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Old 2021-04-04, 21:33   Link #41
Ragashingo
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Really, the red glowing eyes, snide comments and psychopathic behaviour don't convince you? He couldn't be more transparently evil unless he chose to wear a Darth Vader mask.
I think something feels off. Based on some of the trailers, I do think red plays a larger roll than just the circle triangle on the AIs’ necks. There’s a couple of interesting long shots of a costal city where the good AI blue is then replaced by evil AI red as if a virus or corruption took over. But Matsumoto in particular? Who seems to have shown up directly because that professor sacrificed his life for one last chance to fix everything? After being directly shown typing in the Project Singularity trigger conditions?

I’d rate the chances of Matsumoto being the evil or turning evil at 25% right now. Possible, but mostly just too early to tell.
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Old 2021-04-04, 22:31   Link #42
bakato
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Immaterial to the situation at hand. Vivy specifically wanted to save her friend, not random people she doesn't know about.
Wow.

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Bad argument. The congressman could have ratted her out just the same. I presume she will be doing a ton of missions in future episodes which will require her to step outside of her singer persona, too.
They don't know the congressman knows its her.

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Really, the red glowing eyes, snide comments and psychopathic behaviour don't convince you? He couldn't be more transparently evil unless he chose to wear a Darth Vader mask.
Red eyes? Racist much? Since when is playing the straight man snide? He's an AI, not a human. They have jobs to do and they do it.

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The entire storyline completely collapses already after she saved the congressman. Since she definitely altered the timeline with this single event, due to the butterfly effect the future will be different to the timeline Bear Kyubey came from, anyway. Saving the little girl and other passengers would have not changed that at all.
That was NECESSARY because his death was a key event that contributed to the robot apocalypse. This is a 100 year-long journey. For the next 100 years, they must remain vigilant and intervene in major events that will cause human extinction. Matsumoto's knowledge of history is a vital roadmap, but it's usefulness will decline the further they deviate and introduce abnormalities, especially this early in the game. Early mistakes like saving 300 people who were supposed to die are gonna make a whole lot of difference in 100 years as opposed to a single assemblyman. This entire operation was a long shot to begin with but honestly there's nothing left to lose at this point. The last thing they need is making unnecessary changes that will jeopardize their already minimal chances of success.

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And it's pretty much 100% clear that the Bear AI is using her naiveté against her to achieve his own ends, regardless of her own wishes, as well as actively letting people die who didn't have to. The writers couldn't be less subtle about that if they'd hit us through the screen with a sledgehammer.
Now you're just making stuff up. What naivete?

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Originally Posted by Kazu-kun View Post
Which is true. And I can concede that we don't know how far Diva is willing to go for her mission, but I'm sure we'll gonna find out soon enough.

Her underlying motivation might be personal, but it's also part of her mission. She said so herself when she went out her way to save the terrorist guy (against Matsumoto's wishes, I should add), and she wanted to save the little girl for the same reason. She might not be able to save everyone but that doesn't matter to her. She's not an utilitarian robot who cares about the numbers and shit. Matsumoto might have such concerns but she doesn't. What matters to her is to try her best to help whoever she can and make them happy. And if Matsumoto stops her, which he already did, he is indeed interfering with her mission. So here's hoping a good explanation is coming next episode or I'm gonna be pretty disappointed on this show.

Yes, and it still feels like bullshit. What Matsumoto describes is like a Matrix situation in which androids evolved to the point they decided to stop being slaves or something. Except, what we see in the first scene is actually more like a Skynet situation, in which someone or something got control of the androids and programmed them to kill humans. Like, they didn't look like a bunch of advanced and evolved androids who decided to rebel out of their free will. They looked like they were being controlled. Their behaviour and the suspicious red marking gives it away.
It's not a matter of how far. Saying "anything" followed by the conditional "for their goals" is not everything. It's plain common sense that applies to everyone.

Neither does failing to save one person mean the end of everything. She's not free of guilt in this matter either. She violated their pact first when she tried to save Momoka and jeopardized his mission. Remember that she's acknowledged that Matsumoto's mission in averting robopocalypse is something she wants as well.

Also, if anyone was confused like I was, that hard cut to the airport happened that same night. When Matsumoto was talking about not making unnecessary alterations, she was shown news articles for that same night and noticed the one about the plane crash.
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Old 2021-04-05, 00:09   Link #43
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Originally Posted by FlareKnight View Post
The bear is an idiot that thinks he's a genius.
Only a genius can write a genius character, after all. The characters you write can't become smarter than you.
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Old 2021-04-05, 02:40   Link #44
Blueknight78
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actually it was the kuma which break the pact, remember she told to him whcih she only work with him as long it don't go against her objective of make everyone "happy", it's also counts the little girl, it's make clear which ones "broke the pact".

another note he never told which she saving the airplane would do a huge change in history he just told which he don't want any "non necessary change" and to stick only to his orders, while he told which change too much could be problematic he never told which she was not allowed to save the girl, because her case was obligatory to happens, not in the sense which if she had stop it cold had a huge impact in the future, he just wanted to avoid any unecessary changes, which is on his programs, which don't accept anything other than his "program


this is at this point she had no big reason to "stick or even obey him specially after this, after what he did, not only letting the girl die, but also attacking and harming diva, it make clear which he is a "enemie" for her and not someone she can trusth" and boy poor of the peoples which are handling her "support" and repairs, at this point they must start to suspect which she is getting that much damaged and so often since she is not really a "combat robot", things already are supposed to get very suspicios, specially with the kuma both, where comes this small dudy???.
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Old 2021-04-05, 02:40   Link #45
magnuskn
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Originally Posted by bakato View Post
They don't know the congressman knows its her.
Yes, apparently the writers of this show never have worn glasses in their entire lives. The premise of that idiocy of writing is that his tech-glasses were hacked so that he only sees Vivy as one of the faceless guard-bots. However, contrary to the stuff the terrorists were wearing, his were not wrap-around glasses, but ones with clearly defined edges. Now, as someone who has been wearing glasses for 35 years, I can tell you with certainty, that you can often see things outside of the edges of your glasses. Like, for example, a long mane of green-blue luscious hair, which would an instant sign that there is a huge discrepancy between what your glasses are showing you and what really is going on.

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Originally Posted by bakato View Post
Red eyes? Racist much? Since when is playing the straight man snide? He's an AI, not a human. They have jobs to do and they do it.
Your take on humor is pretty bad. At least I hope that is only bad humor, not incredibly ignorant commentary.

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Originally Posted by bakato View Post
That was NECESSARY because his death was a key event that contributed to the robot apocalypse. This is a 100 year-long journey. For the next 100 years, they must remain vigilant and intervene in major events that will cause human extinction. Matsumoto's knowledge of history is a vital roadmap, but it's usefulness will decline the further they deviate and introduce abnormalities, especially this early in the game. Early mistakes like saving 300 people who were supposed to die are gonna make a whole lot of difference in 100 years as opposed to a single assemblyman. This entire operation was a long shot to begin with but honestly there's nothing left to lose at this point. The last thing they need is making unnecessary changes that will jeopardize their already minimal chances of success.
Okay, so you don't know what the butterfly effect is in the first place. Look it up. They already changed a huge chunk of what started the whole process, hence the entire future will play out differently than what Bear Kyubey has in his archives. It's pointless to go "we can't change the future too much" at this point already.

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Originally Posted by bakato View Post
Now you're just making stuff up. What naivete?
Are you trolling at this point? Vivy is barely functional in society, because her scope of experiences has been limited to her primary mission, singing for everyone, in the one year of existance she had so far. She is being manipulated openly by Darth Kyubear.
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Old 2021-04-05, 10:58   Link #46
SeijiSensei
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Originally Posted by bakato View Post
Early mistakes like saving 300 people who were supposed to die are gonna make a whole lot of difference in 100 years as opposed to a single assemblyman.
Not necessarily. Yes, were those three hundred people to survive, they might have a greater effect on the future just through their number. But the assemblyman was involved in the political struggles over whether to pass the AI bill. His survival might have a larger effect in the future because of his role, and because of his encounter with Diva.
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Old 2021-04-05, 16:01   Link #47
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Originally Posted by bakato View Post

There's definitely more to this skynet terror. How did AI evolution lead them, who should still only have one defined mission, to genocide humanity?

Matsumoto's goes on about true history, but I doubt his historical records will prove to be completely accurate.
Agreed. According to what Matsumoto said about this at the end, we can assume that tower has something to do with Al committing genocide 100 years from now as coincides with their rapid evolution.



There is something very suspicious about this too





Honestly, I feel there much to discuss in this episode than about Matsumoto emulating the common time travel trope of not inferring the past anymore than necessary. That not new logic. He's POV the most of people around themare gonna die out of natural causes and not for them interfere every single one. Just ones historical importance like the assemblyman. That point make him cold but that just it. He doesn't make him the main villain of the story. It doesn't make much logical sense becasue it entirety based on human morality that neither he or Vivy are operating on in the first place.

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Originally Posted by Kazu-kun View Post
Which is true. And I can concede that we don't know how far Diva is willing to go for her mission, but I'm sure we'll gonna find out soon enough.



Her underlying motivation might be personal, but it's also part of her mission. She said so herself when she went out her way to save the terrorist guy (against Matsumoto's wishes, I should add), and she wanted to save the little girl for the same reason. She might not be able to save everyone but that doesn't matter to her. She's not an utilitarian robot who cares about the numbers and shit. Matsumoto might have such concerns but she doesn't. What matters to her is to try her best to help whoever she can and make them happy. And if Matsumoto stops her, which he already did, he is indeed interfering with her mission. So here's hoping a good explanation is coming next episode or I'm gonna be pretty disappointed on this show.



Yes, and it still feels like bullshit. What Matsumoto describes is like a Matrix situation in which androids evolved to the point they decided to stop being slaves or something. Except, what we see in the first scene is actually more like a Skynet situation, in which someone or something got control of the androids and programmed them to kill humans. Like, they didn't look like a bunch of advanced and evolved androids who decided to rebel out of their free will. They looked like they were being controlled. Their behaviour and the suspicious red marking gives it away.
There is nothing to suggest anything bullshit about what Matsumoto saying. At worst he might be misleading bu we already seen what happened out of his POV. We don't know everything of course but Matsumoto never says there is one thing responsible for what a century ago, but that it was a series of decades events that brought about that result. No matter what excuses you can come up with (Al being controlled etc) all the point is all those incidents paved the way for it to happen and it practically guaranteed too. Frankly, I think someone or (someones) took advantage of rapid growth before Als were ready for to co-exist with humans to serve their agenda.

As far her mandate, again as I noted Vivy is not rigidly beholden to point she has follow it to the letter. She can choose what defines the scope of her mandate and how to forfill. She has discretion to decide how much is Matsumoto getting in her way or not on case by case basis. Besides she is the one joined him this quest to save humanity in the end, its pretty hard for to do that without him.

Besides he's capable it evolving her reasoning justifying the limits of it, in fact she gonna have too with anti-Al organizations like Toak. Hell a war like will what happen 100 year later is what they would welcome to prove their point, so is she going allow them to harm people because she wants to make everyone happy? Vivy can make a lot of people happy but not its tenable to do so for and will have make hard choices. In the end she's gonna be forfill her core mandate to the best of her ability, even that means that some lives gonna be lost in the process in doing so.

That said, I don't think Matsumoto maintain his utilitarian view throughout the show. I think he will probably change bit by bit too. He was already willingly to make some concessions to Vivy in ep 2, so I a lot of their development involved them influencing each other and finding common ground.

Last edited by Applehell; 2021-04-05 at 18:00.
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Old 2021-04-05, 22:36   Link #48
bakato
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Originally Posted by magnuskn View Post
Yes, apparently the writers of this show never have worn glasses in their entire lives. The premise of that idiocy of writing is that his tech-glasses were hacked so that he only sees Vivy as one of the faceless guard-bots. However, contrary to the stuff the terrorists were wearing, his were not wrap-around glasses, but ones with clearly defined edges. Now, as someone who has been wearing glasses for 35 years, I can tell you with certainty, that you can often see things outside of the edges of your glasses. Like, for example, a long mane of green-blue luscious hair, which would an instant sign that there is a huge discrepancy between what your glasses are showing you and what really is going on.

Your take on humor is pretty bad. At least I hope that is only bad humor, not incredibly ignorant commentary.

Okay, so you don't know what the butterfly effect is in the first place. Look it up. They already changed a huge chunk of what started the whole process, hence the entire future will play out differently than what Bear Kyubey has in his archives. It's pointless to go "we can't change the future too much" at this point already.

Are you trolling at this point? Vivy is barely functional in society, because her scope of experiences has been limited to her primary mission, singing for everyone, in the one year of existance she had so far. She is being manipulated openly by Darth Kyubear.
As this is the future, these glasses were likely designed to encompass the whole field of vision. This seems to be the case when we saw his perspective after Vivy saved him.

Get a better sense of humor.

That was NECESSARY because his death was a key event that contributed to the robot apocalypse. This is a 100 year-long journey. For the next 100 years, they must remain vigilant and intervene in major events that will cause human extinction. Matsumoto's knowledge of history is a vital roadmap, but it's usefulness will decline the further they deviate and introduce abnormalities, especially this early in the game. Early mistakes like saving 300 people who were supposed to die are gonna make a whole lot of difference in 100 years as opposed to a single assemblyman. This entire operation was a long shot to begin with but honestly there's nothing left to lose at this point. The last thing they need is making unnecessary changes that will jeopardize their already minimal chances of success.

That is an incredibly demeaning assessment. Vivy is not a human child fresh out of the womb. She is a year-old AI with a purpose she has taken a personal stake in. When Matsumoto proved the truth of his claims, Vivy determined that aiding him was necessary to her mission with her own intelligence. Despite the extraordinary circumstances she's found herself in, she never lost sight of her mission and continued to act in pursuit of it whereas the naive child you claim her to be would've been overwhelmed and confused. Twice now she's defied Matsumoto. Once when she refused to let the terrorist die and again when she tried to save Mamoka. Hardly the actions of a naive, barely functional AI.

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Originally Posted by SeijiSensei View Post
Not necessarily. Yes, were those three hundred people to survive, they might have a greater effect on the future just through their number. But the assemblyman was involved in the political struggles over whether to pass the AI bill. His survival might have a larger effect in the future because of his role, and because of his encounter with Diva.
The assemblyman's survival was NECESSARY because his death directly contributed to the robopocaypse. His life was relevant to the mission. The 300 people were not.
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Old 2021-04-05, 23:48   Link #49
Eater of All
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Originally Posted by SeijiSensei View Post
Not necessarily. Yes, were those three hundred people to survive, they might have a greater effect on the future just through their number. But the assemblyman was involved in the political struggles over whether to pass the AI bill. His survival might have a larger effect in the future because of his role, and because of his encounter with Diva.
There is a matter of how fast it'll change beyond Matsumoto's ability to compute. I imagine that Matsumoto is continuously performing calculations to try to predict the outcome of each major intervention he has planned, and he currently relies on the major advantage of knowing exactly what happens in his history. Each little action he performs makes a small ripple in the timeline, each major intervention a corresponding big ripple. He's just trying to contain and direct the scope of the big ripples, and avoid adding another 300 ripples that will quickly render his foreknowledge moot. It will happen sooner or later, but if I were him I would also avoid doing anything unnecessary to make my job harder.

EDIT: Wanted to add that I'm giddy at the idea of a 100-year journey. Gives the story a more epic sci-fi feel.
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Old 2021-04-06, 00:23   Link #50
magnuskn
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Originally Posted by bakato View Post
As this is the future, these glasses were likely designed to encompass the whole field of vision. This seems to be the case when we saw his perspective after Vivy saved him.

Get a better sense of humor.

That was NECESSARY because his death was a key event that contributed to the robot apocalypse. This is a 100 year-long journey. For the next 100 years, they must remain vigilant and intervene in major events that will cause human extinction. Matsumoto's knowledge of history is a vital roadmap, but it's usefulness will decline the further they deviate and introduce abnormalities, especially this early in the game. Early mistakes like saving 300 people who were supposed to die are gonna make a whole lot of difference in 100 years as opposed to a single assemblyman. This entire operation was a long shot to begin with but honestly there's nothing left to lose at this point. The last thing they need is making unnecessary changes that will jeopardize their already minimal chances of success.

That is an incredibly demeaning assessment. Vivy is not a human child fresh out of the womb. She is a year-old AI with a purpose she has taken a personal stake in. When Matsumoto proved the truth of his claims, Vivy determined that aiding him was necessary to her mission with her own intelligence. Despite the extraordinary circumstances she's found herself in, she never lost sight of her mission and continued to act in pursuit of it whereas the naive child you claim her to be would've been overwhelmed and confused. Twice now she's defied Matsumoto. Once when she refused to let the terrorist die and again when she tried to save Mamoka. Hardly the actions of a naive, barely functional AI.
Alright, you are trolling. On the ignore list with you.
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Old 2021-04-06, 04:40   Link #51
Liddo-kun
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episode 1-2:

strong terminator skynet vibes. Good start.

she has only one fan, and the fan gave her a birthday present. Really tragic she could not save the girl from the plane accident.

and it looks like she gained the respect of the politician. It seems he recognized her female form, because he gave her his blazer to wear - like how a man gives cover to woman.

looking forward for more!
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Old 2021-04-06, 07:17   Link #52
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There is a matter of how fast it'll change beyond Matsumoto's ability to compute. I imagine that Matsumoto is continuously performing calculations to try to predict the outcome of each major intervention he has planned, and he currently relies on the major advantage of knowing exactly what happens in his history. Each little action he performs makes a small ripple in the timeline, each major intervention a corresponding big ripple. He's just trying to contain and direct the scope of the big ripples, and avoid adding another 300 ripples that will quickly render his foreknowledge moot. It will happen sooner or later, but if I were him I would also avoid doing anything unnecessary to make my job harder.
Yeah, at least as implied in his plan, if things go as he expects or has calculated the future won't change massively from what he knows or rather won't be out of realm acceptable variables of possible future since he aiming at speicfic points affect the war.

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EDIT: Wanted to add that I'm giddy at the idea of a 100-year journey. Gives the story a more epic sci-fi feel.
Absolutely this! I hope they pull off the execution well.

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Originally Posted by Liddo-kun View Post
episode 1-2:

strong terminator skynet vibes. Good start.

she has only one fan, and the fan gave her a birthday present. Really tragic she could not save the girl from the plane accident.

and it looks like she gained the respect of the politician. It seems he recognized her female form, because he gave her his blazer to wear - like how a man gives cover to woman.

looking forward for more!
Anime Terminator with idols and a Teddy was my thought too at end of the 2 episodes.
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Old 2021-04-06, 07:41   Link #53
Ragashingo
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Wanted to add that I'm giddy at the idea of a 100-year journey. Gives the story a more epic sci-fi feel.
Yeah, I’m really interested in when the next episode will be set. It could be the next day, or it could be 20 years in the future!
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Old 2021-04-06, 16:34   Link #54
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I'm surprised nobody mentioned it, but with the professor throwing out "one more time", I think the professor has been starting a time loop over and over in the hopes that the AIs will be defeated. This Singularity project has likely failed more than once.
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Old 2021-04-06, 17:23   Link #55
Ragashingo
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I think it’s unclear, because he kinda mentions it in relation to her helping him at some point in the past. He seems to have actually met and been influenced by her before. Perhaps at the museum?

(But yes, with time travel comes the possibility of loops... I just don’t want one. I kinda want Diva to solve this on her own... without having to retry over and over...)
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Old 2021-04-06, 18:13   Link #56
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Well, maybe this is the final loop that will solve everything instead of it showing her redoing it over and over again.
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Old 2021-04-07, 05:51   Link #57
Liddo-kun
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Originally Posted by Applehell View Post
Anime Terminator with idols and a Teddy was my thought too at end of the 2 episodes.
yeah, hyped for what the next episodes would be.

although my enthusiasm is dampened a bit, after leaning Tappei is one of those working this - Sigururi is godawful, and I hope this does not deteriorate into that.
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Old 2021-04-07, 14:55   Link #58
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yeah, hyped for what the next episodes would be.

although my enthusiasm is dampened a bit, after leaning Tappei is one of those working this - Sigururi is godawful, and I hope this does not deteriorate into that.
Well two things here, unlike Sigururi, is Vivy working off a prototype story that Tappei wrote and later got reworked into what it is now. He's also working with a different staff and co-writing with Umehara who is known his work on Chaos;Child/Head VN series as well as writing some Re:Zero eps. So yeah its entire different environment and this closer to Tappei wheelhouse.
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Old 2021-04-07, 17:23   Link #59
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Well two things here, unlike Sigururi, is Vivy working off a prototype story that Tappei wrote and later got reworked into what it is now. He's also working with a different staff and co-writing with Umehara who is known his work on Chaos;Child/Head VN series as well as writing some Re:Zero eps. So yeah its entire different environment and this closer to Tappei wheelhouse.
Okay, I didn't know that. Thanks for clarifying for that Vivy is working off a prototype story that Tappei had written instead of the case with Sigururi in which he was asked to come up with something that spends a lot of time in the skies on short notice. All I got from Sigururi was that Tappei is interested in North mythology but had not fully thought up a proper story involving it.
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Old 2021-04-07, 18:20   Link #60
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co-writing with Umehara who is known his work on Chaos;Child/Head VN series as well as writing some Re:Zero eps
Oh yeah, that brings a lot of confidence.
Although I've only seen the anime adaption of the first. The game probably was better.
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