(L) Spring 2006 BONES series: Ju Oh Sei

[Scribble]

I'm glad people like it...as expected from BONES. I'm really looking forward to this, but I'm a bit disappointed that it's listed as 11 episodes? I thought it'd become my next huge Juuni Kokki or FMA epic =(

I can't wait till it's subbed though.

Spoiler:

Unless it isn't subbed because everyone's too busy subbing KIBA =X

[Friera]

Uhm, at AnimeNewsNtework it is listed as "shounen", hoever. Isn't the manga a "shoujo" manga?

[musouka]

Originally Posted by Friera

Uhm, at AnimeNewsNtework it is listed as "shounen", hoever. Isn't the manga a "shoujo" manga?

Yes, it ran in Lala, which is a shoujo magazine published by Hakusensha. I don't read the mag myself (I'm a Betsu HanaYume fan), but I believe the target audience skews older.

[MrProphet]

AnimeNewsNetwork is fan-maitained, so it's, basically, whatever floats their boat. Unlike factual infromation, genre is a very subjective category. Depends on the POV.

I am still rather baffled at the idea of "sci-fi josei". What does it even mean? Girls like sci-fi now? Since when?

[BluWacky]

Originally Posted by Friera

Uhm, at AnimeNewsNtework it is listed as "shounen", hoever. Isn't the manga a "shoujo" manga?

Yup (where's NeoSam when you need him?) - I believe the manga originally ran in LaLa, but curiously was published in tankoubon form by Jets Comics, a typically seinen branding (Berserk is released by them); however, the wideban editions being published now are under the Hana to Yume branding, which is shoujo through and through.

How odd!

(sorry for the redundant post, I spent ages trying to work out what the hell was up with the manga and didn't see musouka's until I'd posted...)

[BluWacky]

Originally Posted by MrProphet

AnimeNewsNetwork is fan-created, so it's basically, whatever floats their boat. Unlike factual infromation, genre is a very subjective category. Depends on the POV.

I am still rather baffled at the idea of "sci-fi josei". What does it even mean? Girls like sci-fi now? Since when?

I know you're being flippant, but I'm going to respond seriously because I'm a glutton for punishment...

Since ages, in Japan at least - Natsumi Itsuki is no stranger to sci-fi, and her previous manga OZ (set post-World War III) won the Seiunsho prize for best sci-fi manga (for any audience) in 1993. Reiko Shimizu's Kaguya Hime (genetic clones) won the Shogakukan award for best shoujo manga in 2002, Moto Hagio's classic They Were Eleven (which has been animated) from 1975, Saki Hiwatari's Please Save My Earth...

Most of it isn't hardcore reverse-the-polarity sci-fi or anything; a lot of shoujo sci-fi is more "fantasy" than technobabble as far as I can tell, or maybe it's just that my tastes lie generally more towards fantasy so that's what I've tended to read (I'm not a HUGE manga fan generally, so I'm not that good on suggesting stuff that fits the bill). Most of it wouldn't be considered "girly" in the West at all. But then different cultures, different categorisations, yadda yadda yadda

[MrProphet]

Originally Posted by BluWacky

I know you're being flippant, but I'm going to respond seriously because I'm a glutton for punishment...

Sure, I'll take that one up. 8)

"Josei" is, by definition, an audience of young college-aged women. When we say that "this anime is josei", we mean that it is aimed at that specific core audience
(I am saying "core" because I doubt most of us here are Japanese women, aged 18-25, but we still kinda like the show ).

Also, when we are saying that "this anime is josei", we are implying several qualities of that anime, mostly relating to plot and characters. For the most part, those qualities are similar to qualities of shoujo anime (which is aimed at mid-high school girls), but adapted for the different age. It mostly means: suave and debonair bishounen, girl power, a slightly more mature approach to love and love life (including sex) and other stuff from a similar category.

Science Fiction is not one of those qualities of josei that we usually take for granted, mostly because the core audience of josei is not very much interested in sci-fi. When you say that "Natsumi Itsuki is no stranger to sci-fi", it only means that she is not trying to reach a regular josei audience, but is, in fact, widening her approach to her readers, making her stories interesting to wider variety of readers.

So, when we are saying that "Jyu-Oh-Sei" is a "sci-fi josei", we are being redundant. It's simply josei because it's targeted at the josei audience.

However, a "seinen" audience (think: josei, but for guys) likes smart sci-fi, so the sci-fi element of Jyu-Oh-Sei is targeted not at young women, but, in fact, at young men.

So, by saing "sci-fi josei" we are also being misleading, because we imply that sci-fi is a quality that the josei audience appreciates in josei. It is not, trust me!

What would be a much better desciption is. It's not josei, and it's not "sci-fi josei", but it's a "seinen/josei" mix, with different aspects aimed at different audiences. Cute guys for the ladies, intriguing sci-fi plot for the gentlemen. When mixed in reasonable proportions, as Jyu-Oh-Sei seems to be, it produces a show that sattisfies both audiences.

And that's my point, in a bit too much detail. 8)

[musouka]

Originally Posted by BluWacky

I believe the manga originally ran in LaLa, but curiously was published in tankoubon form by Jets Comics, a typically seinen branding (Berserk is released by them)

The Jets comics brand isn't just seinen; it also has stuff for girls under its label as well. (The first one coming to my mind is "New York, New York") I'm hesitantly assuming that it's a kinda special label for comics that might have a different appeal than the normal label does.

What I'm thinking of here is Barbara Ikai (by Hagio Moto). It was serialized in Flower Comics, but published under a different label, and size, than your average Flower Comic series. It's also shelved under the "ladies" stuff in the bookstore. I think perhaps Juuousei is a similar case.

As for the shoujo/jousei sci-fi thing, I'm afraid you've opened a huge can of worms in front of me. Sorry, I'll try to keep it short.

In fact, I'll just say that when some of Ray Bradbury's short stories aimed at boys were turned into manga, they were published in a girl's magazine. Shoujo sci-fi was bigger in the 80's I think, and BluWacky is right in that it's not so much "hard sci-fi", but I wouldn't go so far as to call it "fantasy-ish".

I'd really love to see Shimizu's "Jack and Elena" series animated, which is about a pair of immortal robots. In fact, after watching Juuousei, I desperately would like to see some of her 80's sci-fi animated, because Juuousei really reminded me of some of her stuff...

EDIT: But Juuousei isn't aimed at a seinen audience. And I think it's silly to assume that "women don't like sci-fi, so that aspect must be aimed at male readers."

[MrProphet]

Originally Posted by musouka

EDIT: But Juuousei isn't aimed at a seinen audience.

Based on episode 1 I would definitely disagree.

And I think it's silly to assume that "women don't like sci-fi, so that aspect must be aimed at male readers."

It's not silly, it's just statistical!

I am not trying to generalize ALL women or ALL men here, but a majority of a sample of women we are talking about would probably not like sci-fi compared to a similar sample of men.

Same is true in reverse. There are guys who like when a series has beautifully designed male characters (and it has nothing to do with sexual orientation). Some of us are just drawn to an aestheticaly pleasing rendition of a person, male or female. But, it would be wrong to say that a majority of guys would like a certain anime because there are bishounen in it, is that not correct?

PS: We seem to be arguing semantics quite a lot here, aren't we? 8) BluWacky is correct that I was somewhat flippant at the begining, but now that I've rationalized my argument, I am standing by it.

[musouka]

Originally Posted by MrProphet

Based on episode 1 I would definitely disagree.

So what in particular makes it seinen and doesn't make it something girls would want to watch/read?

Originally Posted by MrProphet

I am not trying to generalize ALL women or ALL men here, but a majority of a sample of women we are talking about would probably not like sci-fi compared to a similar sample of men.

If you are going to quote "statistics" then you should have a hard number backing you up. Otherwise it is just generalization. I think, perhaps, you might be basing your idea on Western cultural norms, which I think is mistaken in this situation.

Originally Posted by MrProphet

PS: We seem to be arguing semantics quite a lot here

Anything to get the thread post count up. And I know you were being flippant.

[MrProphet]

Originally Posted by musouka

So what in particular makes it seinen and doesn't make it something girls would want to watch/read?

Oh, I wasn't claiming that!

Please refer back to my post above where I am trying to make a point that Jyu-Oh-Sei is a series that is aimed at both seinen and jousei and has elements to attract both these audiences, not just the women.

If you are going to quote "statistics" then you should have a hard number backing you up. Otherwise it is just generalization. I think, perhaps, you might be basing your idea on Western cultural norms, which I think is mistaken in this situation.

Ever tried taking your girlfriend to a sci-fi movie?

Here's one, but, honestly, I wouldn't pay much attention, because: a) it's beyond the scope of our discussion (which is a specific anime), b) you are correct that we aren't discussing a Western audience, and c) I've found similar studies claiming the exact opposite.

[musouka]

Well, in one of your examples, you said that most guys won't want to read something with a bunch of bishounen characters in it. While I disagree--look at your average shounen manga cast--what I'm trying to say is that having a cast full of bishounen doesn't mean that the series is aimed at girls as well as guys.

Likewise, having sci-fi in a series doesn't mean you are specifically trying to attract a male audience, or that it is supposed to appeal to a male audience. Whether or not guys enjoy it is inconsequencial.

Take Banana Fish for example, which is a shoujo manga about long, drawn out gang wars with rough, almost Otomo-ish art. While it proved popular with both genders, it was still a girl's manga aimed at girls. There is nothing wrong with guys reading and enjoying it, but that doesn't make them the target audience.

[MrProphet]

Originally Posted by musouka

Well, in one of your examples, you said that most guys won't want to read something with a bunch of bishounen characters in it. While I disagree--look at your average shounen manga cast--what I'm trying to say is that having a cast full of bishounen doesn't mean that the series is aimed at girls as well as guys.

Let's take, say, BLEACH as an example. It's an undoubtly shounen series that has also attracted a large female fanbase. But there is quite a lot of difference between the level of attractiveness between characters. Ichigo, the protagonist, is just a regular good-looking guy, not ugly, but not a bishounen either. But someone like Byakuya is clearly effeminate enough to be considered a classical bishounen. Male viewers associate themself with Ichigo, because he looks like he has enough testosterone and exactly for the reason that he isn't effeminate. While Byakuya's fans would mostly comprise the female part of the audience, who are attracted to his more-than-handsome looks and general "girly" stuff associated with him (like petals).

The point is: it's not as straight-forward as you are putting it. A series can have different aspects that appeal to different audiences, while still maintaining their fanbase with a specific, male or female, audience. Or it can mix both in equal proportion, inducing it with multi-gender appeal.

Take something like "Fist of the North Star" as a another example. See any bishounen there? See any elements that appeal to girls? I don't, because that show is not trying to attract a female audience, concentrating only on a male one. That's pure shounen, while BLEACH is a mixed show.

Likewise, having sci-fi in a series doesn't mean you are specifically trying to attract a male audience, or that it is supposed to appeal to a male audience. Whether or not guys enjoy it is inconsequencial.

Yes it is! That, my friend, is the single most important thing you will learn about marketing. THE main principle of marketing states that marketing concerns itself with identifying a consumer of a product (an anime show) and then sattisfying that consumers need (like the need for "bishounen", or the need for "hard SF plot").

This is what market segmentation is all about. The whole reasons why demographic-based genres like shounen, shoujo, seinen, jousei exist is to create an illusory segment in the market made up entirely of, for example, high school girls. Then you find out what those high school girls generally like and do it for them. They like an anime with bishounen? Create an anime with bishounen and target it exactly toward that market.

In our case we have:

1) a seinen audience. That audience likes sci-fi. So you create a show with sci-fi targeted at that specific audience.

2) a jousei audience. That audience likes pretty boys and mature love. So you create a show with pretty boys and mature love targeted at that specific audience.

3) Then you combine these two premises in a single package, and voila, you have "Jyu-Oh-Sei".

That's how a business operates. Creative people (director, screenwriter, storyboarder) might think: "Oh, let's make a cool anime everyone will love". Business people (producers, TV station, venture capital firms) think: "OK, what kind of anime would reach the most people, would be most marketable and would produce the biggest sales of merchandise?". And since business people pay the creative people, that's usually how it starts.

Well, business people also try to keep creative people in the dark about these things, because creative people have their "creative process" and they hate the idea of selling-out, but behind the scenes, that's the way it's done usually.

Take Banana Fish for example, which is a shoujo manga about long, drawn out gang wars with rough, almost Otomo-ish art. While it proved popular with both genders, it was still a girl's manga aimed at girls. There is nothing wrong with guys reading and enjoying it, but that doesn't make them the target audience.

A counter-example! Escaflowne manga. One targeted at boys, one targeted at girls. Completely different atmospheres, character designs, plot desicions. Why? Market segmentation.

[gumbaloom]

Let's stop arguing about what type of show it is :|.

Personally I think it's gonna be an awesome show. Sorta like Madmax on a futuristic planet with every man for themself.

The 2 brothers look as though they might fight each other as well if the op is right. Oh yeah and Tofusensei thinks the OP REALLY sucks. Sorta like a bad backstreet boys song

-gumbaloom

[musouka]

Originally Posted by MrProphet

The point is: it's not as straight-forward as you are putting it. A series can have different aspects that appeal to different audiences, while still maintaining their fanbase with a specific, male or female, audience. Or it can mix both in equal proportion, inducing it with multi-gender appeal.

I don't disagree in general theory, but what I'm saying is that even if there are some things that appeal to a different audience, that doesn't mean the series as a whole is aimed at them. Juuousei isn't a josei/seinen hybrid, it's a shoujo series that also happens to have a wider appeal. BLEACH isn't a shoujo/shounen hybrid, it's a shounen show that has some appealing aspects to girls.

Are these aspects purposeful? I think in some cases they are, but generally, I think you see more of them in shounen/seinen works than you do shoujo, and that's mainly because shounen is more widely read in general, regardless of gender. In that respect, it makes more sense to me for a shounen work to be "I'll throw a pretty boy here for the ladies reading my stuff" than a shoujo work to be "I'll throw in [insert something guys would like here] because there are just tons of guys scrambling to buy the next LaLa magazine!" (hint: there aren't)

And you still haven't given me a reason that sci-fi would specifically be aimed at guys instead of girls beyond a nebulous "guys like sci-fi better". I'm sorry, but I don't think "adding sci-fi = aiming at guys".

Originally Posted by MrProphet

One targeted at boys, one targeted at girls. Completely different atmospheres, character designs, plot desicions. Why? Market segmentation.

That might have something to do with the fact that the shounen version of Escaflowne was just given a basic, rough outline before the anime started to work from...

[MrProphet]

Originally Posted by musouka

And you still haven't given me a reason that sci-fi would specifically be aimed at guys instead of girls beyond a nebulous "guys like sci-fi better". I'm sorry, but I don't think "adding sci-fi = aiming at guys".

Since men like sci-fi better than women (as the study in the link demonstrated), then it would only be logical that "adding sci-fi = aiming at guys". How is that nebulous?

And I might have argeed that Jyu-Oh-Sei is a jousei show, but I definitely do not argee that it's shoujo. It looks a bit too smart for the standard mid-teenage girls (who are the main partakers in shoujo).

Are you going to say that Parakiss is also shoujo?

That might have something to do with the fact that the shounen version of Escaflowne was just given a basic, rough outline before the anime started to work from..

Yes, but same exact thing didn't prevent Yoshiyuki Sadamoto from doing his own, completely different version of NGE in manga form. So, the argument doesn't cut it.

Originally Posted by gumbaloom

The 2 brothers look as though they might fight each other as well if the op is right.

The OP is rather vague on this. Since they are twins, it's hard to say which one becomes the wild-warrior-type, and which becomes that Dr.Muraki-wannabe. 8) I am betting - Thor for wild-warrior, Rai for Muraki-lookalike. 8)

Spoiler:

Rai?


Thor?

[musouka]

Originally Posted by MrProphet

Since men like sci-fi better than women (as the study in the link demonstrated), then it would only be logical that "adding sci-fi = aiming at guys"? How is that nebulous?

But that study had nothing to do with sci-fi, it was what women would want to do in VR. It didn't say one way or the other that women disliked sci-fi fiction.

Originally Posted by MrProphet

And I might have argeed that Jyu-Oh-Sei is a jousei show, but I definitely do not argee that it's shoujo. It looks a bit too smart for the standard mid-teenage girls (who are the main partakers in shoujo).

You might not want to agree, but it IS aimed at teenage girls. Bottom line. (You know, they do like more than smutty romance, believe it or not) But like I said, LaLa skews towards the older side of the spectrum.

This argument is really strange. Are you going to claim shoujo horror isn't shoujo because traditionally guys seem to like horror more than girls do?

Originally Posted by MrProphet

Are you going to say that Parakiss is also shoujo?

Sure. Mainly because it is. (Actually, since it was serialized in a fashion mag, it's probably on the edge) I think you are making the mistake of assuming that shoujo/josei (which really should be "ladies" but let's not quibble) is divided by how mature and serious the plot is. That's not the case at all.

[MrProphet]

Originally Posted by musouka

But that study had nothing to do with sci-fi, it was what women would want to do in VR. It didn't say one way or the other that women disliked sci-fi fiction.

Oh, please, did you even RTFA? I doubt it.

You might not want to agree, but it IS aimed at teenage girls. Bottom line.

...

Sure. Mainly because it is. (Actually, since it was serialized in a fashion mag, it's probably on the edge) I think you are making the mistake of assuming that shoujo/josei (which really should be "ladies" but let's not quibble) is divided by how mature and serious the plot is. That's not the case at all.

Because the author told you? Because you construed brilliant arguments to prove this point? Because I should be smitten by your powers of persuasion? I know! Because it's "the bottom line". 8)

The real bottom line, though, is that I've been trying hard, writing now-seemigly pointless posts, trying to offer and explain my arguments, but I seem to be wrong because you just have a different opinion.

What a colossal waste of time...

[musouka]

Originally Posted by MrProphet

Oh, please, did you even RTFA? I doubt it.

I skimmed it, but if you can point out where it says "women don't read sci-fi", I'd appreciate it.

Originally Posted by MrProphet

Because the author told you? Because you construed brilliant arguments to prove this point? Because I should be smitten by your powers of persuasion? I know! Because it's "the bottom line". 8)

If it wasn't aimed at teenage girls, why would they serialize it in a magazine bought by teenage girls? If it is so strongly aimed at guys, why not serialize it in a popular seinen/shounen magazine, where it would get much more exposure?

Originally Posted by MrProphet

The real bottom line, though, is that I've been trying hard, writing now-seemigly pointless posts, trying to offer and explain my arguments, but I seem to be wrong because you just have a different opinion.

I don't think you've created bad arguments (on the contrary, I've enjoyed our discussion...actually, I've enjoyed all our discussions), but I think the actual classification of series is pretty rigid, to be honest. While Juuousei might not fit into the "shoujo" classification as you, personally, see it, that doesn't make it any less shoujo in regards to where it was published and what the primary audience is.

[MrProphet]

Originally Posted by musouka

I skimmed it, but if you can point out where it says "women don't read sci-fi", I'd appreciate it.

There is a chart about half-way though illustrative of the point that women prioritize sci-fi less than men as far as their entertainment is concerned (I never claimed that they "never" do it).

If it wasn't aimed at teenage girls, why would they serialize it in a magazine bought by teenage girls? If it is so strongly aimed at guys, why not serialize it in a popular seinen/shounen magazine, where it would get much more exposure?

Why are you so insistant on arguing points I never made? I am not saying that it's "strongly aimed at guys". I am saying that Jyu-Oh-Sei anime has elements that would be interesting to both men and women, meaning that it is not stricktly josei!

I don't think you've created bad arguments (on the contrary, I've enjoyed our discussion...actually, I've enjoyed all our discussions), but I think the actual classification of series is pretty rigid, to be honest. While Juuousei might not fit into the "shoujo" classification as you, personally, see it, that doesn't make it any less shoujo in regards to where it was published and what the primary audience is.

*SIGH*

Listen, I don't want to argue anymore, because I feel like I am going in circles. Pretty much all of what I am trying to say I've already stated.

Spoiler for Long and Final say on the matter:

That being said, all I want to point out is that this is how businesses operate. They need to make rigid structures, then need to make approximations in order to strategize. It's highly theoretical and only strives to achieve a semblance of understanding.

I am not a girl, I am not Japanese, I am not 16 years old, yet I do enjoy shoujo. I do not fit the core audience that the producer has targeted this show at because I am a real person, while a producer is just building an approximation model. That's all it is: a model. It doesn't have to correspond to reality on all levels, it only has to be slightly similar to reality (or else the show fails financially).

You, as I understand your position, stick to your argument that Jyu-Oh-Sei is shoujo because you want it to be shoujo. That's not what the term is about. Those "genre terms" are not about reality. They are about producers wanting to shape reality, presenting a show in a way that makes the show something they want it to become.

And based on episode 1, it is clear to me that they want this show to appeal to both men and women because they've included major thematical and visual elements corresponding to each of the demographics' preferences. That's what makes this a seinen/jousei hybrid. Not what we want this to be, but what the producer wants this to be.

Hell, I don't even care about making this point anymore. Screw it, this is just ridiculously long and off-topic...

PS: Some things made in jest should just freaking stay there.