Aldnoah.Zero - Episode 21 Discussion / Poll

[Oboro]

Originally Posted by Irenesharda

Slaine didn't start this war.

but he continues it, slaine is at the command of the martian forces and didn't stop it, asseylum knows well the nonsense and the lousy prestest from the martians forces driven by the hatred and feed by Saaz murder expedient to start this war.

Slaine knows it was and expedient and who do it, Asseylum obv knows it was an expedient because she is alive, maybe she don't knows the name of the perpetrator, but it realy don't care at this point.

Do you really belived that Asseylum can forgive Slaine while you know from the whole first cour what she thinks about this war? Really?

Isn't it a reason to be anger with Slaine? when she fought side by side with the terrans that keep herself alive while trying to show to the martians ppl that she was alive and the expedient to start this war was the fake assassination? Done from a man who only seek for vengeance against the earth and the royal family?

[Irenesharda]

Originally Posted by monster

I think you're talking about two different things now. The why for the war is because of the problem with Mars. The why for Slaine is different, although related. But like I said, all of that can be discussed afterward once a ceasefire is achieved. You don't talk about the why while people are busy fighting and dying in the battlefields.

I think my thoughts kind of morphed down a larger path. Well, I'm thinking that if you know why, then you can actually create a ceasefire that can actually means something. It's like when Inaho goes out into the field and he's trying to figure out how the kataphrackts do what they do. If you don't know how they work, then you'll just be like the idiots in charge of the UFE and just keep sending soldiers at them over and over again, and accomplish nothing. I'm thinking that maybe she should come at this war with more than just a "let's stop all hostilities", maybe she should look into why most of her counts seem happy to go to war, and then build a strategy out of that.

Sure, although I think, given the context and what they talked about, it's something along the line that Slaine is planning something that Asseylum may not agree with.

I like Lemrina, but I don't trust her that much either.

Originally Posted by Oboro

but he continues it, ans asseylum well knows the nonsense on a lousy prestest on the terrans from the martians forces.


Is't it a reason to be anger with Slaine? when she fought side by side with the terrans that keep herself alive while trying to show to the martians that she was alive and the expedient tos tart this war was the fake assassination? Done from a man who only seek for vbngeance against the earth and the royal family?

He's honestly a very small piece of the war at large, he hasn't been in charge that long, and the counts were happy to continue hostilities even before that. The counts have been itching to go to war for years before this one even started. I think if Asseylum really wants the war to stop for good, you need to be able to search for the source of the trouble at its root, and not simply what's been going on in the short term of right now. From that, she can find a workable strategy to end the fight for the long term, and not just a shaky ceasefire that could be broken at any moment.

[monster]

Originally Posted by Irenesharda

I think my thoughts kind of morphed down a larger path. Well, I'm thinking that if you know why, then you can actually create a ceasefire that can actually means something. It's like when Inaho goes out into the field and he's trying to figure out how the kataphrackts do what they do. If you don't know how they work, then you'll just be like the idiots in charge of the UFE and just keep sending soldiers at them over and over again, and accomplish nothing. I'm thinking that maybe she should come at this war with more than just a "let's stop all hostilities", maybe she should look into why most of her counts seem happy to go to war, and then build a strategy out of that.

Well, to use your example, the reason why Inaho needs to go into the field is because he is trying to stop them using violence, so he needs to know how to defeat them in battle. With Asseylum, she was trying to negotiate peacefully. So a ceasefire is better for her to give her time to find out everything from Slaine and the other counts and figure out how best to deal with the problem.

I like Lemrina, but I don't trust her that much either.

Yeah, I think she is trying to get at Slaine for lying to her. It doesn't mean she doesn't still hold a grudge against the royal family.

[Sixth]

Originally Posted by endarion88

that's why i don't bother discuss about slain actions anymore, they will justify and shugarcoat everything even if he where to drop a nuclear on a orphanage

Indeed. And if Slaine really dropped a nuclear on a orphanage, I'll bet that their justification would be something like: "Slaine is a king of the universe. He can do whatever he wants." or "Those orphanage death will save many....in future...maybe LOL".

[Narumi]

Originally Posted by Benigmatica

Hmm, I'm confused about the part where Princess Lemrina is about to shoot Princess Asseylum. Supposedly, Lemrina would kill his half-sister out of spite, but it was found out that they work together to deduce Slaine's objective where both of them got detained.

It would be better if there would be a nice transition from the moment those two sisters met.

It's been shown at least twice in this season now that Lemrina doesn't really hate her sister, including the time when she pretended to end Asseylum's life by turning off her vital monitors. She's just frustrated with her situation in life and always seemingly being in her sister's shadow, but even then it's apparently she still has some feelings for her.

If she wasn't going to end Asseylum in the beginning, there's no reason why she'd suddenly go over and shoot her now (too messy anyway). Especially now that the possible secondary benefit of being the sole appeal to Slaine has completely gone out the window.

[Oboro]

Originally Posted by Irenesharda

He's honestly a very small piece of the war at large, he hasn't been in charge that long, and the counts were happy to continue hostilities even before that. The counts have been itching to go to war for years before this one even started. I think if Asseylum really wants the war to stop for good, you need to be able to search for the source of the trouble at its root, and not simply what's been going on in the short term of right now. From that, she can find a workable strategy to end the fight for the long term, and not just a shaky ceasefire that could be broken at any moment.

cmon, quibbling about the time it lasts?
he actively fought the terrans and under Saaz, the one who do the expedient (ovb we don't know is she awarem but really means at this point?) for at least 2 years.

the roots?
no resources on mars
better tecnology on mars for military purpose.
Anacronist feudal system on mars, that feed the hate against the terrans.

can you see a solution like i do?
Share the technologies for the resouces, better relationship from the earth and mars and the hate will deplete time by time? (that is my personal guess for the ending scenario btw)

wasn't the Asseylum trip in the first episode a diplomatic trip?

those are the problems, a war wasn't necessary at all, the war start at first for a man who seek vengeance (for his girlfriend too) and then it continues for the useless crusade of a Ntr'ed emo kid, who didn't think that if you love someone you need to treat her like a person with her free will, not impose yours in a birdcage (cit.). that is why as @arya well said in some thread and in the spoiler and speculation one,if will ever be a romance in this show, inaoh starts in better position because he always treat "seylum" like a person,with inaoh she was had a free will and he do her choices and inaoh respect both

Originally Posted by Narumi

It's been shown at least twice in this season now that Lemrina doesn't really hate her sister, including the time when she pretended to end Asseylum's life by turning off her vital monitors. She's just frustrated with her situation in life and always seemingly being in her sister's shadow, but even then it's apparently she still has some feelings for her.

If she wasn't going to end Asseylum in the beginning, there's no reason why she'd suddenly go over and shoot her now (too messy anyway). Especially now that the possible secondary benefit of being the sole appeal to Slaine has completely gone out the window.

yup, and when Slaine said Lemrina about Asseylum going worse, she was worried if her turning off some of the machines, was the reason of her condition get worse

[John117xCortana]

Slain's logic of why wars are fought......it's not exactly wrong but.....for some reason it feels like an inferior alternative compared to Inaho's.

[Irenesharda]

Originally Posted by monster

Well, to use your example, the reason why Inaho needs to go into the field is because he is trying to stop them using violence, so he needs to know how to defeat them in battle. With Asseylum, she was trying to negotiate peacefully. So a ceasefire is better for her to give her time to find out everything from Slaine and the other counts and figure out how best to deal with the problem.

Well, I mean, even negotiators and ambassadors need to know what's going on and have an idea of the atmosphere before they sit down for peace talks. They need to have a strategy and advisors just as much as war generals do.

Originally Posted by Oboro

cmon, quibbling about the time it lasts?
he actively fought the terrans and under Saaz, the one who do the expedient (ovb we don't knows is she know the who was) for at least 2 years.

the roots?
no resources on mars
better tecnology on mars for military purpose.
Anacronist feudal system on mars, that feed the hate against the terrans.

can you see a solution like i do?
Share the technologies for the resouces, better relationship from the earth and mars and the the hate will deplete? (that is my personal guess for the ending btw)

wasn't the Aseeylum trip in the first episode a diplomatic trip?

those are the problems, a war wasn't necessary at all, the war start at first for a man who seek vengeance (for his girlfriend too) and then it continues for the useless crusade of a Ntr'ed emo kid, who didn't think that if you love someone you need to treat her like a person with her free will, not impose yours in a birdcage (cit.).

Asseylum's first trip was regarding peace talks, yes. But there is a debate between us on how really prepared she was for such a thing. I, myself don't think she was prepared, considering that she didn't know why the war was going on in the first place, and she need Rayet to tell her what was really going on with the lower classes of Mars. However, others may disagree.

However, this tension and hostility between Mars and Earth has been going on since before Asseylum, Slaine, or Inaho have been alive. I think that if Asseylum doesn't want another war to break out again in 10 more years time, she needs to have a strategy on how to deal with what's going on. Your idea of share technology for resources is a good one, (though the UFE seem to hate Aldnoah and anything that has to do with it, as Darzana was fuming about this episode, so I don't know how far that'll go) though she'll have to find a way to tell her people so that the nobles won't just shoot her down.

[monster]

Originally Posted by Irenesharda

Well, I mean, even negotiators and ambassadors need to know what's going on and have an idea of the atmosphere before they sit down for peace talks. They need to have a strategy and advisors just as much as war generals do.

That is true, but that comes afterward. Asseylum is just ordering a ceasefire, not a peace talk yet.

[karice67]

Originally Posted by IllegalGoddess

And now, quote from the timeline (promotional materials):

>Mars, being a planet with few readily useable resources and livable environments, was extremely difficult to develop. This was well understood by the Mars Immigration Program. However, they never instructed or informed the prospected colonists on how exactly and by what means, were the colonists supposed to overcome these difficulties. The colonists, who were at first idealistic about settling on the new world for humanity, had to endure and overcome extreme hazardous and inhospitable conditions which they were never prepared for nor could even imagined. Professor Rayregalia repeatedly and desperately informed the Mars Immigration Program about the dire situations of the settlers, in hope of receiving more assistance from the home planet, all to no avail. This was a major factor that eventually led to the popular armed uprising.

Soon Rayregalia declares Mars's independence. Tension rises and eventually becomes a full-blown war. (The one from the flashbacks).

No side is truly innocent. It was a dirty and messy political game from the start.

NB: Book 2 of ArchiveZ explains the context of all the materials provided before the show started (A/Z Reports 001 through 008).

It explains that this information was from the timeline annotated by Wolf Areash as part of his spying mission on Earth (it was part of Report 005).

In other words, the original timeline (Tx/005-2 on the website) is part of the story as told by the Earth side, and the additions on the annotated timeline give part of the story as told by the Vers side.

We know that the United Earth Govt twisted the story on the Earth side to portray themselves as the victims. So, who twisted the story on the Vers side to portray themselves as the victims? And why did they want to do that?

After all, if things were that bad on Vers, why didn't the colonists just return to Earth? The hypergate was still working at that time, no?

I've got my own answer, but I'll just leave these questions here for you all to ponder.

[FrejaOne]

Originally Posted by Oboro

the useless crusade of a Ntr'ed emo kid, who didn't think that if you love someone you need to treat her like a person with her free will, not impose yours in a birdcage (cit.).

It wouldn't have helped him in his personal pursuit anyway.

Asseylum is not in love with him. I don't even think she particularly cares for him. She just sort of liked him and treated him well because she's a nice person and he talked about interesting things.

That's the whole thing about friendzone/NTR, you can be a perfect person and you still won't get the girl because you can't win the game which no one invited you to play to begin with.

That's not an excuse for Slaine btw but it adds some inner logic to his motivations. Even a memory-less Asseylum, a bird in a cage, cannot love him, and he finally realizes it at some point. You can put a bird in a cage but you can't make it stop loving the sky.

[blakstealth]

Controlling all the Kataphraktoi in the area to attack every single duplicate at the same time was a pretty cool move, but I didn't quite understand how that one scene of tracer rounds spreading wide throughout the area from one location works, though.

[Oboro]

Originally Posted by Irenesharda

Asseylum's first trip was regarding peace talks, yes. But there is a debate between us on how really prepared she was for such a thing. I, myself don't think she was prepared, considering that she didn't know why the war was going on in the first place, and she need Rayet to tell her what was really going on with the lower classes of Mars. However, others may disagree.

we really can't argue if she was prepared or not, it is another ground play, the fanfiction or fanwank, we need to stay close to the show or canon materials, you can have feeling and tastes ofc, but she came to the earth for diplomatic matters. And having diplomatic relations may lead to a solution.

However, this tension and hostility between Mars and Earth has been going on since before Asseylum, Slaine, or Inaho have been alive. I think that if Asseylum doesn't want another war to break out again in 10 more years time, she needs to have a strategy on how to deal with what's going on.

again we can talk only about the show, was this war start from a lousy expedient from a man who seek vengeance and continued by Slaine "crusade"? this is my point
we really don't know is more war could happen in the future and stuff.

those are the points: what could happen is fanwanking or fanfiction, but what really happened IS the show we see.

edit: i don't wanna be rude ofc but staying on the show is the only way to don't "write" another story with our tastes.

[FrejaOne]

Originally Posted by monster

A ceasefire doesn't mean all of that. In fact, they already had a long ceasefire before..

I bet the previous ceasefire was a result of some negotiations. She probably doesn't even know the current battlefront situation--Lemrina isn't likely to be aware of that.

Come on, you can tell me I'm an Asseylum hater, but that wasn't even smart.
If Slaine is your friend and you assume he loves you, then talk to him, reason with him, appeal to his emotions.
If Slaine is your enemy and you are ready to shoot him, then forget about ceasefire for a second--make sure you are in control. Like maybe tie him to a chair and stop a chance of comminications with his people. Then ask Lemrina to cover for you and interrogate him about the current situation.
Or deceive him, pretend to agree with him, pretend to like him, find out more about the situation, find out what your current opportunities are.

Originally Posted by monster

None of that is as important as the fact that that there is a war going on that Slaine is escalating.

And that war has begun before Slaine, is bigger than Slaine and won't be stopped so easily.

Slaine could actually force Lemrina into a game now: intentionally break her Asseylum disguise in front of some Knights during a conference in order to undermine Asseylum's influence. So everyone assumes Lemrina tricked Slaine because she was power-hungry. Then everyone will assume Asseylum is fake. It can be proven wrong, but it would take time and there would be a confusion anyway.

Impulsive action is only good when you've got a lot of raw power.

[monster]

Originally Posted by blakstealth

Controlling all the Kataphraktoi in the area to attack every single duplicate at the same time was a pretty cool move, but I didn't quite understand how that one scene of tracer rounds spreading wide throughout the area from one location works, though.

I think that's showing the connection from Inaho to all of his fellow soldiers.

[Irenesharda]

Originally Posted by Oboro

again we can talk only about the show, was this war start from a lousy expedient from a man who seek vengeance and continued by Slaine?

those are the points what could happen is fanwanking or fanfiction, but what really happened is the show we see.

Um, we know for a fact that there were hostilities that occurred before this present war. It's how Heaven's Fall happened after all. Also, Cruhteo said that they've been waiting for the chance to take what they feel is rightly theirs, for as long as they've been in orbit around the planet since the first war.

Now, most of the blame for these sentiments seems to be at the feet of Gilzera, and I'll lay them at the feet of Rayregalia too, since he didn't seem to do much about these national sentiments after his son's death either.

So, how can Asseylum heal all the damage that her father did? Well, it's going to take a lot of time and effort, and way more than simple speeches and orders. It's going to take years.

[monster]

Originally Posted by IllegalGoddess

I bet the previous ceasefire was a result of some negotiations. She probably doesn't even know the current battlefront situation--Lemrina isn't likely to be aware of that.

Come on, you can tell me I'm an Asseylum hater, but that wasn't even smart.
If Slaine is your friend and you assume he loves you, then talk to him, reason with him, appeal to his emotions.
If Slaine is your enemy and you are ready to shoot him, then forget about ceasefire for a second--make sure you are in control. Like maybe tie him to a chair and stop a chance of comminications with his people. Then ask Lemrina to cover for you and interrogate him about the current situation.
Or deceive him, pretend to agree with him, pretend to like him, find out more about the situation, find out what your current opportunities are.

It doesn't matter either way because Slaine outsmarted them all by having guards ready at his disposal.

And that war has begun before Slaine, is bigger than Slaine and won't be stopped so easily.

Which is all the more reason why he is not her first priority.

[Oboro]

Originally Posted by Irenesharda

Um, we know for a fact that there were hostilities that occurred before this present war. It's how Heaven's Fall happened after all. Also, Cruhteo said that they've been waiting for the chance to take when they feel is rightly theirs, for as long as they've been in orbit around the planet since the first war.

Now, most of the blame for these sentiments seems to be at the feet of Gilzera, and I'll lay them at the feet of Rayregalia too, since he didn't seem to do much about these national sentiments after his son's death either.

So, how can Asseylum heal all the damage that her father did? Well, it's going to take a lot of time and effort, and way more than simple speeches and orders. It's going to take years.

ok don't mind, my answer was a different one and based ON the story not on what could be, really are we talking about the asseylum diplomatic preparation? or about what could happen in 10 years from now?
btw this don't legitimate Slaine behaviour that in fact he's the one who contiues the war, so Asseylum ( like magneto) was right to be upset, that was my point before that it last few times and that he did't start the war argumen/excuses.

Really, again, i don't wanna be rude but we see a show the "what if universe", so everything don't come from the author hands, does't matter anything to me i'm a viewer not a writer, so the speculation about how asseylum was in diplomatic preparation, or what could happen in 10 years from now, it isn't Adlnoah.zero, so i don't care.

[FrejaOne]

Originally Posted by karice67

After all, if things were that bad on Vers, why didn't the colonists just return to Earth? The hypergate was still working at that time, no?[/B]

I've got my own answer, but I'll just leave these questions here for you all to ponder.

Two answers, actually: they either didn't want to--or they couldn't. There is no reason to assume they were welcomed or allowed to go back.

Originally Posted by monster

It doesn't matter either way because Slaine outsmarted them all by having guards ready at his disposal.

He didn't really have a reason to suspect Lemrina wasn't herself (having the guards stand at ready for that). I'll admit to not remembering precisely but it seems he simply called for them while taking the gun from Asseylum.

Originally Posted by monster

Which is all the more reason why he is not her first priority.

It was always obvious from the story that he wasn't. When she talked to Inaho about him, there was no longing or anything like that, he was just a friendly person left behind. I don't think even Slaine is delusional enough to think he's more for her than that.

But the curious thing is--her screaming his name like thirty times when she was waking up kind of contradicts everything else. She sounded like a desperate lover, and yet everything else she does shows that's not true. What was the purpose of that little scene? Fanservice?

[karice67]

Originally Posted by IllegalGoddess

Two answers, actually: they either didn't want to--or they couldn't. There is no reason to assume they were welcomed or allowed to go back.

You need to extend the line of questioning further. Why would they not be allowed to go back? Who would have control over such a decision? And why do they have control?

It'll be largely speculation, but if you sit down to think of the logistics of space travel and why people might want to go to space, and most importantly, who gets to go and how much it probably cost them, it's not quite as simple as some of you seem to think.