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Old 2021-04-04, 00:53   Link #21
Ragashingo
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A few random thoughts upon a rewatch:
  • The very first scene looks like Diva heading towards a stage to sing. It feels like her song will be important, but she also looks a little beat up. I'm hoping this pays off in some epic way by the end.
  • Diva is the first autonomous humanoid AI. More advanced than the other bots around the theme park. I wonder what the difference is? More processing power? Better battery? Doesn't have to be networked to function? Matsumoto did mention that the Archive Diva returned to when her body shut down was something that tended to all the world's AIs, though the music room seemed unique to her, so maybe most bots are run remotely or several bots are controlled by the same AI? What are the implications? Perhaps Diva can still operate if they destroy the radio tower while most bots can't? Are the floor cleaning bots autonomous AI's... but just not humanoid??
  • That said, that she is the first autonomous humanoid AI doesn't mean she's the only one. Presumably, the more expensive bodies or brains aren't needed for simpler tasks like serving food? Interesting that the first autonomous AI is merely a singer in an amusement park. Also interesting that she is only a year old. That might put a limit on the number of other autonomous AI's out there.
  • Diva senses the destruction somehow before the Singularity Project fully activates… As she does, we see several short clips of time flowing in reverse. Was the program starting to kick in once she reached her stage position and fully activated once the correct time was reached? Those conditions staying fixed in the corner for a few minutes and her position indicator changing each time she moved were my first indications that the show knew what it was doing and that I should pay attention.
  • Do we think the assemblyman is going to remain the third-rate, easily voted out person he was? Diva's little speech about "...how you continue to live..." seemed to resonate with him.
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Old 2021-04-04, 01:03   Link #22
Blueknight78
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ok, at first it give a sort of mixing of violete evergarden more modern and sci-fi, + some action, not saying which is bad it was good, poor diva this program is really a big scum wiling only to accept change what he want to change and not what she want to change.

now, i'm a lot confused with the end someone can help me?

they go from shake hands in one frame to the kuma getting a big robot to beat diva, and let the little girl die, while somehow i could understand he don't want to change this the fact which they go from one thing to another without any explannation make it confuse

ok let me see if i get it right, correct if i'm wrong.

somehow diva find out about the little girl will gonna die and tried to run to save her but the kuma ai, decided to now allow her to save the girl because he don't want to "change too much the past" only what he's care???, well, where he got this big robot????, why she still working with him??? it was the version which i've watched which somehow cut part of the anime??? or was really it, they where shaking hands then in the next second he was beating her???? after that if i was in her place, in the moment he goes back to the kuma i could just had crushed him and make sure he knows i don't want to work with him anymore, while the end was a big twist still confuse because it feels they cut of everything which lead to this moment.
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Old 2021-04-04, 01:15   Link #23
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Originally Posted by bakato View Post
What if harming others did further her mission? It is antithetical to her mission by definition and therefore not an option.
You're just avoiding the question. Well, it doesn't matter. The show will explore it in due time anyway.

Quote:
Matsumoto's mission is to avert the genocide of humanity so he sought to avert Aikawa's death. The terrorists seek the destruction of AI so they sought to kill Aikawa.
Even though Matsumoto is driven by the cold logic of his programming while the terrorists are driven by ideology and emotions, they are similar in that they're willing to take morally questionable actions to accomplish their goals. Sure, right now Matsumoto was trying to save someone, but it's plenty obvious that if he had to kill someone to carry out the mission, he would have no issues doing so, and I'm sure the show will explore that soon enough.

As for Diva, we'll leave it for later on. Right now she claims that helping people is aligned with her mission, which would make her no different from Matsumoto, but that sounds like an excuse. It feels sus. Because her desperation when she was trying to save her human friend didn't feel like it was driven by her mission. It felt driven by raw emotion. Like she just wanted to save a friend, period. And I feel that's also what drives her to help Matsumoto, not her mission. But again, we'll leave it for later, when the show actually explores what makes her tick.
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Old 2021-04-04, 01:49   Link #24
Ragashingo
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Originally Posted by Blueknight78 View Post
...questions about the final scene...
Yeah, I thought the cut to the fight at the airport was too abrupt. Here's what seems to have happened:
  • When Matsumoto shows Diva the news story from the future, the one about the building's destruction and how there were no injuries, there are at least two other important story clippings that Diva notices. In the upper left is a picture of the plane on fire / exploding. In the lower right is the news clipping listing everyone who died on the plane.
  • Diva notices those two clippings and sees that the little girl she is friends with was listed as someone who dies on that plane flight. She presumably heads to the airport to stop the flight from taking off even though Matsumoto just told her that they weren't allowed to change the past unnecessarily.
  • Diva makes it as far as an airport hanger before Matsumoto takes control of a construction bot of some kind and forcibly stops her from interfering with the plane. Matsumoto's harsh truth is that even though they have a lot of future records of bad things big and small that will happen, there are far too many to prevent and they can't focus on little tragedies, no matter how sad, because doing so would get in the way of saving humanity as a whole.

If you go back and watch and listen, right after Diva shakes Matsumoto's hand they do layer the sound of a passenger jet over the top of Diva staring off into the distance. That was meant to connect the handshake scene with the next scene at the airport hanger... but it didn't really do a good enough job. A short clip of Diva on her way to the airport or arriving at the airport with Matsumoto continuing to scold her about changing the past would have smoothed things out a lot.
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Old 2021-04-04, 02:34   Link #25
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Wasn’t really expecting much from these, but the first two episodes showed promise. AI plot aside, I thought the episodes solidly built up Vivy’s motivations in an organic way. Let’s see!
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Old 2021-04-04, 02:55   Link #26
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Honestly, that bear bot gives me so many Kyubey vibes, it isn't even funny. And that thing in the end... how does he expect Vivy to not destroy him at the earliest convenience after letting her friend die and showing that he absolutely is capable of taking over machines to destroy her at any moment? In that moment, he basically proved all the terrorists point ten times over. If that little psycho doesn't turn into a form of Skynet later on, I'll be very surprised.
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Old 2021-04-04, 03:31   Link #27
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So, I'm a bit concerned about a potential plot hole I noticed already. Diva is supposed to make people happy with her song, and for that, people have to be alive. In fact, she said something to that effect in episode two, right? She also claimed she would help Matsumoto as long as that didn't interfere with her mission. Except, it already did, because he didn't let her save her friend, and now she won't be able to sing for her. Meaning he directly interfered with her mission. So what now? Is she gonna run away from him after all? Is she gonna rebel against him? Going by the preview, it doesn't look like it. So here's hoping they can explain in a convincing manner why she's gonna stay with him even though he already interfered with her mission, and probably will keep doing so. I really hope they can explain it because I would hate for a show with so much potential to fall prey to sloppy writing.


On a different note, I agree with magnuskn that Matsumoto is really sus. His tale doesn't even add up. He claims the androids in the future rebelled as a result of giving them more rights and freedom. But the scene at the beginning suggests otherwise. The androids didn't seem to be killing humans out of their free will. It looked more like they were controlled or going berserk for some reason. What gives it away is the emblem on their necks. It looked red, while its normal color is supposed to be white. Incidentally, Matsumoto has red eyes, which might or might not have some connection with the red emblems. Maybe he was controlling the androids.
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Old 2021-04-04, 03:43   Link #28
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Spoiler for ep1 and 2:
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Old 2021-04-04, 03:52   Link #29
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Originally Posted by Blueknight78 View Post
ok, at first it give a sort of mixing of violete evergarden more modern and sci-fi, + some action, not saying which is bad it was good, poor diva this program is really a big scum wiling only to accept change what he want to change and not what she want to change.

now, i'm a lot confused with the end someone can help me?

they go from shake hands in one frame to the kuma getting a big robot to beat diva, and let the little girl die, while somehow i could understand he don't want to change this the fact which they go from one thing to another without any explannation make it confuse
Indeed, that transition was extremely awkward. It played like there a scene missing.

Apart from that I thought the epis were entertaining and competent. Though it must be said, the premise is pretty much directly lifted from the Terminator movies and the teddy bear A.I. is lifted from- well, A.I..
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Old 2021-04-04, 04:44   Link #30
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Indeed, that transition was extremely awkward. It played like there a scene missing.

Apart from that I thought the epis were entertaining and competent. Though it must be said, the premise is pretty much directly lifted from the Terminator movies and the teddy bear A.I. is lifted from- well, A.I..
And Ted's big robot lifted from Aliens.

I'm still a bit on the fence about this show but am interested to see where it goes.
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Old 2021-04-04, 06:49   Link #31
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I’m seeing Animatrix and Westworld too, not that that’s a bad thing.
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Old 2021-04-04, 07:24   Link #32
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Also, the thing about "altering the future is forbidden!" is absolutely bunk, given that Bear Kyubeys mission is to, ta-daaaa, alter the future. He is isolating Vivy to make her dependent on him and I expect any person (or fellow AI) who gets close to her to end up dead as well, at least for the first few episodes.

Terrorist guy who got saved by her will probably turn out to be a big help when the shocking (oh, so shocking...) reveal comes that Bear Kyubey was up to nooooo good. Curse his sudden, yet inevitable betrayal!

Sorry, I think my sarcasm meter is way up today.
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Old 2021-04-04, 12:17   Link #33
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Damn, that was the best premiere of the season wow!

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Originally Posted by Kazu-kun View Post
So, I'm a bit concerned about a potential plot hole I noticed already. Diva is supposed to make people happy with her song, and for that, people have to be alive. In fact, she said something to that effect in episode two, right? She also claimed she would help Matsumoto as long as that didn't interfere with her mission. Except, it already did, because he didn't let her save her friend, and now she won't be able to sing for her. Meaning he directly interfered with her mission. So what now? Is she gonna run away from him after all? Is she gonna rebel against him? Going by the preview, it doesn't look like it. So here's hoping they can explain in a convincing manner why she's gonna stay with him even though he already interfered with her mission, and probably will keep doing so. I really hope they can explain it because I would hate for a show with so much potential to fall prey to sloppy writing.

On a different note, I agree with magnuskn that Matsumoto is really sus. His tale doesn't even add up. He claims the androids in the future rebelled as a result of giving them more rights and freedom. But the scene at the beginning suggests otherwise. The androids didn't seem to be killing humans out of their free will. It looked more like they were controlled or going berserk for some reason. What gives it away is the emblem on their necks. It looked red, while its normal color is supposed to be white. Incidentally, Matsumoto has red eyes, which might or might not have some connection with the red emblems. Maybe he was controlling the androids.
I'm pretty sure Diva directive isn't so rigid that she has follow it to letter. She has discretion how implement & achieve those ends. That's how she decide helping Matsumoto was in her interesting after initially (and continuously) rejecting him when proved his words. There no way every event gonna play as neatly as the first one did and she will have to limits of she can do in a way she accept and still complete her directive.

As future events, if Matsumoto wasn't telling the truth I don't see what point is. Remember the first episode established that current AI technology is already imperfect because they can't handle multiple tasks like human can. They simply do not capacity for complete independent moral reasoning. If anything I feel the problems in the futures are rooted in the deficiencies in the Al that yet to be worked out and those historical turning point exacerbated those issues. Granting personhood to something that is not advance enough to define self becasue humans themselves have yet complete understand how their own brains work is recipe for disaster and hugely irresponsible. There implication that Al technology outstripped the controllable bounds.

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Originally Posted by magnuskn View Post
Also, the thing about "altering the future is forbidden!" is absolutely bunk, given that Bear Kyubeys mission is to, ta-daaaa, alter the future. He is isolating Vivy to make her dependent on him and I expect any person (or fellow AI) who gets close to her to end up dead as well, at least for the first few episodes.

Terrorist guy who got saved by her will probably turn out to be a big help when the shocking (oh, so shocking...) reveal comes that Bear Kyubey was up to nooooo good. Curse his sudden, yet inevitable betrayal!

Sorry, I think my sarcasm meter is way up today.
If altering the future was forbidden Matsumoto wouldn't even be here in the first place. The point is how much should they do it, because he is here for one specific purpose. Matsumoto isn't trying to solve the world's issues nor will doing so prevent the specific outcome he's aiming for. Vivy herself basically doesn't exist in the future since she shelved away, so he totally leave her be.

Hope the story do trite like make him the villain because functions on cold logic versus Vivy emotional one. The two learning from each other, developing common ground between their desires would make much interesting show. They both want the same thing in end, but they just differ to achieving it. He could be lying but I just don't see end result given what happens anyway.

Tappei and Umehara are such predictable they boil the show down to that. Especial with way Matsumoto made it clear where he stands. There no way twist with would ever work.

Last edited by Applehell; 2021-04-04 at 13:01.
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Old 2021-04-04, 15:24   Link #34
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Yeah, "letting a little girl get blown up in a plane accident" is pretty much a good indicator that you are a bad guy.
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Old 2021-04-04, 15:43   Link #35
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Yeah, "letting a little girl get blown up in a plane accident" is pretty much a good indicator that you are a bad guy.
Or that he doesn't care about anything other his mission. Like I doubt the Als care about the girl either, so are they evil too? Nevermind that was thanks Matsumoto that politician was saved or should he have died for the guaranteed passage of Al rights? Do see how more complicated this is?
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Old 2021-04-04, 16:00   Link #36
Ragashingo
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Yeah, "letting a little girl get blown up in a plane accident" is pretty much a good indicator that you are a bad guy.
Not necessarily. Something like 3,500 people die each day to traffic accidents around the world. Even with perfect knowledge from the future, any one of us could only save a tiny handful of those people. There's too much distance and not enough time to even make a dent in that number.

Even if she'd gotten to the airport in time and somehow convinced the plane not to take off, that'd be 300ish lives saved. And a whole lot of questions raised. Why was a theme park AI singer at the airport? How did it know the plane had what would soon be catastrophic damage? Diva would have been taken into custody and an investigation into her launched and the really super important mission of saving all of humanity would fail.

I really hope we keep getting these tough, tragic choices, but I don't think Matsumoto preventing her from saving the plane is a sign he is evil. I think Diva will disagree with his methods more and more as the show goes on and it might be that his need to complete his mission becomes corrupted into the very thing that causes the AI's to rebel in the first place, but I don't think he's evil... yet...
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Old 2021-04-04, 16:21   Link #37
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Originally Posted by Kazu-kun View Post
You're just avoiding the question. Well, it doesn't matter. The show will explore it in due time anyway.

Even though Matsumoto is driven by the cold logic of his programming while the terrorists are driven by ideology and emotions, they are similar in that they're willing to take morally questionable actions to accomplish their goals. Sure, right now Matsumoto was trying to save someone, but it's plenty obvious that if he had to kill someone to carry out the mission, he would have no issues doing so, and I'm sure the show will explore that soon enough.

As for Diva, we'll leave it for later on. Right now she claims that helping people is aligned with her mission, which would make her no different from Matsumoto, but that sounds like an excuse. It feels sus. Because her desperation when she was trying to save her human friend didn't feel like it was driven by her mission. It felt driven by raw emotion. Like she just wanted to save a friend, period. And I feel that's also what drives her to help Matsumoto, not her mission. But again, we'll leave it for later, when the show actually explores what makes her tick.
I don't know what was so vague about it. The answer was no because it won't. If your mission was to accumulate wealth, you wouldn't donate anything to charity.

My point is that it is the result of their goals. An anti-AI campaign is morally questionable by nature and Matsumoto's goal of averting human extinction over the course of 100 years under the current premise will most certainly invite morally questionable actions. Vivy's goal, on the other hand, by nature does not. Your initial assessment lumped the former two together on the basis that they would do anything to accomplish their goals.

Since Vivy's goal does not invite morally questionable actions, there is almost no conflict with her own personal feelings, which I never denied existed. Thank you for agreeing with me. Vivy's personal feelings that drive her to accomplish her mission is the same as the terrorists.

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Honestly, that bear bot gives me so many Kyubey vibes, it isn't even funny. And that thing in the end... how does he expect Vivy to not destroy him at the earliest convenience after letting her friend die and showing that he absolutely is capable of taking over machines to destroy her at any moment? In that moment, he basically proved all the terrorists point ten times over. If that little psycho doesn't turn into a form of Skynet later on, I'll be very surprised.
Because she still needs him to avert the genocide of humanity?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kazu-kun View Post
So, I'm a bit concerned about a potential plot hole I noticed already. Diva is supposed to make people happy with her song, and for that, people have to be alive. In fact, she said something to that effect in episode two, right? She also claimed she would help Matsumoto as long as that didn't interfere with her mission. Except, it already did, because he didn't let her save her friend, and now she won't be able to sing for her. Meaning he directly interfered with her mission. So what now? Is she gonna run away from him after all? Is she gonna rebel against him? Going by the preview, it doesn't look like it. So here's hoping they can explain in a convincing manner why she's gonna stay with him even though he already interfered with her mission, and probably will keep doing so. I really hope they can explain it because I would hate for a show with so much potential to fall prey to sloppy writing.

On a different note, I agree with magnuskn that Matsumoto is really sus. His tale doesn't even add up. He claims the androids in the future rebelled as a result of giving them more rights and freedom. But the scene at the beginning suggests otherwise. The androids didn't seem to be killing humans out of their free will. It looked more like they were controlled or going berserk for some reason. What gives it away is the emblem on their necks. It looked red, while its normal color is supposed to be white. Incidentally, Matsumoto has red eyes, which might or might not have some connection with the red emblems. Maybe he was controlling the androids.
People. Not this girl specifically. And plenty of people will die of natural causes in 100 years. Her desire to save the girl was a personal one and her death does not mean the end of her mission.

He said that giving them rights opened a gateway to their evolution, which led to their going terminator.

Quote:
Originally Posted by magnuskn View Post
Also, the thing about "altering the future is forbidden!" is absolutely bunk, given that Bear Kyubeys mission is to, ta-daaaa, alter the future. He is isolating Vivy to make her dependent on him and I expect any person (or fellow AI) who gets close to her to end up dead as well, at least for the first few episodes.

Terrorist guy who got saved by her will probably turn out to be a big help when the shocking (oh, so shocking...) reveal comes that Bear Kyubey was up to nooooo good. Curse his sudden, yet inevitable betrayal!

Sorry, I think my sarcasm meter is way up today.
What part of "unnecessary alterations" did you fail to comprehend? He's here to avert humanity's extinction and it wouldn't be funny if some unnecessary intervention ended up in a different type of extinction.

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Originally Posted by Applehell View Post
As future events, if Matsumoto wasn't telling the truth I don't see what point is. Remember the first episode established that current AI technology is already imperfect because they can't handle multiple tasks like human can. They simply do not capacity for complete independent moral reasoning. If anything I feel the problems in the futures are rooted in the deficiencies in the Al that yet to be worked out and those historical turning point exacerbated those issues. Granting personhood to something that is not advance enough to define self becasue humans themselves have yet complete understand how their own brains work is recipe for disaster and hugely irresponsible. There implication that Al technology outstripped the controllable bounds.
There's definitely more to this skynet terror. How did AI evolution lead them, who should still only have one defined mission, to genocide humanity?

Matsumoto's goes on about true history, but I doubt his historical records will prove to be completely accurate.
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Old 2021-04-04, 18:06   Link #38
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Originally Posted by Applehell View Post
Or that he doesn't care about anything other his mission. Like I doubt the Als care about the girl either, so are they evil too? Nevermind that was thanks Matsumoto that politician was saved or should he have died for the guaranteed passage of Al rights? Do see how more complicated this is?
Not really. Vivy wanted to save her friend, Bear Kyubey violently stopped her for no good reason at all, besides "We CaN't ChAnGe ThE fUtUrE!" (while attempting to change the future). His stated reason for not letting her save the passengers is patently bunk, because his very mission completely invalidates his argument in the first place.

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Not necessarily. Something like 3,500 people die each day to traffic accidents around the world. Even with perfect knowledge from the future, any one of us could only save a tiny handful of those people. There's too much distance and not enough time to even make a dent in that number.
Immaterial to the situation at hand. Vivy specifically wanted to save her friend, not random people she doesn't know about.

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Originally Posted by Ragashingo View Post
Even if she'd gotten to the airport in time and somehow convinced the plane not to take off, that'd be 300ish lives saved. And a whole lot of questions raised. Why was a theme park AI singer at the airport? How did it know the plane had what would soon be catastrophic damage? Diva would have been taken into custody and an investigation into her launched and the really super important mission of saving all of humanity would fail.
Bad argument. The congressman could have ratted her out just the same. I presume she will be doing a ton of missions in future episodes which will require her to step outside of her singer persona, too.

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Originally Posted by Ragashingo View Post
I really hope we keep getting these tough, tragic choices, but I don't think Matsumoto preventing her from saving the plane is a sign he is evil. I think Diva will disagree with his methods more and more as the show goes on and it might be that his need to complete his mission becomes corrupted into the very thing that causes the AI's to rebel in the first place, but I don't think he's evil... yet...
Really, the red glowing eyes, snide comments and psychopathic behaviour don't convince you? He couldn't be more transparently evil unless he chose to wear a Darth Vader mask.

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Because she still needs him to avert the genocide of humanity?

What part of "unnecessary alterations" did you fail to comprehend? He's here to avert humanity's extinction and it wouldn't be funny if some unnecessary intervention ended up in a different type of extinction.
The entire storyline completely collapses already after she saved the congressman. Since she definitely altered the timeline with this single event, due to the butterfly effect the future will be different to the timeline Bear Kyubey came from, anyway. Saving the little girl and other passengers would have not changed that at all.

And it's pretty much 100% clear that the Bear AI is using her naiveté against her to achieve his own ends, regardless of her own wishes, as well as actively letting people die who didn't have to. The writers couldn't be less subtle about that if they'd hit us through the screen with a sledgehammer.
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Old 2021-04-04, 19:25   Link #39
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Your initial assessment lumped the former two together on the basis that they would do anything to accomplish their goals.
Which is true. And I can concede that we don't know how far Diva is willing to go for her mission, but I'm sure we'll gonna find out soon enough.

Quote:
People. Not this girl specifically. And plenty of people will die of natural causes in 100 years. Her desire to save the girl was a personal one and her death does not mean the end of her mission.
Her underlying motivation might be personal, but it's also part of her mission. She said so herself when she went out her way to save the terrorist guy (against Matsumoto's wishes, I should add), and she wanted to save the little girl for the same reason. She might not be able to save everyone but that doesn't matter to her. She's not an utilitarian robot who cares about the numbers and shit. Matsumoto might have such concerns but she doesn't. What matters to her is to try her best to help whoever she can and make them happy. And if Matsumoto stops her, which he already did, he is indeed interfering with her mission. So here's hoping a good explanation is coming next episode or I'm gonna be pretty disappointed on this show.

Quote:
He said that giving them rights opened a gateway to their evolution, which led to their going terminator.
Yes, and it still feels like bullshit. What Matsumoto describes is like a Matrix situation in which androids evolved to the point they decided to stop being slaves or something. Except, what we see in the first scene is actually more like a Skynet situation, in which someone or something got control of the androids and programmed them to kill humans. Like, they didn't look like a bunch of advanced and evolved androids who decided to rebel out of their free will. They looked like they were being controlled. Their behaviour and the suspicious red marking gives it away.
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Old 2021-04-04, 20:13   Link #40
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I think for the sake of reaching the end goal that Matsumoto wants it probably is a good idea to not make an enemy of your partner in this endeavor. Yes, saving every person isn't going to happen. But saving those that Vivy particularly would like to see stay alive is a good way to make sure his mission actually happens. After all there are going to be missions that aren't just about saving someone and thus won't be easy to get her onboard with in the first place. Letting people she cares about die for the sake of his mission is just making sure that issues continue to get worse and makes his mission more likely to fail.

If there's any flaw in this plan to save the future it is sending this idiot into the past. No wonder the AI of the future went on a berserk murder spree if this guy represents where AI development has reached.

His entire angle is absolutely nonsensical. The point is to change the future and even changing one thing is going to impact the future in ways he can't possibly comprehend or predict. The most effective they can be is right at the start of this mission with events that won't be immediately thrown off by their actions.

The bear is an idiot that thinks he's a genius.
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