Character Discussion - Lelouch

[Dann of Thursday]

Originally Posted by Koshimizu

It's been asked. FO said maybe they will show it sometime in the future.

Is it very important? Hmm, maybe he met someone?

[Aquaman OS]

Originally Posted by Revolutionist

Britannia has been shown to massacre innocent people left and right, including women and children. What's the excuse for killing babies, they might grow up to be terrorists? I don't quite understand how you can say people are imposing their own standard of good and evil when the line is pretty clear cut. Racism, Oppression, Militarism, etc are not good things. A racist, oppressive militaristic regime is not and can't be good in the eyes of any rational person. Brittania has been shown to massacre people needlessly. In the first episode of both seasons we see Britannian soldiers kill babies and women, along with a whole bunch of innocent people, some whom aren't even 11s for no reason whatsoever.

They can't be considered good, you just can't view them in that light unless they you only watch the anime through the eyes of the Britannian media, who portrays innocent women and children as terrorists.

People love Lulu because he's standing up for what's right, even if his motives are personal. He's willing to sacrifice himself and become evil itself if it means others might live in happiness. Basically the guy fights fire with fire, and we love him for that. Suzaku is just a tool, he fights for Britannia and that's all I need to hate the guy. I could go on about how he's a hypocrite brat that killed his own father (has to be mental). And please don't give that excuse "oh but he thought if he's father hadn't died Japan would have adopted a hard line strategy against the invasion and more people would've died", what the heck does a 10 year old know about the world, or anything for that matter?

I rest my case.

See that's where the line is blurry. Britannia isn't all bad and Japan isn't all good.

Britannia kills children and civilans and is generally evil, but there are good people there too. Lloyd Cecile the student council are generally good people who aren't racist in the least. Euphie might have been naive but she was also good. Cornelia Darlton, and Gulford have done some bad things in the name of their country but they are decent people at heart and are at least honorable and learned to become less racist as Suzaku changed their view on numbers.(and remember the reason the royal family was so harsh to Japan was because Lelouch and sis were supposedly killed there) Even Villeta proved to have nice personality once she forgot her miltary training and conditioning. The only outright evil person in Britannia is the Emperor who apparantly doesn't even give a damn about his own children.

Japan seems good in the show but the backstory proves they aren't quite as holy as they think they were. The were just oppressive to forigners prior to Britannan takeover like Britannia was to them now. Suzaku's stupid father was trying to play all three sides against each other with his Sakuradite and caused the invasion himself when he taunted all three sides that no one would dare attack Japan because all three sides would have to move in to get Sakuradite for themselves and it would all be destroyed. Then when the Emperor answered his foolish challenge Genbu decided he would rather sacrifice every person in his country rather than try to negotiate and save lives.

Suzaku killing his father was a GOOD thing. Everyone on every side admits this. Because they gave in they were able to preserve lives and since they still had military strength left were able to form a resitance and later on a rebellion. The Black Knights and Lelouch's forces would not be able to exist without Suzaku. Had Japan not surrendered all of its military would have been destroyed, most of it civilians killed and all of its resources destroyed or taken over. There would be no one to give Lelouch mecha, no Japanese rebels to fight for him, and heck Lelouch himself probably would have been killled during the invasion. So thank Suzaku, without him there would be no Black Knights years later.

The Black Knights themselves had decended into mob mentality in the finale. They attacked Villeta for no real reason (not exactly helping her view of Japanese) and Tamaki was gonna kill the council against orders. They were Lelouch's friends remember. If Nunally had been there as well then Lelouch's entire plan would have been ruined by one dumbass Japanese who couldn't control his racism. Suzaku was almost a damned hero standing up for them like he did. That whole scene through everything out of perspective with the heroic Black Knights about to engage in random murder and the evil Britannia swooping in heroicly.

Not that the Black Knights actions weren't unjustifed (though shooting up school children was a bit much Dumbass needs to calm the hell down or he's gonna destory Lelouch's plans someday.) but it certainly proves the Britannia=evil villians Japan=good heroes theory is not correct.

[KrimzonStriker]

Of course no ones perfect, that's not what this show is about, and a good thing it isn't. I choose the Black Knights based on my observations and by the results they achieve compared to the stagnate and decadent Britannia. I'm like Diethard I guess, I know when the ship is sinking and when a time for change is needed . And going by the Order of the Black Knights mantra I can find a harmonious setting were they to win while at the same time I compare how I would face constant danger under Britannia's system of rule. In this sense I'm also like Lelouch, I go with something that seems like it would achieve the best overall results.

[Var]

Originally Posted by Aquaman OS

See that's where the line is blurry. Britannia isn't all bad and Japan isn't all good.

Britannia kills children and civilans and is generally evil, but there are good people there too. Lloyd Cecile the student council are generally good people who aren't racist in the least. Euphie might have been naive but she was also good. Cornelia Darlton, and Gulford have done some bad things in the name of their country but they are decent people at heart and are at least honorable and learned to become less racist as Suzaku changed their view on numbers.(and remember the reason the royal family was so harsh to Japan was because Lelouch and sis were supposedly killed there) Even Villeta proved to have nice personality once she forgot her miltary training and conditioning. The only outright evil person in Britannia is the Emperor who apparantly doesn't even give a damn about his own children.

The Emperor gives a damn about his country and its future, not his children. He is not evil in anyway for that, if anything he is an amazing ruler. Countless countries have fallen by the wayside because a ruler couldn't pick a heir (spliting his kingdom) or from focusing to much on his own name and not the well-being of the kingdom. Rivalry's would spawn but unlike the Emperor's forced rivalry, they were uncontrolled and could easily rip the country apart upon correnation. At least for our Emperor Vi Britannia, when someone makes it to the top, the empire knows they've earned it. Its a succession not based on order or favorability but on sheer ability and promise. There is no evil about him, hell, from an advancement point of view, he is probably one of the greatest rulers.

And your comparison for Villeta is rather... strange. She is a completely different person once she loses all her training and conditioning. That is who she is. She is defined by her experiences, conditionings, and overall her own life. Chigusa was a different person, different experiences, and an overall different life. It's like saying a new born is the same thing as the child that took ten years to develop into who it is. She may have a nice personality, but it is a different person's personality.

Lloyd is not a good person, in any way shape or form. He may put on airs of being nice but he is not. He does what he does because he wants to do something, not because it might matter to someone else. Life is a game to him.

Originally Posted by Aquaman OS

Japan seems good in the show but the backstory proves they aren't quite as holy as they think they were. The were just oppressive to forigners prior to Britannan takeover like Britannia was to them now. Suzaku's stupid father was trying to play all three sides against each other with his Sakuradite and caused the invasion himself when he taunted all three sides that no one would dare attack Japan because all three sides would have to move in to get Sakuradite for themselves and it would all be destroyed. Then when the Emperor answered his foolish challenge Genbu decided he would rather sacrifice every person in his country rather than try to negotiate and save lives.

Tis true. They are/were virtually the same, a country that worries about itself not others. Which is, to be frank, expected since they are both clearly shown as heavily nationalistic societies. Genbu did what most of the Japanese wanted. It's akin to WWII where they only gave up once Little Boy and Fat Man wiped two cities off the face of the Earth.

Originally Posted by Aquaman OS

Suzaku killing his father was a GOOD thing. Everyone on every side admits this. Because they gave in they were able to preserve lives and since they still had military strength left were able to form a resitance and later on a rebellion. The Black Knights and Lelouch's forces would not be able to exist without Suzaku. Had Japan not surrendered all of its military would have been destroyed, most of it civilians killed and all of its resources destroyed or taken over. There would be no one to give Lelouch mecha, no Japanese rebels to fight for him, and heck Lelouch himself probably would have been killled during the invasion. So thank Suzaku, without him there would be no Black Knights years later.

There is no sane way to say it was a good thing. It was an aweful decision by him, but the ramifications could be said to be better than the alternative. This, however, is a matter of who you ask. Some people would rather be dead and forced into oppression and psuedo-slavery. Suzaku killing his father was a stupid decision by a child but the result was a better one than the alternative. You cannot give Suzaku props for his decision if for only the reason that he was a child with no understanding of how the world worked but decided to make a decision none the less. There is also the fact that Genbu would never have managed to continue his bitter opposition of the invasion. It would be like WWII where countless civilians and innocent people would die but eventually pressure (political, public) would force them to surrender. Or he'd just be assassinated by the Empire, which is not unlikely in any way shape or form. So you're exagurating things...

Originally Posted by Aquaman OS

The Black Knights themselves had decended into mob mentality in the finale. They attacked Villeta for no real reason (not exactly helping her view of Japanese) and Tamaki was gonna kill the council against orders. They were Lelouch's friends remember. If Nunally had been there as well then Lelouch's entire plan would have been ruined by one dumbass Japanese who couldn't control his racism. Suzaku was almost a damned hero standing up for them like he did. That whole scene through everything out of perspective with the heroic Black Knights about to engage in random murder and the evil Britannia swooping in heroicly.

Not that the Black Knights actions weren't unjustifed (though shooting up school children was a bit much Dumbass needs to calm the hell down or he's gonna destory Lelouch's plans someday.) but it certainly proves the Britannia=evil villians Japan=good heroes theory is not correct.

While the theory is not correct, certain elements are being given to much credit. Suzaku is no more a hero than MacBeth to the Japanese.

[Dann of Thursday]

I may hate the Emperor and his way of looking at things, but I can't deny he has done a fine job taking care of his country. It's actually rather scary since you have to wonder what Lelouch plans on doing to make sure the world can still progress with different policies.

[Aquaman OS]

No one understands me. Woe to the person who likes parts of both sides.

[Var]

Originally Posted by Aquaman OS

No one understands me. Woe to the person who likes parts of both sides.

I mostly agreed with you. I simply pointed out flaws in some of your claims for both sides.

[Aquaman OS]

Originally Posted by Var

I mostly agreed with you. I simply pointed out flaws in some of your claims for both sides.

I see. Well thats good to hear then.

Still its seems like a good many people are too caught up in the "Coolness" of Lelouch's character, to give my opinions much thought (not here but on on other forums and boards)

[Dann of Thursday]

I don't ususally give opinion since I am not too good at articulating my thoughts on such matters and someone always finds a better way to say it.

I'll admit that it is true that some seem to caught up with Lelouch or keep calling him a Light ripoff to look deeper. Not everyone of course.

[Var]

Originally Posted by Dann of Thursday

I'll admit that it is true that some seem to caught up with Lelouch or keep calling him a Light ripoff to look deeper. Not everyone of course.

It's not uncommon for people to dislike a character from a different story (book, movie, or otherwise) if they encroach on what the viewer has defined as his favorite or most identifiable with, character. Lelouch is a foil to Light in nearly every sense of the word, and many could see that as a danger to their own ideas. As such they quickly force their own beliefs onto others, making baseless comparisons such Lelouch is Light or some other such. It is very common and is actually how religions propagate .

And to be quite frank, Light is one of the most uninteresting characters in Anime. He is simply presented in a good way, but overall his character is as shallow as a puddle on a sunny day. Which is why, not surprisingly, when a certain character died that the show simply became mundane at best.

[mangastuff]

Originally Posted by Aquaman OS

The Black Knights themselves had decended into mob mentality in the finale. They attacked Villeta for no real reason (not exactly helping her view of Japanese) and Tamaki was gonna kill the council against orders. They were Lelouch's friends remember. ....
Not that the Black Knights actions weren't unjustifed (though shooting up school children was a bit much Dumbass needs to calm the hell down or he's gonna destory Lelouch's plans someday.) but it certainly proves the Britannia=evil villians Japan=good heroes theory is not correct.

Hm, if I remember correctly the one who atk Villeta are just Japanese, not OoBK ?

I agree that "the Britannia=evil villians Japan=good heroes theory is not correct". However, I have to say that Britannia as shown are real evil villians. If invading other countries, killing and treated those colonial ppl like non-human is not evil, then I don't know what is evil But the part Japan=good heroes is incorrect then no opposition.

Besides, Cornelia, although as respectable as she is (one of my favourite char), I have to say that "they are decent people at heart" is a littlel bit funny. As much as I can see, she is generally a similar type to Lelouch, but more ruthless

In MY POV, either this or that is neither evil nor good, just they want to do that, have to do that, and are capable of doing that (or other words, cost and benefit ). But if you really need to consider the morality, then I guess we should differentiate those who offense (invaders) and those who deffense (who lost their countries, human-rights and safetiness and have to struggle to retrieve them).

Back to Lelouch n continue the Light comparison: To me what distinguish Lulu from Light is that Lulu is more "vulnerable" than Light. The only thing that can hurt Light is his defeat, but for Lulu, a lot, including his own mistakes and "crime". Lulu has so much ppl to care (especially Nunally), which is his biggest weakness. In a sense, he is also a "soft-hearted" (toward some certain ppl of course), which prevent him from gaining success (at least several times). Generally, Light is more like a mad god while Lulu is more like a genious kid playing a dangerous game.

[Marioshinobi]

Alright, I'm breaking down the Lelouch/Zero comparison which some people like to blend together as Lelouch being Heartless.

Lelouch is a Kindhearted Person, or at least he tries to be. He tends to protect people close to him, or at least tries to make life funner for people around him. Kallen is an example here, he knows her personally as her more serious alter Ego. In school he tries to get her more into funner things instead of keeping her the quiet facade she's keeping. His attempts were one where he was running a poll and infuriating her for it, having also attempted the school festival Halloween house piece. He burned Shirley's Diary to protect her from remembering him and the pain he caused her. He's also appeared as a person that Nina goes to for advice, and most of the workload is given to him by the president. He also spends time with Nunnally and wishes to make things better for her considering her disability and ability to not see.

Why does he try so hard? He knows the Truth about the World. He watched as a young boy as his mother was killed, his world of a happy life and people disappeared soon after. His father proved to be even more cruel to him than he thought, he could understand him being busy as the king and not visiting, but telling him that he was not alive nor did he care about Marianne or Nunnally was a blow to his childish mind. He renounced his title to the throne as another childish threat perhaps, but soon learned that his father was even more cruel with the prank than expected and stated he had no value to life at all. Once more he was thrown as a political tool to be used as well as his sister. He was to be taken away from his Royal Life, Euphie who he considered his first love as a kid, Clovis who was his best friend and childish Rival, Schneizel who he considered his Rival and couldn't beat in Chess. He learned the cruelty of the world, having been given away to Japan along with his sister. Even during his stay and good side with Suzaku, kids had beaten him and he learned Racism was a big deal and how his perfect life as Brittania was shattered when he heard that the country was a invading and destroyed others. His Sister was also then supposed to marry Suzaku's Father, which he couldn't believe. Nunnally was his only happiness and family left in the world, she considered him her hero. To have been given to marry Suzaku's father was something else he couldn't stomach. So he made a deal as a child with him, what the deal was nobody will know for now. Once he made the deal and prevented the marriage, he thought he could make another peaceful life. Soon shattered by Brittania's invasion. He walked in a field full of corpses holding his sister and walking with his best friend. How was he going to explain something his father did to Suzaku? It was surprising to him that Suzaku didn't blame him either. When he didn't, he considered him his best friend and that wouldn't ever change. He also promised him that he would crush this country that caused so much hard to people and everybody he knew.

Zero; 0, Nothing, Cannot be Defined, Empty. Why did Lelouch choose this name? Because it has no Value. It can't be biased and is between negative and positive. Something he wishes to be; Nothing. He wishes to have no conscience, have no heart, never flinch when making choices, and never waver. But we see that's something he can never do, before he pressed the trigger to blow the ship, he hesitated...he felt the guilt of killing so many, where he could kill people that had no hope(First Geass usage, Hotel Jackers), these people were different and may have been allies. When he puts on that mask, his facade changes. Recall Jim Carrey's Movie " The Mask " where he changes into another personality the moment he places it on. It's something Lelouch hopes he can do as well. Yet we see in his mind that he can't throw away his conscience or ignore it as he wishes he could.

Episode 25 was named 'Zero'; which had good meaning because...what happened? Lelouch lost Everything. His move as C.C. stated " Your World will be Dyed Red.", He lost his School Life. He lost his Friendship with Suzaku, He lost his attempt to Win by not getting Cornelia, He Lost Nunnally, He Abandoned everything to get Her. At the end of the Scene his mask broke, and Kallen's Loyalty was placed into Question in the scene from her shock. He Became Zero for the First Time. A Being with Nothing. And he Acted the Part, instead of Excusing himself for Euphie's incident or when Kallen asked him if he used her and the Japanese, He Coldly gave an answer and shrugged her off. He also pleaded to Suzaku to help him find Nunnally, the last bit of friendship he could hope for, where he helped with Mao and helped Suzaku in his shock of his Father, he knew he could depend on him. Yet Suzaku cut off all ties, shrugging him off as well and leaving him with nothing but Hatred and a Great Enemy.

Why did Lelouch refer to himself as Zero in R2? Because of his memories. He knows now that he cannot return anytime soon to the same School life or Life that was fake. He knows he has nothing and Lost Everything as Far as Army, Power, Chance.

But of Course, he realizes another thing by calling himself Zero. He has everything to regain, which he will in R2.

[mikeabundo]

He's back, he's pissed, and he's learned the value of human life. I hope to see Lelouch show more emotional depth in R2. He was an immature, irresponsible, too-cool-for-school little bitch in season one.

[Masterkeyes2]

Originally Posted by mikeabundo

He's back, he's pissed, and he's learned the value of human life. I hope to see Lelouch show more emotional depth in R2. He was an immature, irresponsible, too-cool-for-school little bitch in season one.

A little to harsh and a little to undefined imo. Though the "too-cool-for-school" line made me giggle, but really how was he irresponsible at least any more so than the average human being in that show?

[Stretch5920]

Originally Posted by Marioshinobi

He knows now that he cannot return anytime soon to the same School life

I was with you up until this part. If only it were true. But we all know Lelouch will still go to school and stuff around there instead of being with the Black Knights full time for some lame reason. Atleast in season 1 he had a reason to keep going back to school, for Nunnally and his identity was still secret.

[Marioshinobi]

Originally Posted by Stretch5920

I was with you up until this part. If only it were true. But we all know Lelouch will still go to school and stuff around there instead of being with the Black Knights full time for some lame reason. Atleast in season 1 he had a reason to keep going back to school, for Nunnally and his identity was still secret.

He couldn't, he knew that. He planned on telling everybody he wouldn't be arriving for a while also. That was why he wished for Suzaku to be her knight, because he obviously couldn't stay in the country once the war moved out.

He was going to go out into the World+Brittania War. To remain in Japan with a school life would be a waste of time even with Nunnally, he most likely realized it. I'm not sure what his plan would be though >>;

[Aquaman OS]

As far as it looks he's going back to school purely to try trick Britannia into thinking Zero is new different guy, plus find out more about the guys spying on him, and what exactly Britannia was up to. It's not like he's going for fun.

[mikeabundo]

Originally Posted by Masterkeyes2

A little to harsh and a little to undefined imo. Though the "too-cool-for-school" line made me giggle, but really how was he irresponsible at least any more so than the average human being in that show?

One word: Euphie.

Four more words: absent during final battle.

[Stretch5920]

Originally Posted by Marioshinobi

He couldn't, he knew that. He planned on telling everybody he wouldn't be arriving for a while also. That was why he wished for Suzaku to be her knight, because he obviously couldn't stay in the country once the war moved out.

He was going to go out into the World+Brittania War. To remain in Japan with a school life would be a waste of time even with Nunnally, he most likely realized it. I'm not sure what his plan would be though >>;

It doesn't matter what he was going to do. It didn't work out that way so it's pointless to discuss What ifs. I'm referring to season 2 how Lelouch will still attend school just to keep the school life theme in the show for a dumb reason, even though everyone who matters already knows he is Zero. Obviously he's not going to just drop out right away, and he will convert Rolo to his side aswell while using him to find out info on who exactly is spying on him, but if he still goes to school after the half way point of the show, it's just plain stupid.

[Marioshinobi]

Originally Posted by mikeabundo

One word: Euphie.

How was he irresponsible?

He geassed her by mistake.

He saw her mass killing everybody.

It was his fault, he would take blame. If anybody would kill her, it would be him because Psychiatry couldn't stop it. She would most likely be disowned by her Father and executed.

He made use of her, having wished to at least make her dream somewhat true. Free Japan using his method.

Sidenote: We don't know how he's going to use school still. I can see him using it for a while to get back Todou and everybody, but once he hits World Issues then he'll have to abandon them all.