One Piece - Chapter 597 (manga)

[morbosfist]

Ace already had perfect control of his powers, enough to make an island-engulfing ball of flame. His flames never get hotter because he is the fuel source. The flames are manifesting from him.

[james0246]

^Actually Ace did not have perfect control of his powers. Crocodile emphasized that true mastery of a Logia allows for a permanent intangibility in the face of the unknown. Specifically, you cannot be surprised any more. Smoker and Ace were both surprised by Luffy during the initial chapters of the Alabasta Arc, and consequently were both hurt by his sudden comedic entrance/attack. With Crocodile, though, he emphasized that it is impossible to attack a Logia user in this way once they had attained true mastery of their fruit.

[morbosfist]

Auger got the drop on him and didn't cause damage. Assuming he didn't have it down at the time of Smoker, he did have it down by his fight with Blackbeard.

[Kallen4life]

Auger got the drop on him and didn't cause damage.

I think he certainly saw that one coming - he was long in enemy territory by then .. besides he has been shown to be able to catch/dodge bullets (alabasta desert arc where that guy with the kids was after him)

can't say about his level of mastery compared to Croc's though



Ace = fire, Aokiji = ice .. plain as that .. no blue shifts, no plasma, no 0K - that's too much even for OP .. and Akainus fruit is stronger (in 1v1) then both of them, but that's ok, Akainu is going to one of the main antagonists in the '2-nd part' of OP, he needs that power

[John D.]

Originally Posted by Kallen4life

you must be joking .. Akainu evaporates ice, not melts

We also saw Whitebeard stab a piece of Akainu's magma and turn it into solid rock by simply blowing at it, do you likewise presume that Whitebeard could have done the same to Akainu himself (turn him into solid rock by blowing at him)?

Akainu evaporated a block of ice, which is well and good, but we can't take that as conclusive proof that he would be able to do the same to Aokiji, since the block of ice was just a block of ice - it wasn't ice that was actively maintained by Aokiji's chilling power.

Originally Posted by Kallen4life

I srsly doubt Aokiji produces -2XX C temperatures - it's just plain ice, like Ace = plain fire (not some omgwtf plasma)

Aokiji's Devil Fruit is Hie Hie no Mi, which means the Chilly-Chilly fruit. Hence, his powers isn't strictly ice, but the power to lower temperature and turn stuff into ice.

Regardless, Aokiji, in my opinion, has been the most impressive character in terms of Devil Fruit power. For example, when first introduced, he froze dozens of square miles of the sea into solid ice almost instantly.

Originally Posted by Kallen4life

they were shown to be equals for a reason .. fire = ice, as well as fire = smoke .. lava > fire and I assume lava > ice

When were Aokiji and Ace shown to be equal? They had a one-panel clash, nothing more - not even off screen.

Originally Posted by Kallen4life

I have no doubt that Akainu > Aokiji simply because of his fruit (also Akainu withstood 2 quakes from WB - that's BB level endurance) .. Akainu will be a primary villain, he needs to be a serious threat .. that said - he just burns (pretty much pure offence, one of the highest and deadliest DFs can offer) and that's all - Aokiji has much more variety, as was pointed out above .. so overall the DF's are equal

If Akainu is noticeable stronger than Aokiji, than I personally expect that to be attributed to a superior control of his fruit or because he is more skillful and stronger - not because Akainu's fruit is naturally more powerful than Aokiji's.

That being said, I think Aokiji's powers is more dangerous to face than Akainu's or Kizaru's, because while you can tank a magma fist or a laser, it's a bit harder to soldier on with a frozen body - even as a top tier (ala Jozu).

[Kallen4life]

We also saw Whitebeard stab a piece of Akainu's magma and turn it into solid rock by simply blowing at it, do you likewise presume that Whitebeard could have done the same to Akainu himself (turn him into solid rock by blowing at him)?

no, because Akainu constantly generates his element, whereas a molten rock is probably like a hot sausage to WB

Akainu evaporated a block of ice, which is well and good, but we can't take that as conclusive proof that he would be able to do the same to Aokiji

not conclusive and we will probably never know (since Aokiji & Akainu will probably never fight), but to me it's pretty certain that he can

Regardless, Aokiji, in my opinion, has been the most impressive character in terms of Devil Fruit power. For example, when first introduced, he froze dozens of square miles of the sea into solid ice almost instantly.

agreed

They had a one-panel clash

more than enough for me .. they both used strong attacks there and clashed equally .. moreover, it previously was established that fire = smoke, I don't see why it wouldn't be so for fire & ice

Akainu's fruit is naturally more powerful than Aokiji's.

if it is so for Ace's fruit, it's really hard for me to imagine how it isn't the same for Aokiji's .. lava melts/evaporates ice - that should be a fact by all accounts

while you can tank a magma fist

well .. Ace certainly couldn't tank it .. also probably the reason why BB & crew ran from Akainu .. WB could, but 1) he's the goddamn WB 2) he likely would've died later anyway from it (well, not from just it, but also all the other wounds) - getting a part of you head melted off is just too much


Kizaru's hits are like sword pierces .. but he can do a lot of them .. and of course that speed of his

Jozu was distracted long enough for Aokiji to do Ice Time on his arm .. I'm pretty sure the regular instant Ice Ball can be broken by regular force - be it just strength or shockwaves from WB's fruit .. pretty common theme - something strong is frozen in a block of ice (not the insides, just the outside) and then it's just shattered .. but not just anyone could do it - probably the likes of Garp, Sengoku, WB, Jozu (again - the Ice Ball, not Ice Time) .. or possibly armor-haki could help breaking it


but you're right about Ice Time - it's really dangerous, just like Croc's Death Touch .. pretty much no way to guard or counter (except having flame powers .. I'm reasonably sure both Ace & Akainu could thaw themselves out of Ice Time .. just speculation of course) and the only option is to avoid and the only 'weakness' is that Aokiji has to personally touch the opponent + it takes a few seconds at least to work

[John D.]

Originally Posted by Kallen4life

no, because Akainu constantly generates his element, whereas a molten rock is probably like a hot sausage to WB

Which is exactly why I don't think you should assume that Akainu can evaporate Aokiji just because he can evaporate ice; Aokiji constantly generates cold, while the ice block was just ice.

Originally Posted by Kallen4life

more than enough for me .. they both used strong attacks there and clashed equally .. moreover, it previously was established that fire = smoke, I don't see why it wouldn't be so for fire & ice

Smoker's and Ace's clash was just a one-panel clash as well, and it was only established in the anime that they can't harm each other through their logia powers. But even so, smoke and fire affect each other differently compared to fire and ice, since ice/low temperature can put out a fire, and fire can melt ice.
Consequently, if Ace and Aokiji were unable to overpower each others element in a one panel clash, I expect it either was because they were equally powerful with their Devil Fruits, or because the difference in Devil Fruit strength wasn't significant enough to have an impact so quickly (which I believe).

Originally Posted by Kallen4life

if it is so for Ace's fruit, it's really hard for me to imagine how it isn't the same for Aokiji's .. lava melts/evaporates ice - that should be a fact by all accounts

Sure, but it's equally true that lava turns to rock eventually as it's temperature decreases. It depends if the cold or the heat of the lava is the strongest, and I personally think Aokiji and Akainu are equally (or at least very close) powerful with their respective Devil Fruit powers.

Originally Posted by Kallen4life

well .. Ace certainly couldn't tank it .. also probably the reason why BB & crew ran from Akainu .. WB could, but 1) he's the goddamn WB 2) he likely would've died later anyway from it (well, not from just it, but also all the other wounds) - getting a part of you head melted off is just too much

I said that you can tank it, which doesn't necessarily mean that everyone can tank it. For example, Marco could tank and heal magma fists, but I'm not sure he'd tank and be able to heal from Ice Age as easily (if at all).

[ShadowKiko]

Originally Posted by John D.

Regardless, Aokiji, in my opinion, has been the most impressive character in terms of Devil Fruit power. For example, when first introduced, he froze dozens of square miles of the sea into solid ice almost instantly.

Indeed... plus he rides a bike though the ocean... and Rayleigh swims through the calm belt... damn... ships are overrated!

[Blackbeard D. Kuma]

Originally Posted by Kallen4life

they were shown to be equals for a reason .. fire = ice, as well as fire = smoke .. lava > fire and I assume lava > ice

A one-panel clash is not enough to state that the combatants in question are equal. By your logic, we can say that Vista is Mihawk's equal or that Croc is Doflamingo's equal, given that they had one-panel clashes as well. Do you honestly believe that ?

Frankly, Ace is quite inferior to all of the admirals. In terms of battle experience and DF mastery, the admirals have Ace beat by a decent margin. Just because Ace's fire may be somewhat effective against Aokiji's ice, it doesn't automatically mean he would fight equally with said admiral in a prolonged fight. Aokiji is amongst the elites; Ace isn't. DF match-up is only going to do so much for Ace. We also have to account for haki. VA's and above can all use haki, whereas Ace never showed himself adept at using it.

[Kallen4life]

I was talking ONLY about DF's

they clashed and Aces fire was equal to Aokijis ice

who of the 2 users would win in a 1v1 fight is an entire matter altogether


and it was used to sum up my 'logic' : ice = fire + lava > fire = lava > ice .. although lava > ice should be a plain fact (as opposed to lava > fire), so I'm not even sure why we're having this discussion

it's irrelevant anyway

even if Akainu can burn through Aokijis insides like he did with Ace (which I believe he absolutely can .. that was the original point) - it doesn't mean he'd get the chance to do so if they fought

Frankly, Ace is quite inferior to all of the admirals.

agreed .. Ace kinda got the worf effect

[John D.]

Originally Posted by Kallen4life

they clashed and Aces fire was equal to Aokijis ice

Taking their clash as proof that Ace's fire power is as strong as Aokiji's chilling power would be similar to assuming Crocodile's strength, speed and hand-to-hand skills is equal to Mihawk's and Doflamingo's since he matched them equally in his one-panel clashes with them.

Originally Posted by Kallen4life

even if Akainu can burn through Aokijis insides like he did with Ace (which I believe he absolutely can .. that was the original point) - it doesn't mean he'd get the chance to do so if they fought

There is a distinct difference between Ace and Aokiji though; Ace had no way (outside of potential Armored Haki) to negate Akainu's magma, while Aokiji, on the other hand, has the perfect tool to deal with magma with his freezing power.

That being said, I think a fight between Aokiji and Akainu would be decided by individual attributes (e.g. physical prowess, Haki aptitude, martial skill, Devil Fruit proficiency etc.) rather than natural Devil Fruit superiority (like Akainu vs. Ace).

[Kallen4life]

Taking their clash as proof that Ace's fire power is as strong as Aokiji's chilling power

at the very least they're close in power .. but tbh to me it is .. unless Aokiji was holding out for some reason - his fruit wasn't 'cold enough' to freeze Aces fire - in that case it's OBVIOUSLY not cold enough to freeze the hotter Akainu

Crocodile's strength, speed and hand-to-hand skills is equal to Mihawk's and Doflamingo's since he matched them equally in his one-panel clashes with them.

1) Doflas case - Dofla himself was the one who matched Crocs hook with his foot - I assume Doflas foot strength is at least enough to match Crocs hook xD
2) Croc parried Mihawk with his hook - I merely assume that Croc is proficient enough to do that .. but since we know Mihawk is the greater swordsman - that's probably all he can do


the big difference here is that in the first case it's merely a matter of how hot/cold the fruit itself is capable of being .. in the second it's skill

Ace had no way (outside of potential Armored Haki) to negate Akainu's magma

well .. some people wonder how Ace got hurt at all, they don't buy the lava outburns/smothers etc. fire thing .. while it's perfectly understandable that lava goes through ice like knife through butter, evaporating ice in the process & there's nothing ice can do about it, because :
1) see above underlined statement
2) Akainu evaporated Aokiji's iceberg instantly .. now I assume the iceberg was made of mere ice - the same ice that Aokiji himself is made of .. while there is a difference in that Aokiji generates ice - the difference in power (humongous iceberg gone in a flash, no chance ) makes me reasonably sure the same would happen to Aokiji



tbh if Aokiji can freeze up Akainu or at least keep his lava attacks at bay the same as Aces (which shouldn't be the case because Aokijis and Aces fruits clashed equally, even if in one panel, whereas Akainus and Aces obviously didn't) then, in my eyes, that makes Aokiji kinda broken and overpowered - not even extreme heat can win against him (which should be ice-man's #1 enemy) + all those extra uses we discussed above


on a side-note - how low would the temperature have to be to freeze a constantly flowing stream of generic lava ?

[james0246]

Bah, nothing about a character's strength can be shown in one panel. That's like Blackbeard D. Kuma's claim that Jinbei was inordinately stronger than Luffy simply because it took one hit from Jinbei to lay out the half-dead Luffy. Nothing can be determined from one panel, or even one page. So, let's leave it at that.

[Kallen4life]

I was only taking about the fruits themselves though


Akainu said his fruit was superior to Ace's .. i say it's superior to Aokijis too (only in the event if they went head to head and tried to see who would outburn/outfreeze who)

[Prestige]

If Kizaru beats Aokiji, Aokiji beats Akainu and Akainu beats Kizaru who is strongest? These debates about who is 'strongest' are really silly because One Piece is quite rock/paper/scissors type of power levels...

[John D.]

Originally Posted by Kallen4life

at the very least they're close in power .. but tbh to me it is .. unless Aokiji was holding out for some reason - his fruit wasn't 'cold enough' to freeze Aces fire - in that case it's OBVIOUSLY not cold enough to freeze the hotter Akainu

It was only a one-panel clash, and not even more off-screen, ergo it's just as possible that Ace could only block one of Aokiji's attacks and the next one would overpower him.

That being said, I don't think Aokiji would be able to freeze Akainu, considering I think they are equally powerful in their respective Devil Fruit and would stalamate each other in that aspect.

Originally Posted by Kallen4life

the big difference here is that in the first case it's merely a matter of how hot/cold the fruit itself is capable of being .. in the second it's skill

The similarity between the clashes is that Ace could intercept and block Aokiji's attack with his fire, and Crocodile could intercept and block Mihawk's attacks with his hook. But while you take Ace's clash as proof that he is as strong with his Devil Fruit as Aokiji is, you don't assume that Crocodile is as strong with his hook as Mihawk is with his sword.

Originally Posted by Kallen4life

2) Akainu evaporated Aokiji's iceberg instantly .. now I assume the iceberg was made of mere ice - the same ice that Aokiji himself is made of .. while there is a difference in that Aokiji generates ice - the difference in power (humongous iceberg gone in a flash, no chance ) makes me reasonably sure the same would happen to Aokiji

I'm quite sure that there is more than an insignificant difference between Aokiji and an iceberg, considering Aokiji has incredible feats of chilling power that an iceberg wouldn't be able to replicate (and he is an Admiral to boot). And I'm reasonable certain that if Whitebeard was able to turn a chunk of magma (about the size of half Akainu) into rock by simply blowing at it, than Aokiji (whose chilling power should be hell of a lot more powerful than Whitebeard's breath) can probably do the same to a magma rock as big as the iceberg Jozu threw.

Originally Posted by Kallen4life

tbh if Aokiji can freeze up Akainu or at least keep his lava attacks at bay the same as Aces then, in my eyes, that makes Aokiji kinda broken and overpowered - not even extreme heat can win against him (which should be ice-man's #1 enemy)

If Akainu can overcome Aokiji's extreme coldness (which would be the enemy to his magma), wouldn't that make him broken and overpowered by your reasoning?

[Kallen4life]

That being said, I don't think Aokiji would be able to freeze Akainu, considering I think they are equally powerful in their respective Devil Fruit and would stalamate each other in that aspect.

the problem is if Aokiji can counter Akainu just like Ace, then Ace and Akainu should be equal as well, which they're not

this is of course based on the assumption that Aces and Aokijis fruits clash equally, which I firmly believe and which makes perfect sense


WB blowing on that magma rock and cooling it was really over the top I think, even for OP

than Aokiji (whose chilling power should be hell of a lot more powerful than Whitebeard's breath) can probably do the same to a magma rock as big as the iceberg Jozu threw.

I guess we'll never know .. however my original point was that if Akainu put his magma-fist through Aokijis stomach - Aokiji would suffer a similar fate to Ace .. because if he tried to freeze a magma rock - he could do so by overpowering it with mass quantites of ice eventually .. when he's up against Akainu that won't work, Akainu generates just as much and if it (the magma-fist) already is in his stomach - it's game over .. he'd have to make sure not to get hit, but that's another story

If Akainu can overcome Aokiji's extreme coldness (which would be the enemy to his magma), wouldn't that make him broken and overpowered by your reasoning?

nope, cause destroying stuff via burning is the only thing Akainu can do .. Aokijis fruit has other very useful applications as listed in this thread too .. heck those application alone make him very very valuable


and lava overpowering ice (equal quantities) makes much more sense to me then vice versa



I noticed we're starting to repeat ourselves

[paradox13]

he's not going to do a absolute zero attack.

One Piece physics is different from real life physics

[Blackbeard D. Kuma]

Originally Posted by james0246

Bah, nothing about a character's strength can be shown in one panel. That's like Blackbeard D. Kuma's claim that Jinbei was inordinately stronger than Luffy simply because it took one hit from Jinbei to lay out the half-dead Luffy. Nothing can be determined from one panel, or even one page. So, let's leave it at that.

In retrospect, I realize that I was wrong in making that claim . Nonetheless, Jimbei is obviously stronger than Luffy. Funny how you say Luffy was "half-dead", seeing as how Jimbei was still recovering from his injuries as well. Try to be impartial when making a point.

[Wargumm1i]

Its bin awhile, but is there a chapter next week?