conclusion, and i always thought how do we know this? do we have the background info from then, was she really that close to dying? were there really no ambulance incoming? we would never know. that's only QBs and maybe mami's view (helped in by QB). now how much do we trust QB?
- Kyoko's wish = was fucked up, what QB did was certainly not the intent of kyoko. all she got was mindless zombies going to his father's service which drove him mad. you can argue that the wisher, kyoko, was responsible for wording the wish wrong or such, but then see 1) & 2) above.
- sayaka's wish - for the purpose of the wisher's intent the best wish among the girls that we know, as it happened as intended by her. but then she was screwed over by number 3) above, not knowing that she would turn into a "zombie" and would feel that she can't be with the guy anymore. you can argue that where the soul is doesn't really matter. but that's for some people, NOT FOR SAYAKA, not for a lot of other people. IT MATTERS for her. will she still contract knowing this? maybe, maybe not. but i'm pretty sure if she still contracts then she would not have fallen so low or as depressed, because she would have previous knowledge, and knows what would happen but still decide to sacrifice for the guy.

Originally Posted by totoum

You're free to say QB is saying bullshit but his argument is that a few teenage girls here and there out of 6.9 billion people isn't going to put humanity in any danger and that by stopping entropy he's saving humanity (as well as the universe).

just a few points please ( if what he said was actually true and not a complete BS as mentar maintains)
1) 1 life < 2 lives < 1 million lives, all life is sacred. now you can argue that he is alien and does not share our values. but that is irrelevant he is here on earth harming us humans so he has to follow our rules our laws.
2) QB is willfully creating witches which in turn harms other humans, so it's not just the girls lives which are at stake here. but far far more.
3) QB is trying to create the most powerful witch madoka. still think he's not putting humanity in danger? ( in fact if madoka is all that powerful wouldn't it be putting a large part or even the whole universe in peril too?)
4) again as i've posted earlier entropy death is so far off in the future millions or billions years hence (in fact is not yet totally proven in such a large system with so many unknowns as the whole universe)that it is of dubious benefit to humanity. our sun would go nova first, our planet would more probably be hit by wandering planets or other objects. or we could have gone to the stars ourselves long before that. do you know how insignificant our entire planets entropy change is compared to the sun? let alone the giant stars, the only way that it can be of urgent danger is if there is someone/somerace using absurdly vast amounts of energy, probably in the order of millions of quasars. and then most probably it would be QBs race doing it. using up those mass amounts of energy. as i said before if they don't want to save energy, and cant be bothered to cooperate with us in finding a viable compromise, then they should just die out themselves to save the greater universe if that's the case. but no they rather sacrifice humanity.
we have the right to fight back, after all the magical energy comes from us we get to say how it is used.- IF QB is in fact from a different UNIVERSE or DIMENSION already near heat death and what he is trying to do is revive their UNIVERSE. then there is no benefit whatsoever for humanity. in any case QB is just a high tech (or high magic?) ENERGY THIEF.

Originally Posted by hyperborealis

You know, the real question is--given QB's evident power, given the extreme necessity of saving the universe (assuming that's a real motive), given his lack of understanding of human values--why doesn't he just take what he wants? why go through the charade of contracts?

Is there a demon-contract rule, vampires-can't-come-in-unless-they're-invited sort of rule going on?

Or, maybe, QB is in his own fashion playing it straight with humans?! He does talk about there being rules in how he approaches humans--so maybe what we are watching is a hyper-powerful alien's best effort at dealing with the natives on an "even playing field?" He's way more restrained than Pizarro or Cortes ever were. How do you account for that?

hmm one possibility is that he needs the owners consent or willingness to be able to remove the soul from it's natural abode, hence the contract. this in fact will work whether QB's an alien or a demon.

[Mentar]

Originally Posted by Jimmy C

It'd be even worse if it had been even more like Star Driver's explaination, wouldn't it?

You really don't get the joke? Then I'll try to explain it - on the risk of being wrong. But I don't think I am.

In the _original_ unedited ep9 version, QB will most likely have stalled and stonewalled just like before, with some random Cover Your Ass story. But then, Urobuchi (who's a fairly social guy and mingling with alot of colleagues) will have heard about the Star Driver twist, and thought "awesome, I can use that, we have some fun and free marketing along with it", and changed the ep9 script to let QB tell the hair-raising entropy alien story. He read the boards and KNEW that people would gobble it up like manna from heaven (since we "knew" that QB never "lied"), and that they'd start to speculate into a completely wrong direction. And then he can enjoy the faces who go "WTF, the same happening in Star Driver??" - Shinbo confirmed that there were some last-minute changes to ep9. It must have been just that.

Result: Lots of extra buzz for Star Driver, which gets linked to the hot Madoka franchise, and extra mentions for the latter, too. And Urobuchi Gen gets another total kick out of the joke, watching people go mad out of the initial misdirection of the trusting sheep. He LOVES to do that. He'll rather go "amazing what you can make people believe, isn't it?"

Alternatively, feel free to believe that the SD scriptwriter and Urobuchi came to exactly the same story background idea independently. I don't.

[MaiNoKen]

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

"Saving Humanity"?
QB didn't give a damn about saving humanity. He is doing this to save his masters. Don't even act like he is doing us a favor, his is killing our people because it is better for HIM, nothing else.

Similar problems happen all the time in everyday life. I think the creators are just using an extreme example and (unconventional) fiction bringing it out. Often such problems are created by reasons completely out of the hands of the person(s) who is in charge to fix it.

And about the mess QB is trying to solve... One can always talk about a sustainable long-term solution to a future problem. I try to do my part in preventing such problems, but I can never make another person to do their part. In the end, someone had to do "QB job" at the end...

[Deconstructor]

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

Food is allowed to fight back. Even more so, the fact that Magic is something that is beyond QB's understanding. Once the masquerade is removed, humanity would be able to create a magical army stronger than QB's capacity to defeat, and crush their home dimension for their crime against us.

Remember, they are only more advanced technically; we are the ones with magic on our side. As long as we survive as a species long enough, the hunted will become the hunter.

You certainly are hopeful about the Earth's chances.
Unfortunately, with all the crap that has happened to Madoka and company, I am not so. I am convinced that Madoka cannot defeat Kyubey's system by playing along.

Originally Posted by totoum

You seemed to have missed mentar's point,if the motives QB presented in this episode are a complete lie then you can change them to whichever lie you want without affecting the plot much since the real motive stays the same.

Kyubey has never lied explicitly. Shinbo and Urobuchi are trying to keep Kyubey from lying, so they have the possibility of revealing him as the honest hero instead of an evil antagonist.
Implicitly, I would argue he has lied by not telling his Puella Magi they would turn into witches.

Originally Posted by hyperborealis

That may be the point of the deconstruction of the Magical Girl genre: to lead the viewers to value ordinary life. But I wonder--suffering and tragedy are also quite ordinary. To live a life without that--that is even more fantastic than to become a magical girl. And for those who do, theirs is a life of privilege paid for by other people, exactly as QB proposes for other people to die so that he can live. How do we live in a world which includes suffering and tragedy? Perhaps that is what Madoka Magica is really about.

The despair of the real world cannot compare in magnitude to what Madoka and Sayaka experience. Ordinary life is boring and repetitive, compared to the extraordinary lives of Puella Magi.

There are people in our world that put their lives at risk every day so that normal people can survive. Sometimes, they enter danger just so normal people can be entertained. Gladiators would fight to the death while crowds of people watched in delight.

I find this anime mainly concerned with the responsibilities of a magical girl. Most anime do not go past Uncle Ben's "with great power comes great responsibility" speech. Madoka Magica sounds more like this: "Great power comes at an even greater price."

Originally Posted by Mentar

In the _original_ unedited ep9 version, QB will most likely have stalled and stonewalled just like before, with some random Cover Your Ass story. But then, Urobuchi (who's a fairly social guy and mingling with alot of colleagues) will have heard about the Star Driver twist, and thought "awesome, I can use that, we have some fun and free marketing along with it", and changed the ep9 script to let QB tell the hair-raising entropy alien story. He read the boards and KNEW that people would gobble it up like manna from heaven (since we "knew" that QB never "lied"), and that they'd start to speculate into a completely wrong direction. And then he can enjoy the faces who go "WTF, the same happening in Star Driver??" - Shinbo confirmed that there were some last-minute changes to ep9. It must have been just that.

In summary, you are suggesting that Urobuchi stole Star Driver's idea.
While I do agree that nothing in anime is coincidence, that is a hefty accusation against Urobuchi. Last minute changes could have been in other areas, such as Kyoko's sacrifice and Sayaka's design. I am not convinced that Kyubey is lying just yet.
In fact, Urobuchi may be running with the entropy idea for the rest of the season.

[garbage]

oh i just thought of something QB is an ANTI-SPIRAL spy/messenger/energy collector! from the TTGL universe hehe

Originally Posted by Triple_R

I hate to say it, guys, but Gen Urobuchi might have simply not done the research here.

I mean, to everyone who is saying "Entropy doesn't work like that! So Kyubey must be lying!", the truth may simply be that Gen himself doesn't have a good handle on Entropy, and hence here we are now (I stand to be corrected here, though, if someone can point out a Gen work where entropy is referenced and used in accordance with real world scientific knowledge).

Also, maybe entropy works differently in the Madoka Magica universe than it does in ours. :shrug:

I read ur post after i posted mine ^^ but yeah it's possible a) Gen have not done the research b) their reality's entropy works different than ours... or as mentar said c) all BS

in any case, QB still needs to answer for his actions.

[Ottocycle]

Originally Posted by Cosmic Eagle

Errm...what are you guys talking about? What script change? Star Driver is by Bones is it not? While this is by SHAFT....

I don't know about any script change, but the one similarity is that both shows have Aniplex represented on their production committees, and they usually have lots of financial clout with their sponsoring and marketing of the shows.

coughcoughITSASONYkoffkoff.

Just pointing that fact out, make of that what you will.

[MaiNoKen]

Originally Posted by Deconstructor

In summary, you are suggesting that Urobuchi stole Star Driver's idea.
While I do agree that nothing in anime is coincidence, that is a hefty accusation against Urobuchi. Last minute changes could have been in other areas, such as Kyoko's sacrifice and Sayaka's design. I am not convinced that Kyubey is lying just yet.
In fact, Urobuchi may be running with the entropy idea for the rest of the season.

While ideas do get stolen all the time (in general; and so are coincidences), I am not sure Urobuchi can make drastic changes in the story in "last minute". The general script of the story has to be down on paper and be talked around among the production staff well before the show is on the screen.

I think people give too much credit to the Internet boards for "creating the story". One can always argue in reverse - someone in the Internet board has guessed correctly what is in Urobuchi's mind

[Mentar]

Originally Posted by Deconstructor

Kyubey has never lied explicitly. Shinbo and Urobuchi are trying to keep Kyubey from lying, so they have the possibility of revealing him as the honest hero instead of an evil antagonist.
Implicitly, I would argue he has lied by not telling his Puella Magi they would turn into witches.

It would be perfectly in-character for Urobuchi to laugh at those people who come up with "QB never lied, so he can be trusted". This is what I'm convinced he's doing here. There is no storytelling reason whatsoever why QB couldn't immediately start lying when he felt like it.

In summary, you are suggesting that Urobuchi stole Star Driver's idea.

Not stole, borrowed. Stuff like that would have to be approved, so we can safely assume that the SD staff is complicit.

While I do agree that nothing in anime is coincidence, that is a hefty accusation against Urobuchi.

See above. He's actually doing SD a favor this way. This is excellent viral marketing.

Last minute changes could have been in other areas, such as Kyoko's sacrifice and Sayaka's design. I am not convinced that Kyubey is lying just yet.
In fact, Urobuchi may be running with the entropy idea for the rest of the season.

Eps 1-8 had not the slightest TRACE of this theme, and Urobuchi is really the kind of guy who puts alot of emphasis in developing the main themes properly. And the theme over the course of the anime has been the _soul_, not entropy. I would be very surprised if entropy would play any role outside of possible QB pitches.

Originally Posted by MaiNoKen

While ideas do get stolen all the time (in general; and so are coincidences), I am not sure Urobuchi can make drastic changes in the story in "last minute". The general script of the story has to be down on paper and be talked around among the production staff well before the show is on the screen.

I think people give too much credit to the Internet boards for "creating the story". One can always argue in reverse - someone in the Internet board has guessed correctly what is in Urobuchi's mind

This is no drastic change at all, because it's completely irrelevant. It's a simple friggen LIE. It didn't even move Madoka. I'd bet that before it would have been something along the line of "better to sacrifice few to save all", the remaining fig leaf of the QB defense team. Madoka didn't buy it either.

And besides, it's well-known how closely Urobuchi Gen pays attention to what happens on the net.

[Deconstructor]

Originally Posted by MaiNoKen

While ideas do get stolen all the time (in general; and so are coincidences), I am not sure Urobuchi can make drastic changes in the story in "last minute". The general script of the story has to be down on paper and be talked around among the production staff well before the show is on the screen.

Do not worry; I know great ideas get stolen every day.
However, when you steal/borrow an idea from a competing anime show... that is much more serious than stealing off an anonymous poster on the Internet.

Originally Posted by Mentar

It would be perfectly in-character for Urobuchi to laugh at those people who come up with "QB never lied, so he can be trusted". This is what I'm convinced he's doing here. There is no storytelling reason whatsoever why QB couldn't immediately start lying when he felt like it.

Kyubey did say once he is bound to follow "rules." I assume the rules are in place so Kyubey does not recruit every depressed teenage girl into his army of magical zombies. There may be drawbacks to abusing the human race too quickly. Perhaps one of these rules prevents Kyubey from explicitly lying.

Originally Posted by Mentar

Not stole, borrowed. Stuff like that would have to be approved, so we can safely assume that the SD staff is complicit. See above. He's actually doing SD a favor this way. This is excellent viral marketing.

I agree that the connection between Madoka Magica and Star Driver is causing nothing less than mass hyspeculah. I also see why both animation studios would have to be working together; otherwise, there would be conflicts between the two rival producers. I do not think two anime have coordinated so closely together at the same time. This is something I have never seen before.

Originally Posted by Mentar

Eps 1-8 had not the slightest TRACE of this theme, and Urobuchi is really the kind of guy who puts alot of emphasis in developing the main themes properly. And the theme over the course of the anime has been the _soul_, not entropy. I would be very surprised if entropy would play any role outside of possible QB pitches.

Episodes 1 through 8 seem to focus on the conflicts between the girls - the human world. As far as I know, episode 9 may be the start of the microscope zooming out. We may see that other lifeforms exist in the universe.

Kyubey has never lied explicitly, so I believe what he says. However, I feel that Kyubey is once again hiding information.

[MaiNoKen]

Originally Posted by Mentar

And besides, it's well-known how closely Urobuchi Gen pays attention to what happens on the net.

I think the punch line is that no one really knows what Urobuchi and his staff are thinking. If Urobuchi and his staff are too predictable, that would make the series far less interesting.

Quite a few creators in the Otaku circles do follow net closely, Urobuchi is certainly not an exception. I am Twitter follower of Yasumi Matsuno (creator of Tactics Ogre and FFT) and Tanemura Arina (creator of Full Moon of Sagashite and Kaitou Jeanne).

As for now, I am quite happy that I am enjoying the show - Madoka Magica is something different, something ambitious, and a much needed change to the industry. I do think there are other recent creative works - like Summer Wars and Kaiba, but they are unable to generate as much impact as in Madoka Magica. However, I think that has something to do with fan taste and marketing.