Romance in Code Geass (take 4)

[youngde]

Originally Posted by mngafan

No, after realizing what lelouch had done, kallen realizes his feelings does not mean that she is right. This is what SHE realized and that does not mean that this is the truth

The word 'realize' is derived from the word 'real.' When you realize something, by definition you've got it right or what 'really' happened. That's not interpretation; that's the literal definition of the word. If you learn something and draw the right conclusion, you've realized something; come to the wrong conclusion, and you haven't, by definition, realized anything. Don't believe me:

re⋅al⋅ize   /ˈriəˌlaɪz/ [ree-uh-lahyz]
verb, -ized, -iz⋅ing.
–verb (used with object)

1. to grasp or understand clearly.
2. to comprehend completely or correctly.

youngde, signing off

P.S., I'm not even writting this as a Kalulu fan. I just feel it's important to point this out in any context.

[Nogitsune]

Originally Posted by Cosmic Eagle

But fortunately she didn't, because between making Kallen more likeable in fans' minds or having Rolo die to satisfy the need for vengeance, the latter's more important.

I don't think Rolo died because Shirley needed to be "avanged" in order to satisfy the fans. In fact, that thought never even crossed my mind.
Rolo died happily. Not as happy as the protagonist of the anime, maybe, but his death was beautiful rather than horrible, and Lelouch even acknowledged him as his little brother.
Code Geass was never about making everyone pay for their crimes. If there's a reason Rolo absolutely had to die, then it's Zero Requiem. Because as long as Rolo was around, there would have been a problem - he's probably the character least likely to let Lelouch go ahead and kill himself, simply because he couldn't care less about world peace if it would be a world without his brother in it. Nunally said something similar, but she was still able to cope, and so were C.C. and Kallen.
Rolo would probably have gone berserk instead.

Anyway, having Kallen die probably wouldn't have changed much at that point when it comes to making her more popular. he thing with Rolo was that many people didn't look close enough and only saw his "murdering psycho" side. When he died the way he did, they were easily swayed, even though Rolo really hadn't changed.
When it comes to Kallen, though, people clinge to their opinions far too tightly. If she'd died, it would probably have had the same effect as Suzaku dying without joining Lelouch first.
Her enemies in this fandom would have thrown a party.

Besides, killing Kallen is effectively shitting over everything they've been building up so far really. Be glad she wasn't wasted like that.

*signs that*
Also, Nunally and Kallen are the only of Lelouch's "most important people" who are really able to appreciate the world he created. C.C. seems much more interested in the memories Lelouch gave her and the fact that he got his wish, and Suzaku... well.

[Nobodyman9]

Originally Posted by Nogitsune

I don't think Rolo died because Shirley needed to be "avanged" in order to satisfy the fans. In fact, that thought never even crossed my mind.

Well, true I'm sure that wasn't the main reason for him dying, but I think the staff also knew in the back of their minds that if they let Rolo live they would never hear the end of it from the Shirley fans.

Code Geass was never about making everyone pay for their crimes.

Well, that much is obvious

Anyway, it didn't really cross my mind for Kallen to die, certainly not for Turn 19 in place of Rolo. Then again, after Shirley died I figured anyone was fair game. However, if she had died, I don't it's too ludicrous to think that she could gain some popularity. I mean, look how high Shirley climbed the pop charts after she died. It's usually hard to hate a dead character. The main difference with Rolo is that a lot of people saw Rolo as a murdering bastard and figured he had it coming to him.

[demon_god04]

Originally Posted by Nobodyman9

Well, true I'm sure that wasn't the main reason for him dying, but I think the staff also knew in the back of their minds that if they let Rolo live they would never hear the end of it from the Shirley fans.

Well, that much is obvious

Anyway, it didn't really cross my mind for Kallen to die, certainly not for Turn 19 in place of Rolo. Then again, after Shirley died I figured anyone was fair game. However, if she had died, I don't it's too ludicrous to think that she could gain some popularity. I mean, look how high Shirley climbed the pop charts after she died. It's usually hard to hate a dead character. The main difference with Rolo is that a lot of people saw Rolo as a murdering bastard and figured he had it coming to him.

Personally, I find that to be the worst reason to kill off a character in terms of writing. Turning points in stories should happen for a plot specific reason, either to drive a character forward or to further the plot itself. There should be no problem with letting Rolo live if it was done for story purposes and that was what the writers intend rather then caving in to please the fans.

The thing with Rolo is that yes he is one screwed up little sociopath, but that was what his character was. Literally speaking, I am sure that most of us saw Shirley's death, or atleast foreshadowing to that possiblity, miles away already. Rolo was simply the instrument with which the writers orchestrated her death with, but she was pretty much slated as the tragic character of Code Geass anyways. If anything, I'd be more angry over the fact that the major theme that Shirley's death represented, forgiveness, was basically overlooked and ignored. Her death served no purpose other then to basically shove Lelouch across the breaking point, and yet the safety line, represented in her line to Suzaku, which might have lead to his salvation was erased.

[Nobodyman9]

Originally Posted by demon_god04

Personally, I find that to be the worst reason to kill off a character in terms of writing. Turning points in stories should happen for a plot specific reason, either to drive a character forward or to further the plot itself. There should be no problem with letting Rolo live if it was done for story purposes and that was what the writers intend rather then caving in to please the fans.

Granted, but there is something to be said for characters getting their comeuppance. Of course it all depends on what kind of story is being told. Also it depends on what a person's opinion of Rolo.

The thing with Rolo is that yes he is one screwed up little sociopath, but that was what his character was. Literally speaking, I am sure that most of us saw Shirley's death, or atleast foreshadowing to that possiblity, miles away already. Rolo was simply the instrument with which the writers orchestrated her death with, but she was pretty much slated as the tragic character of Code Geass anyways. If anything, I'd be more angry over the fact that the major theme that Shirley's death represented, forgiveness, was basically overlooked and ignored. Her death served no purpose other then to basically shove Lelouch across the breaking point, and yet the safety line, represented in her line to Suzaku, which might have lead to his salvation was erased.

P R E A C H

I'll agree that Shirley was probably doomed whether it was by Rolo's hand or not, but we still lost a great character that day and we're always going to associate Rolo with that. Also, one can't help but wonder how long Shirley would've lasted if she had not run into him. Perhaps she could have died in a more dignified way. But yeah, everything else you said about her "forgiveness" theme (not to mention some other elements) being overlooked is spot on.

[demon_god04]

Define "dignified". Because personally, as death scenes go, I thought that the entire scene was fairly well done in terms of the emotions involved and expressed between the two characters involved. Shirley died expressing her love for Lelouch and the idea that even if she became a different person, even if she did not remember him and even if she lost her memories of the time they had together, that she will grow to love him all over again. To me, the way she died expressing largely the kind of feelings she had for Lelouch is a very much "dignified" way to die for her.

There is also the fact that she has also died metaphorically for Lelouch several times over the course of both seasons. Losing her memories of Lelouch and the Mao incident, Charles rewriting her memories, having that geass become undone and being an outcast of her world, and then the physical death.

The value of a character is the impact they have on the story and the main character and the themes they represent and ultimately, how well they represent them. Death is not a loss if those themes that the character represented was done well and left with the viewers as well as the characters in the show a lasting impression.

[Nobodyman9]

Originally Posted by demon_god04

Define "dignified". Because personally, as death scenes go, I thought that the entire scene was fairly well done in terms of the emotions involved and expressed between the two characters involved. Shirley died expressing her love for Lelouch and the idea that even if she became a different person, even if she did not remember him and even if she lost her memories of the time they had together, that she will grow to love him all over again. To me, the way she died expressing largely the kind of feelings she had for Lelouch is a very much "dignified" way to die for her.

Okay, forgive me for rushing, but I have to leave for work in a few minutes.

I agree with you that the way she died was very important and it was executed very well, given the circumstances. I guess what I'm trying to say is that those circumstances, Rolo killing her due to an offhand statement, seemed kind of bogus. If the manner in which she had died didn't seem so...inconsequential, I guess, maybe it would've been better.

There is also the fact that she has also died metaphorically for Lelouch several times over the course of both seasons. Losing her memories of Lelouch and the Mao incident, Charles rewriting her memories, having that geass become undone and being an outcast of her world, and then the physical death.

The value of a character is the impact they have on the story and the main character and the themes they represent and ultimately, how well they represent them. Death is not a loss if those themes that the character represented was done well and left with the viewers as well as the characters in the show a lasting impression.

That's one of my main problems is I'm not sure how big an impact Shirley had in the long run. Sure she was important to Lelouch and he does think of her a few times after her death, but somehow just seems lost during the final episodes. But I guess the same could be said for Euphie, except she's got 1 or 2 people who are constantly fighting in her name.

But I think we're getting off topic.

[Levy]

Originally Posted by morbosfist

So they found someone else to pilot it. He's dead, according to the list from the Complete as I recall. Disease had to get him sooner or later.

AFAIK, there's nothing like that in the Complete list.
And anyway, if we want to play the overanalizing game, showing the Shen-Hu in the epilogue is to tell us that Xingke is alive, there was no other reason to show his knigthtmare there and then. =P

...and just not to be completely OT... he has to marry Tianzi and be crowned Emperor of China! He'll be cured, or Rakshata will give him a cyborg body, and everything is gonna be alright =)


Edit: I agree about Shirley's death being too much .. inconsequential *pats Nobodyman on the back* and also with the fact that hear death is quickly overlooked by other characters. There was a constant reminder of Euphie in the last episodes, also on Lelouch's words and actions - the flashback of the candles I loved that - but Shirley has been quite forgotten, by Rivalz and Milly too. :/
She was on Karen's wall, though. =)

[azul120]

Originally Posted by Levy

AFAIK, there's nothing like that in the Complete list.
And anyway, if we want to play the overanalizing game, showing the Shen-Hu in the epilogue is to tell us that Xingke is alive, there was no other reason to show his knigthtmare there and then. =P

...and just not to be completely OT... he has to marry Tianzi and be crowned Emperor of China! He'll be cured, or Rakshata will give him a cyborg body, and everything is gonna be alright =)


Edit: I agree about Shirley's death being too much .. inconsequential *pats Nobodyman on the back* and also with the fact that hear death is quickly overlooked by other characters. There was a constant reminder of Euphie in the last episodes, also on Lelouch's words and actions - the flashback of the candles I loved that - but Shirley has been quite forgotten, by Rivalz and Milly too. :/
She was on Karen's wall, though. =)

Yeah, I knew Milly was a little too chipper during that variety show in R2 16.

[dec4rhapsody]

Originally Posted by Levy

AFAIK, there's nothing like that in the Complete list.
And anyway, if we want to play the overanalizing game, showing the Shen-Hu in the epilogue is to tell us that Xingke is alive, there was no other reason to show his knigthtmare there and then. =P

...and just not to be completely OT... he has to marry Tianzi and be crowned Emperor of China! He'll be cured, or Rakshata will give him a cyborg body, and everything is gonna be alright =)


Edit: I agree about Shirley's death being too much .. inconsequential *pats Nobodyman on the back* and also with the fact that hear death is quickly overlooked by other characters. There was a constant reminder of Euphie in the last episodes, also on Lelouch's words and actions - the flashback of the candles I loved that - but Shirley has been quite forgotten, by Rivalz and Milly too. :/
She was on Karen's wall, though. =)

~no Xingke in Push! death list.

TBH, Xingke's well being remains one of the biggest mysteries unsolved...
But we'll definately get an answer in PD9.

Maa, well...I don't think that lolita is that queer in the AniManga world therefore I am very surprised that the XingkeXTianzi pairing squicks many of you here...

[morbosfist]

Originally Posted by Levy

AFAIK, there's nothing like that in the Complete list.
And anyway, if we want to play the overanalizing game, showing the Shen-Hu in the epilogue is to tell us that Xingke is alive, there was no other reason to show his knigthtmare there and then. =P

My mistake then.

[mngafan]

Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness

so if word of god says that lelouch didnt EVER want C.C as a lover (the expression was never yearned for her to be a mother or a lover, not even once)
that must mean that word of god meant he had feelings deep down inside ?
that doesnt make any sense

and if word of god says that kallen understood his feelings
then its possible for the WORD OF GOD (as in THE WRITERS OF THE BLOODY SHOW) were mistaken about what the made up fictunal character they wrote understiood ?
maybe they didnt understand lelouch's feelings either ?
on the other hand i doubt i would question the litteral word of god in this context
its god, isnt he supposed to be beyond mistakes

No, of course not. I'm just saying that yearn does not mean feel. Just because he did not want her to become his lover, that does not mean that he did not love her.

My mistake. Not 'realized', but 'understood'(well, I don't think that will change anything that much). I don't have the complete or poems, could anyone post those parts, please?
So, was it said that kallen understood lelouch's feelings of love for her specifically? Lelouch understood kallen's romantic feelings for her since she showed it many times, but I don't think that the contrary is the case. TO ME, Lelouch just did not give enough hints of loving her like a lover, not in the series.

I was thinking about another 'couple':Milly and Lloyd. I think that the latter did love her: at the end of turn 12, I think, on seeing Milly on t.v, lloyd says that she's his ex-fiancee with his usual smile but cecile looks at him with a saddened face...
And about cecile, I had at the very beginning felt she might end up with suzaku, considering her gentleness towards him, until euphemia appeared

[Levy]

Originally Posted by dec4rhapsody

Maa, well...I don't think that lolita is that queer in the AniManga world therefore I am very surprised that the XingkeXTianzi pairing squicks many of you here...

Lol, you know, I've never paid too much attention to the age gap, as the pairing is presented in such a platonic way one just doesn't notice the possible fanservice target in it, admitting that there is one.
It's far from being my favourite couple, but I like it =)

Originally Posted by mngafan

I was thinking about another 'couple':Milly and Lloyd. I think that the latter did love her: at the end of turn 12, I think, on seeing Milly on t.v, lloyd says that she's his ex-fiancee with his usual smile but cecile looks at him with a saddened face...

That reminds me.. once upon a time, Lloyd's profile on Wiki uses to stress this particular moment as a hint that he might harbour feelings toward Milly, but that line got deleted later. XD

I've never liked the Lloyd/Milly pairing, they seems to be miles away from each other and I imagined their marriage consisting of convenience, pretending and both being lonely by the side of the other, that is even worst than being lonely by oneself.

...plus, I'm all for Lloyd/Cécile! XD <- shameless biased fan opinion LOL XD

[Nosauz]

I always felt that from the way suzaku was treated by cecile that there might have been something, but after the introduction of euphie, it became more of a foster parent relationship than an intimate one. On the note on lloyd, hes just wierd and creepy which makes me like all the better, he remind me of leeron though not gay but still about as ecentric. After it seemed that euphie x suzaku was real it seemed that there was possible tention between cecile and lloyd. Though I really felt in the end, lloyd is one of the character that places science before everything, similar to suzaku/lelouch with zr at the end.

I have one problem romance in anime in general, even though I know the classic imout/siscon is standard fare in your romance/harem stories, I just feel like its really rare for animes to portray a normal relationship between brothers and sisters. I always got the vibe from lelouch that hes affections towards nunally bordered on more intimate level with her. Even though he naturally assumed suzaku would be with nunally, later he gets angry thats shes with him, although at the time he had sold him out to his father but I always felt that the nunally/lelouch relationship was wierd. Really I understand the idea of familycons but the idea that just because you spend time with somebody of the opposite sex for a long time means you fall in love is rediculous, I mean at the end of s2 when lelouch dies its pretty obvious that nunally loves her brother but I feel that the relationship will always seem a little awkward. In the end I just feel that siscon/brocon tend to be norm when they really arn't, but hey thats my two cents.

I don't really have a problem with cousins but incest is still not a normal thing.

Levy, hilarious, yea I love the lloydxcecile pairing too, but it always felt that the most well paired one with lloyd would Raksha, since they have this rivalry going on, but then again I seem to see romantic tension everywhere o_O, god damn eroge adaptations.

[Levy]

I don't know, but my opinion is that Lloyd would always saw her as ... another man, or, more exactly the other male animal he has to fight to keep his territory. I don't know if Rakshata feels the same about him - my grasp on her character is very very dull ^^; - but the impression I get about them is of a completely asexuate friendly rivalry, and that Lloyd is more interested in proving that his metaphorical mecha-penis is longer than Rakshata's one, than to get her interested in his biologicall appendage or his human qualities - that are few, and very likely to not appeal the indipendent and a bit idealistic Rakshata at all.
Their interaction as a couple would be funny, anyway...

As for Cécile, she's always look too mature for Suzaku to me, even though the age gap - eight years- is not that huge, and always saw her kindness toward him like motherly caring.

And I agree with what you said about familycon. It's one of those things that fiction kinda failed to show realistically, what is usually on screen is not the norm at all. But I'm not too buggered by this, it's fiction after all, and I actually like some incestuos pairings in other series. I'm going to hell I know... XDDD

[Nosauz]

yea I always got that same feeling with cecile (i'm not putting the e with accent because i'm lazy). Especially in the begining when it seemed that they were trying to pair cecile with suzaku, it almost felt like eupie was added because the idea of suzaku and cecile. I loved the dynamic between Cecile X lloyd, because cecile really seems to understand him though it really seems that it was a more one sided thing. Hey don't get me wrong there are some incestous pairings that I love, koi kaze anybody? sometimes I even favor the familycom more like in ef, but sometimes it just feels theres a familycom just for the sake of it, and when its used in that matter, it no longer contains the complex feelings that generally well done familycoms have.

[Nogitsune]

Originally Posted by Nobodyman9

Okay, forgive me for rushing, but I have to leave for work in a few minutes.

I agree with you that the way she died was very important and it was executed very well, given the circumstances. I guess what I'm trying to say is that those circumstances, Rolo killing her due to an offhand statement, seemed kind of bogus. If the manner in which she had died didn't seem so...inconsequential, I guess, maybe it would've been better.

Actually, I rather liked the way Shirley died.
It was typically Code Geass, and not only was her death scene awesome, but people also learned an important lesson about Rolo: He's not some cute kitten that can be tamed by giving it a ball of wool.
Not even Lelouch had an easy time controling him, and the fact that he missed that told us something, too.
And really, Shirley's cause of death was not nearly as "random" as Euphie's. I mean, dying from a joke is kind of sad. xD

Also, I believe Shirley had a pretty big impact. Lelouch doesn't forget easily, after all - even though there were a lot of things he had to take care of, and I guess the staff lacked the time to bring her up again more than a few times.


Anyway...
As far as I'm concerned, Lloyd is still an aromantic asexual. xD
And I never saw Lelouch's feelings for his little sister as anythiung but platonic. Just because he doesn't react well to his best friend turned worst enemy "taking her away from him" doesn't mean he wanted to have sex with her. xD
I mean, you can read a lot into things when it comes to animes. LuluNana seems much less likey than LuluSuza to me, for example, even though I'm pretty sure both relationships weren't meant to be about romance. xD
Ah... incest can be entertaining, but I didn't see much of it in Code Geass.

[demon_god04]

Originally Posted by Nobodyman9

Okay, forgive me for rushing, but I have to leave for work in a few minutes.

I agree with you that the way she died was very important and it was executed very well, given the circumstances. I guess what I'm trying to say is that those circumstances, Rolo killing her due to an offhand statement, seemed kind of bogus. If the manner in which she had died didn't seem so...inconsequential, I guess, maybe it would've been better.


That's one of my main problems is I'm not sure how big an impact Shirley had in the long run. Sure she was important to Lelouch and he does think of her a few times after her death, but somehow just seems lost during the final episodes. But I guess the same could be said for Euphie, except she's got 1 or 2 people who are constantly fighting in her name.

But I think we're getting off topic.

Except that Rollo did not kill her because of an off hand statement. He killed her because Shirley remembered Nunally, therefore his position as Lelouch's only family member was jepordized. There was nothing off hand about what Shirley said to Rolo at all, questioning his feelings towards Lelouch.

As I have already said, that is one of the problems I had with Shirley's portrayal in R2 and the inconsequental role she ultimately played in the end. What I am replying to is the concept that Rolo deserved to die because he killed Shirley and that her death somehow constitute as some great loss. As I stated previously, if it was handled well, character death is not a loss if what they represented remained prevailent throughout the series and more importantly, in the characters they were designed to affect. Shirley's death was a loss in the respect that the ideas she represented was not followed through and dropped, not that she died.

[Nosauz]

I mean if you look at a lot of anime, we always have these ideas of incest floating around, which is far from the norm, and especially when dealing with a harem situation, there's a little voice in the back of the mind that constantly whispers incest. Though I never said they had that situation, because of the use of females in this anime has been overtly to draw large viewership its not far fetched that the staff could have possibly had in mind of incest undertone, I mean look at the loli. I'm just throwing it out there because from the animes I've been watching it just feels directors use that kind of relationship just for the shock value, when in reality its a rare occurrence and can be done very well artistically.

[Nobodyman9]

Originally Posted by demon_god04

Except that Rollo did not kill her because of an off hand statement. He killed her because Shirley remembered Nunally, therefore his position as Lelouch's only family member was jepordized. There was nothing off hand about what Shirley said to Rolo at all, questioning his feelings towards Lelouch.

Fine "casual statement". Whatever. Point is, she wasn't antagonizing him nor was she instigating anything (not intetionally anyway). Quite honestly, I don't see why Shirley knowing about Nunnally was such a big deal to Rolo. I mean Lelouch knew about her too and Rolo must've known that. What difference would Shirley make?

As I have already said, that is one of the problems I had with Shirley's portrayal in R2 and the inconsequental role she ultimately played in the end. What I am replying to is the concept that Rolo deserved to die because he killed Shirley and that her death somehow constitute as some great loss. As I stated previously, if it was handled well, character death is not a loss if what they represented remained prevailent throughout the series and more importantly, in the characters they were designed to affect. Shirley's death was a loss in the respect that the ideas she represented was not followed through and dropped, not that she died.

Fine, so we agree that what Shirley represented was wasted and that constituted a loss. I'd like to bring up a quote if I may.

"When does a person truly die? It is when they are forgotten!"

So anyway, did Rolo deserve to die for killing Shirley. Well, I'm sure there a quite a few people who think so (Lelouch included). But whether he deserved it or not, he did die in the end. And I'm not gonna try to delude myself, I know the ones who really killed Shirley were Okouchi and Taniguchi (grr...) The only thing else I'm gonna say is, as I've said before, we all have to be held accountable for, and answer to, our actions.

Also, I'll disagree with you somewhat on Shirley's death being a loss. I know it may seem hyporcritical with the quote I just posted, but I think a death is always a loss in some way. After all, a living person can usually do more than a dead person. I still agree with you though that the message or what the person symbolizes is the most important aspect. But it is true that we all have our time.

Seriously, if I ever see Okouchi or Taniguchi I'm gonna kick 'em in the nuts.