Nisemonogatari - Episode 08 Discussion / Poll

[zarqu]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

A lot of fanfic writers write "just to have fun" rather than to write something that they think will be well-received by fellow fans. I know that I myself sometimes incorporate elements into my own fanfic writing that's just for personal shits and giggles.

Yeah, this is a good example. I think it will be awfully amusing to watch an entire adaption of someone else's personal "shits and giggles".

[Elestia]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Because otherwise you have a bridge to nowhere, and there's not much meaning in that, imo.

It can be unecessary, but if people respond positively or negatively to it then the meaning has been already established.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Given what Nise has been like all along, and given how overused the imouto fetish is, I honestly don't get people being that surprised over this episode. Nise has been very fanservice-driven almost all season, some of it rather absurd. Episode 8 amplifies it and takes it to a new extreme, but it doesn't represent a startling event given what came before, imo.

Really? I think giving people a toothbrush fetish counts as a startling event.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Like Archon_Wing wrote before on this thread, there's a certain arrogance to that.

I'd really like to see the bigger fans of this episode openly state that they can understand and respect why some of us just didn't find this particularly entertaining and/or worthwhile. I'd like to see the bigger fans of this episode accept the fact that some other viewers don't share their tastes, and that such taste differences is perfectly legitimate.

And I would like people to not narrow themselves so much by focusing on one particular scene and then give the episode the lowest score possible because of it. Really, it's fine if they don't like it, but it is bad criticism when people fault the entire episode on that particular scene. Ironically, there is a "certain arrogance to that" as you wrote

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Calling it original is giving it too much credit, imo. I'm sure that toothbrush-as-sex-toy has been tried before Nise. It is mildly creative because its certainly unusual, but calling it "original" is really stretching it.

It helps if you can give an example to illustrate your point. I cannot recall anything that holds a candle to what SHAFT just did with a toothbrush. Besides that, SHAFT took cliched concept and presented to the audience in a unique spin that makes it original. It's really similar to how Haruhi became such an internet phenomenon. Like Nise, Haruhi took a cliched setting, changed the premise slightly with great execution and presentation made it into an internet phenomenon. Combined with SHAFT's usual visual flairs and style they managed to deliver an experience that will make a long lasting impression on me and probably everyone who watched that scene. Even right now I'm unconsciously cataloging episode 8 in my mind as "DAT TOOTHBRUSH SCENE".

Originally Posted by Triple_R

There's some truth to this, depending on the depth and quality of the dialogue. This episode had decent dialogue, but it certainly wasn't one of Nishio's best handling of dialogue, or even close to it, imo.

I do not think Sol is arguing that this episode was "Nishio's best handling of dialogue", so what is your point?

Originally Posted by Malkuth

How can 115 vs 5 be polarizing What would 50 vs 50 then be

I think it is because 5 people gave this episode the lowest score possible. If you compare the other low scores given, there's an interesting polarizing effect going on there.

[Kirito]

What a major tease this episode was, the best...hands down! I hope we get to see more wincest!!!!

[Reckoner]

Thoughtful replies get thoughtful answers.

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

What were the elements that convinced you Shinobu's bath scene had meaning beyond fanservice, and why do you think that there aren't actually similar elements here? You say that the focus of this episode is an "extravagant/new-age fetish". We say that it's focus is on Koyomi's relationship with Karen. However much it functions as fanservice, Koyomi and Karen's relationship moving towards elements of explicit and/or self-aware/self-conscious romantic attraction to each other is pretty significant. It has implications regarding Koyomi's relationship with the rest of his family, as well as his relationships with other girls, as well as his committed relationship with his girlfriend. The conclusion at the end of the episode is that Karen and Koyomi have gotten a "little bit" closer. How much is that "little bit", and how will it affect the rest of the story? Saying that this episode featured "no plot" or was "pure fanservice" can't be correct, because the development here will have actual impacts on the rest of the story.

Not directed at me but I wanted to reply to this.

At least when I say this had zero interesting character development or plot I'm saying it probably contains nothing more than a tease or fetish fuel. Let me first explain how I saw the Shinobu scene and then I'll get back to this one.

The Shinobu scene was charged and was more explicit overall about everything in general. That's pretty much true. However, the conversation she had with Koyomi did many things. Oshino's existence was officially replaced in a suitably believable manner. Shinobu's personality was officially established in the anime, we knew next to nothing about her previously. The nature of her relationship with Koyomi was revealed. A bit of a begrudging acceptance of each other, though they seem to share affection. It also touched up further on a little bit of Koyomi's existential crisis. How is he as a vampire going to live out his life, will he outlive everybody? To me this was all meaty characterization and guess what? The entire time the dialogue was crisp, lively and fun, as you would expect from Monogatari.

Now compared this long drawn out episode with Karen and Araragi. They seem to be establishing sexual tension between the two. However, will this story ever truly go that route? I doubt it, and if it did, this would be instantly dropped for crap plot development (Just because it's development, doesn't mean it's particularly interesting or good development). In the end I can't know, but I am pretty assured from my experience of watching shows that this will never amount to more than a tease.

But OK, they established sexual tension and they established she admires Kanbaru. Maybe this will have some bearing on the plot, and Nisio will try to be "clever," but Nisio's cleverness does not simply earn the story points as a matter of fact for me. If the things he later brings into relevance were uninteresting and stupid to me to begin with, well damn I am not going to care. Believe me I respect Nisio in general especially after what I saw of him in Katangatari and Bake in, but to me he's just messing around way too much now. Though I still think Shinbo amplified the issues here with his usual egotistical style.

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

To expand on the "not getting the joke" thing, I want to ask the detractors this:
In observing the writing and execution of this episode see how SHAFT/Nishio Ishin himself might have had fun writing/animating this part of the series? Can you see how, as an author, Nishio's enjoyment as he was writing it came not from the gratuitous/pornographic quality of the passages but rather the absurdity and outrageousness of the situation he was writing? Can you also see how, in SHAFT's choice of BGM and all the exaggerated effects in the animation (Araragi's sinister faces, etc.), the animators were utilizing great humour and creativity in adapting the scene for this audience? Could you then see how, as these intricately crafted markers of unexpected intensity mingled into the unpredictable eroticism, people were surprised and enjoyed this episode in the same spirit of lighthearted absurdity?

A lot of questions so I'll just answer generally.

I'm pretty sure Nisio had fun with this. I'm not so cynical to believe that he wrote this little skit with the only thoughts in his mind being, "Damn how can I get people's money... I know the most ridiculous and absurd fanservice possible!" There is probably genuine thought and passion into the craft he has. If you notice the whole time I've been attacking Shinbo more than Nisio because while I disagree with what he tried to do here, I hardly doubt he delivered it with such an egotistical sense of direction that Shinbo employed in this episode. And believe me, Shinbo milked this for all its worth (He explicitly said in the past he makes anime for the money, I am cynical when it comes to him).

However, authors may have intentions and they may genuinely try to do something they think is interesting, and in the end... I might not like it. Does not matter if I don't get it or not, I just thought it was a bad idea. To be honest, I thought part of the problem with this scene besides employing it with the wrong characters, drawing it out too long in a grandeur manner, and establishing little to no plot was the fact that I thought it wasn't absurd enough. I'm not talking about directing here, but content. The grandeur and egotistical nature of Shinbo's directing this episode just did not match the content. It simply wasn't as racy or titillating as one would expect for fanservice. It was just boring, the worst kind of bad to me.

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

SHAFT and Nishio's fun as author/creators was successfully translated through the anime across to a happily receptive audience. That is what these positive reactions and ratings represent. Would there really be any point in looking down on those experiences?

If people enjoy it, all the more power to them. As I said before, I can only comment on how I see it.

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

Why does the development have to "go somewhere" in order for it to have meaning? Bakemonogatari, and Nisemonogatari after it, are "talking anime", where both the enjoyment and the meaning comes from the character interaction in itself. The present developments will have repercussions in all future interactions with Karen, and Araragi's interactions with other characters relating to Karen as well.

All sorts of shows have more mundane interactions and that's fine. However, we're talking about a show who prides itself on stretching conversations to their limit. Often its entertaining, sometimes a bit over indulgent isntead. Nisemonogatari specifically though has had glacial pacing though. Bake was much more crisp and refined in comparison. The indulgences are worst than ever. To me Bake was at its best when it didn't try to lay it on too thick in any one particular scene. Even though for comparison we had a long scene with Hitagi dressing in like episode 2 of Bake, even though a good amount of the dialogue was more comedic at first, it quickly translated over to more pertinent information about what was going on and revealed more about their personalities (Stuff that wasn't simply silly).

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

The point of the interactions this time, for their part, were also in the interactions themselves. The exaggerated humour and absurdity already justify Koyomi and Karen's adventures with a toothbrush. My point was moreso that, towards people who weren't able to find enjoyment in those scenes on that level, even so they shouldn't write off those scenes as unnecessary or irrelevant because they will have impacts on future developments.

OK. Let me rephrase. They might use it as a forced stunt to bring them closer and give sexual tension between the two. Fine. Do I think that is a good direction to take with their relationship? No, it's just a tease and is stupid to me. Do I think this will have led to anything that significant that wasn't already established? Definitely not. If Nisio proves me wrong, lets see it, but for now I'll say this... It's irrelevant in the sense it will generate almost no interesting development for me.

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

The principle advice I can offer here is only that, in my experience, Nishio remembers his details and characters. Even within these adaptations into anime, we have already seen several callbacks in this manner towards various details of Bakemonogatari. My other detailed experience with Nishio's work, Medaka Box, also shares this characteristic. So I can only say that, for any insignificant event that you pick up on in these series--don't worry, Nishio will remember it.

In this case though, is it something worth remembering? My answer is no.

[DragoZERO]

What did I just watch!? My god... brushing her teeth.... I am in shock........

........Eri Kitamara was perfect too. Damn.... using a toothbrush........

LOL at the poll.

This will go down in anime history forever.

[apr]

I think the complainers are underestimating just how important the toothbrush scene was. It is without a shadow of a doubt the absolute best scene in the entire novel series, and every Nishio fan knows that the only reason to produce a Nisemonogatari anime would be to animate that specific scene. Giving it anything less than an episode would have been sacrilege, and everyone would have boycotted the blu-rays.

[Proto]

^

*can't stop laughing my ass off*

Oh Nisemonogatari. You just make my day every time.

Now on serious mode

It is without a shadow of a doubt the absolute best scene in the entire novel series

I think you are making a very serious disservice to the series and Nisio's writing if you seriously think that.

[Master_Yoma]

What the hell did I just watch

[00Coyote]

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

The principle advice I can offer here is only that, in my experience, Nishio remembers his details and characters. Even within these adaptations into anime, we have already seen several callbacks in this manner towards various details of Bakemonogatari. My other detailed experience with Nishio's work, Medaka Box, also shares this characteristic. So I can only say that, for any insignificant event that you pick up on in these series--don't worry, Nishio will remember it.

Now that I think about it, Araragi's choice of a toothbrush as a test may be an indirect callback to the first part of Bakemonogatari. My connection refuses to stream, so I can't re-watch that particular part. (and I refuse to download Horrible Subs.)

Spoiler for From Bakemonogatari:

When Araragi was first assaulted by Hitagi, there was a mention of how he had to go to the dentist at one point, and it scared him for life, so he made sure to keep his teeth in perfect condition. Then in the character commentary on that episode, Hitagi makes the comment that Araragi had really good teeth.

Spoiler for From the LN:

First she had me open my mouth with the thin cutter-knife, and followed up with the stapler – the level of premeditation in her plan was frightening.

Damn, the last time I had things stuck into my mouth was when I was undergoing treatment for a tooth infection. So that I never had to repeat that experience, I brushed my teeth every day, I chewed gum to remove parasites- But now, I was faced with a situation just as bad... but this time, I didn't have any gum that might somehow get rid of a stapler. Or a knife.

What a way to trip someone up.

Araragi is no stranger to dental hygiene.

[Elestia]

New fetish indeed. Just found this comment on a blog and just had to post this.

Spoiler for What is it?:

This is a useful tool, commonly found in the range of 6 inches long, the functioning of which is enjoyed by members of both sexes. It is usually found hung, dangling loosely, ready for instant action. It boasts of a clump of little hairy things at one end and a small hole at the other. In use, it is quickly inserted, almost always willingly, sometimes slowly, sometimes quickly, into a warm, fleshy, moist opening where it is thrust in and drawn out again and again many times in succession, often quickly and accompanied by squirming bodily movements. Anyone found listening in will most surely recognize the rhythmic, pulsing sound resulting from the well-lubricated movements. When finally withdrawn, it leaves behind a juicy, frothy, sticky white substance, some of which will need cleaning from the outer surfaces of the opening and some from its long glistening shaft. After everything is done and the flowing and cleansing liquids have ceased emanating, it is returned to its freely hanging state of rest, ready for yet another bit of action, hopefully reaching its bristling climax twice or three times a day, but often much less. What is it?

[0utf0xZer0]

First time I watched this episode I hated it. However, as with several other cases of subpar scenes in Bake/Nise, I enjoyed it far, far more the second time through.

If I had to cite a culprit, it would be Koyomi's internal monologues, which I paid less attention to the second time. I know that Shaft was probably trying to remain true to the source (always a big deal for otaku-oriented productions), but I think the scene would have been far, far better if they had cut all of Koyomi's lines after "Kanbaru-sensei's fetishtic ideas will lead to your defeat" until the Tsuhiki shows up. Show don't tell, and let the viewer wonder if it's "really happening" and "Koyomi couldn't possible be that much of a creep, right? He always resists Nadeko, after all.". Besides, Koyomi's interactions with girls are always full of teasing/trolling - I'd go so far as to say the teasing/trolling interactions are the special sauce that makes Bakemonogatari's fanservice so great.

Plus, the monologues were kind of squicky too, which honestly ruined some of my enjoyment. I mean yeah, we know Koyomi has groped Mayoi before, but there was always this tongue in cheek "it's just a bit of roughousing gone too far" element to it. Here, not so much.

I guess my general opinion could be summed up as "could have been great, but due to some bad decision it's not nearly as good as most of the service in the show". Mainly because it doesn't nail the teasing nature of most Monogatari fanservice.

[Essa Maneira]

That episode makes me excited to watch those two doing on the bed. Toothbrush makes even feel better on my perspective.

10/10 for me.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Elestia

It can be unecessary, but if people respond positively or negatively to it then the meaning has been already established.

I disagree. People can respond positively or negatively to senseless violence, for example, but that doesn't make the violence any less senseless (i.e. give it meaning).

Really? I think giving people a toothbrush fetish counts as a startling event.

Yes, really. It's not much of a toothbrush fetish if all it's going to be used for is cleaning the teeth and mouth. This episode really was quite silly, and not even believable, imo. It reminds me of a lot of some other cases of SHAFT being SHAFT silliness that you'll see sometimes. I like SHAFT, but there's no question that Shinbo sometimes takes it over the line into total silliness.

If you're going to start a new fetish, the way it's executed should at least be half-way plausible, imo, and it wasn't here.

And I would like people to not narrow themselves so much by focusing on one particular scene and then give the episode the lowest score possible because of it.

Some critics could easily say that they would like people to not narrow themselves so much by focusing on one particular scene and then give the episode the highest score possible because of it and it alone.

The way a lot of the 10/10 folks have talked on this thread, this scene is the reason why they gave 10/10. So if one scene alone can warrant the highest score possible, then why shouldn't one scene alone warrant the lowest score possible?

If you're going to criticize 1/10 voters for this shouldn't you also criticize 10/10 voters who made that vote due to one scene?

Really, it's fine if they don't like it, but it is bad criticism when people fault the entire episode on that particular scene.

I disagree. If a scene ruins an episode for you then it ruined the episode for you. It's not narrow, especially when you consider that what came at the end of an episode can shape your understanding of what came before it.

Ironically, there is a "certain arrogance to that" as you wrote

I don't think so. There's no arrogance in simply being honest about how much a particular scene affected you personally and your enjoyment of an episode.

Besides that, SHAFT took cliched concept and presented to the audience in a unique spin that makes it original.

I disagree. I do not consider this to be original at all. What determines originality is the idea or premise behind something, not the mere vehicle used to achieve it, imo.

It's really similar to how Haruhi became such an internet phenomenon. Like Nise, Haruhi took a cliched setting, changed the premise slightly with great execution and presentation made it into an internet phenomenon. Combined with SHAFT's usual visual flairs and style they managed to deliver an experience that will make a long lasting impression on me and probably everyone who watched that scene.

I very much doubt it'll leave a long lasting impression on me, so I disagree with you here.

Even right now I'm unconsciously cataloging episode 8 in my mind as "DAT TOOTHBRUSH SCENE".

Didn't you just say that people shouldn't judge an entire episode by a lone scene? That strikes me as being a bit inconsistent with cataloging an entire episode by reference to one lone scene within it.

I do not think Sol is arguing that this episode was "Nishio's best handling of dialogue", so what is your point?

My point is that his argument is most valid when Nishio's dialogue is at its best. When it's not at its best, character interactions can become less effective, hence causing them to take less of a center-stage role.

[sa547]

Oh, man, even Gen has a reaction:
https://twitter.com/#!/Butch_Gen/sta...56966801297408

Regaining my sanity enough to work after Nisemonogatari 8 is going to be very difficult

His followers reacted:

@Butch_Gen seen you doing anyway toothpaste or how would!
@Butch_Gen anime teacher and staff Nishio dreadful · do not you came back from the distant future is absolutely reason I saw was two times · talk · God has just bought!
@Butch_Gen I think and I do brush your teeth.

[HandofFate]

I've brushed my dog's teeth many times, and he always hates it.
maybe i'm doing it wrong.

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Now that we know this chapter was created not for mass market, but for the author's personal pleasure, the question is this;

Which is selling out, and which is art? To create something you genuinely personally enjoy creating? Or to make something that gets high acclaim by adhering to social demands?

I can't help but feel some of the rage is similar to those generated in Haruhi's infamous Endless Eight incident.

Sometimes, people take a risk. They create something they wanted to make, something unorthodox, and with not a care about public opinion.

The question is, would you like that to cease? Would you like anime and novels to be written according to the whims of opinion polls? Does the author's vision mean so little, that one should over-ride their wishes and demand something else?

[Archon_Wing]

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

Now that we know this chapter was created not for mass market, but for the author's personal pleasure, the question is this;

Which is selling out, and which is art? To create something you genuinely personally enjoy creating? Or to make something that gets high acclaim by adhering to social demands?

I can't help but feel some of the rage is similar to those generated in Haruhi's infamous Endless Eight incident.

Sometimes, people take a risk. They create something they wanted to make, something unorthodox, and with not a care about public opinion.

The question is, would you like that to cease? Would you like anime and novels to be written according to the whims of opinion polls? Does the author's vision mean so little, that one should over-ride their wishes and demand something else?

No. They can write whatever they want, and I will say whatever I want. They can take whatever risks they want, but they will also accept consequences like random people on the internet complaining about it. Like they care.

And if they don't care about public opinion, this is pretty moot anyways.

False dilemma is false dilemma. Things don't justify themselves. I won't play that game.

[Kaoru Chujo]

It's great to hear so many differing shades of opinion. For what it's worth, here are some of my shades:

1. In general, I think Nise is at a lower level than Bake. But maybe that's because doing a similar thing a second time has less impact. In any case, it seems to me that the fanservicey surface is a bit stronger and the character/interaction depth a bit weaker. But what a surface! And the characters and their interactions are still pretty great.

2. The toothbrushing scene is among the most erotic I've seen in anime. I disagree completely with the idea that it is less effective than other fanservice in this show. This is a classic. Of course, so was the Shinobu/Koyomi bathing scene, although it was not particularly erotic.

3. For me, it is certainly possible for an unoriginal premise to be presented in an original way. However, I think you have to be pretty general to define anything unoriginal about this scene. Like "erotic feelings between an older brother and a younger sister." Everything else seems original.

4. I think there is usually meaning in the supposed silliness that people call "Shaft being Shaft." And even when the meaning is less obvious, I think of the "silliness" as "absurdity," which is a conceptually higher thing.

5. Even though there is no chance that Koyomi and Karen will really hook up, that does not detract from but contributes to the erotic tension of the scene, for me.

6. Shinbou may have said that he does it for the money, but that is just Shinbou being Shinbou. Most artists do all their best work for money. Money is only part of the motivation. Once you start to work, your creativity takes over.

[Sol Falling]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

About "not getting the joke": You can get a joke and still not find it funny. Take a racist joke for example (not saying this episode is anywhere near that; just using this to demonstrate a point). I can understand what such a racist joke is getting at, but not find it funny.

Humour being subjective, I don't think such a state qualifies as truly "getting it". You might understand the intent behind the telling of the joke, but if you cannot yourself find the least bit of humour in receiving it, then I wager you are not understanding the audience which appreciates it.

Now, one might well feel that there is no good reason to attempt to "understand" racists. But anime is a matter of entertainment; and in Nisemonogatari's case, mass entertainment, representing the enjoyment of a very sizeable audience. All human perspectives deserving at least some level of base respect and dignity, at least on trivial matters such as these regarding fiction and entertainment, I do not feel there is any meaning in criticizing the enjoyment of that majority.

That is to say, like another poster said, I do feel regret that some people were not satisfied with this episode. However, those people who were not satisfied should also try to balance their own dissatisfaction with the enjoyment of so many others over this episode.

No. I honestly think this is a bit naive. My suspicion is that Nishio's enjoyment came primarily (if not solely) from the gratuitous/pornographic quality of the passages.

It's statements like these which occasionally make me think you might be more cynical than myself, Triple_R. :P As a matter of gratuity, there is a lot more you could do beyond a rather tame scene of a sibling brushing the teeth of another. Given the level of even some other works which Ishin himself has published, I would also assure you Nishio is/was aware of such possibilities. For pornography, there is actual porn; all the moreso if Nishio was never going to publish it. On that basis, I present the hypothesis that the actual justification/amusement Nishio found for that scene's creation was in the absurd context supporting the erotica (brushing the teeth of one's sister).

I found the BGM extremely cheesy. It thankfully lowered the squick level, but also made it impossible for me to take this scene seriously at all, undermining any significant character development that could be read into it. The Looney Tunes-esque bit certainly didn't help here.

This is part of where it's helpful to, as I suggested, take "everything and nothing" seriously. As a matter of fact, life and people themselves do not always have meaning, or are not always serious. Nisemonogatari's publication, as a work of self-amusement for Nishio, itself seems to be an example of this. If we accept this premise, then the point which I was getting at would be that while there is nothing at all which says you have to take the scenes or character interactions themselves seriously, you do have to understand that they are part of Nisemonogatari's world. As such, even events which occur in these "non-serious" sequences will have repurcussions, with every chance of impacting even serious developments down the line.

One prominent example of this which I do now have knowledge of regards a previous example of fanservice which I remember you noted as seeming ill-fitting as an introduction to the series--namely Hanekawa's panty-shot. I think certain posters (such as Malkuth) might be able to provide a better summary of why that event actually has a surprising degree of significance, but if you are interested I would be willing to make an attempt myself in explaining it, perhaps over PM as you suggested.

Because otherwise you have a bridge to nowhere, and there's not much meaning in that, imo.

On one level, I would callback here to the point I have just made previously, that even life and people themselves do not always have meaning--a fact which thematically Nisemonogatari actually seems to be keenly aware of (noting Kaiki's comments regarding himself and Senjougahara as non-"dramatic" characters, whose lives and conflicts in "reality" do not actually have any special significance.).

In the same way it could probably be said that the *monogatari series as a whole is simply a trivial story regarding Araragi and his relationships. The narrative simply records Koyomi and his journey, the only two finite possible end points apparently being an eternity of solitude together with Shinobu, or a "proper" life as a redeemed human together with Hitagi. As an intermediate step on this journey, comes Koyomi's current entanglement with Karen (who has now twice openly stated she is in love with him). Even if this romantic/sexual tension never leads to an actual relationship, it must still at the least receive a resolution by narrative necessity (for example: what sort of developments will result upon Karen discovering that Koyomi has a girlfriend in Hitagi?).

If you like that sort of thing. Clearly not everybody does.

I don't get why fans of this episode seemingly can't accept this. The sense I'm getting from a lot of the fans of this episode is an assumption that everybody's taste in comedy, fanservice, etc... has to be the same as theirs or the person with a different taste is somehow horribly "biased".

Like Archon_Wing wrote before on this thread, there's a certain arrogance to that.

I'd really like to see the bigger fans of this episode openly state that they can understand and respect why some of us just didn't find this particularly entertaining and/or worthwhile. I'd like to see the bigger fans of this episode accept the fact that some other viewers don't share their tastes, and that such taste differences is perfectly legitimate.

My position is basically that if some people didn't like this episode, then that's unfortunate, but they should also take into account the positive reception from a large part of the rest of this community as well as the general reception across the internet (and, of especial interest, in Japan as well). Certainly it is fine for them to hold onto their own opinion, but there is no need to begrudge the praise from the people who did enjoy it and, to the extent that they choose to engage in discussion, they should attempt to understand the other side. I don't have any trouble acknowledging the validity of opinions which simply state that they did not share in the enjoyment of the other side; however, I think it's necessary to state that any attempts to "objectively" offer any criticism of the episode should both take into account and not attempt to disrespect the enjoyment of the rest of the audience at large.

[Triple_R]

Given how far the originality vs. unoriginality argument has gone, I just searched for "toothbrush as a sex toy" on Google. I'd link to some of what I brought up, but I'm not sure it would be appropriate given AS rules. So I'd just encourage other people curious about it to try it themselves.

Based on my search, toothbrush as a sex toy is a lot more common than I had ever imagined.