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View Poll Results: F/SN UBW TV - Episode 15 Rating
Perfect 10 23 43.40%
9 out of 10 : Excellent 14 26.42%
8 out of 10 : Very Good 12 22.64%
7 out of 10 : Good 2 3.77%
6 out of 10 : Average 1 1.89%
5 out of 10 : Below Average 1 1.89%
4 out of 10 : Poor 0 0%
3 out of 10 : Bad 0 0%
2 out of 10 : Very Bad 0 0%
1 out of 10 : Painful 0 0%
Voters: 53. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2015-04-22, 17:28   Link #141
Soraya21
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Ilya's death scene was the highlight of the episode for me, done far better than the LN version imho, which had felt needlessly grotesque for added shock value. Her emotional walls braking after Berserker's defeat as Ilya regresses back to being a lonely little girl. And then there's Gilgamesh who isn't being overly brutal or mocking in his heinous acts, just carried out with a calm, cold apathy. Wonderfully done.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Levani View Post
I hate the fact that Kirei gets defeated so anti-climactic way in Fate and UBW.

Ufotable, I have hope, my lords and saviors.
Ditto. Especially after seeing how much of a threat he can truly be in Zero. It's only in Heaven's Feel where I feel that Shirou - having grown the most as a fighter in that route - serves as a worthy opponent for Kirei in their final confrontation. Shirou vs Gil in UBW route read more like a clash of ideology rather than an actual battle, while Shirou vs Kirei in Fate route was just plain blah & simply doesn't add up when we know what the ex-priest is really capable of.
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Old 2015-04-22, 19:55   Link #142
Randomzx
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ImperialKnight View Post
I don't see why Hercules, who's an even superior swordsman, can't do the same but the reason he's handicapped is because not only is he defending himself but he has to defend Illya. Even Gil admits it. If Illya wasn't there I don't see why we wouldn't see him having similar results like Lancelot, Shiro and Saber.
Heracles was heavily nerfed by being a Berserker, because it sealed much of his fighting ability along with his Eye of Mind (near precognition ability). And most damning of all it sealed the active NP (Only Lancelot could bypass much the negative impact of the madness enchantment thanks to a skill that allows him to retain his fighting ability no matter the hinderance).

He would actually be far more effective in other classes, since it allows him to use his skill to the full ability, and allow him to use Nine Lives/Hundred Shooting Heads.
Nasu even stated that the Archer class would be the most effectively class for him, especially with the Hydra Bow.

Fate/complete material III: World material - FAQ with Nasu: Servants, p.133
Quote:
Q: About Herakles who was summoned as Berserker, it seems like he can become Saber or Archer. If he had been summoned in a different class, which class would it be that he could demonstrate his true power the most?

A: Surprisingly, it would be Archer. Archer is a ranger so it's a pretty comfortable class to someone like him who overcame many trials with knowledge and resourcefulness.

So why he wasn't summoned in any other class? It was stated the Einzbern was incredibly paranoid about betrayal after the previous war. And they felt they especially can't trust Heracles to obey them given what they know of his myth. And it was also partially Illya's fault since she took away his sanity as revenge for the immense pain she suffered at first.
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Old 2015-04-22, 19:59   Link #143
Randomzx
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GreyZone View Post
All 3 routes were either anti-climatic or asspulls regarding Kirei.


Fate: "Shirou catching Kirei off-guard" long enough for running right up to him, stabbing him, and punching the place he just stabbed. Kirei: "Kung-Fu? What was that again? Something to eat? You say I know it? Nah, no way! Me? A super strong executor? Haha, you jest!"

UBW: Dat backstab

HF: "lulz, my 'time' is over, bye"
The VN made it clear that Kotomine was caught off guard by Shirou being able to burst out of the grail mud AND MOST IMPORTANTLY the identity of the dagger. He was so surprised that he was STILL staring at the dagger long after he was stabbed, since it was the same weapon he used to kill Tokiomi. He's basically shocked at its sudden appearance, wondered why Shirou would be the one to have that, and befuddled at the irony of it.
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Old 2015-04-22, 22:27   Link #144
AnimeFan188
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Randomzx View Post
Heracles was heavily nerfed by being a Berserker, because it sealed much of his fighting ability along with his Eye of Mind (near precognition ability). And most damning of all it sealed the active NP (Only Lancelot could bypass much the negative impact of the madness enchantment thanks to a skill that allows him to retain his fighting ability no matter the hinderance).

He would actually be far more effective in other classes, since it allows him to use his skill to the full ability, and allow him to use Nine Lives/Hundred Shooting Heads.
Nasu even stated that the Archer class would be the most effectively class for him, especially with the Hydra Bow.

Fate/complete material III: World material - FAQ with Nasu: Servants, p.133



So why he wasn't summoned in any other class? It was stated the Einzbern was incredibly paranoid about betrayal after the previous war. And they felt they especially can't trust Heracles to obey them given what they know of his myth. And it was also partially Illya's fault since she took away his sanity as revenge for the immense pain she suffered at first.
"Hera, always an antagonist of Hercules, drove him mad in which state he
mistakenly killed Megara and their children."

See:

http://www.calgarycoin.com/reference/myth/myhercul.htm


So Hercules being a berserker is mythologically appropriate, I suppose.

Too bad we didn't get to see an encounter between Berserkules and Caster
(Medea). That would've been interesting.
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Old 2015-04-22, 22:39   Link #145
Rising Dragon
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Such an encounter did happen in at least one route, but it was off-screen. A shame, really, because it was also Berserker vs. Assassin.
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Old 2015-04-22, 22:53   Link #146
Moekou
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AnimeFan188 View Post
"Hera, always an antagonist of Hercules, drove him mad in which state he
mistakenly killed Megara and their children."

See:

http://www.calgarycoin.com/reference/myth/myhercul.htm


So Hercules being a berserker is mythologically appropriate, I suppose.

Too bad we didn't get to see an encounter between Berserkules and Caster
(Medea). That would've been interesting.
Yep, in fact both Berserkers in the 4th and 5th war went insane for a period of time in their myths, but that's often overlooked due to their widespread fame and acclaim, so people still usually only remember them for being the greatest warriors.
Spoiler for Fate Zero:
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Old 2015-04-23, 04:08   Link #147
Dengar
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Of course they went insane. Becoming insane at some point in their lives is a requirement to be eligible for the Berserker class.

Note that that Berserker does not nerf their combat ability per se (although it can reduce their effectiveness in some areas) It just disables their ability to use anything that requires more thought than basic instinct. Which is why Herakles can still make use of his agility to dodge like a pro.

That's quite unlike Lancelot's skill that lets him use his combat ability at max efficiency, which is able to bypass that restriction altogether, making him able to use 20th century weapons and all that jazz.
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Old 2015-04-23, 06:36   Link #148
sumthing
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First rule of the Holy Grail War is: You have to protect your master. If they die, you lose. Everyone knows that.

I find stupid that this is used as an excuse to why Herakles loses so badly. And the VN says nothing about it. Another point is that Shinji was there too, and he was unscathed at the end of the fight.

Even if I accept that "he was protecting Illya thing", she should had stayed in a safe place.
As a magus you are supposed to have a big advantage at your own terrain, she sensed Gil invasions and only because of stupid confidence hanged with him to battle.
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Old 2015-04-23, 06:46   Link #149
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Illya is usually safest around Berserker as anyone who needs to kill her needs to get past him. And Berserker is OP enough that it doesn't matter how cautious she is: he could defeat several Servants who allied together.

Gilgamesh is the problem: he is above any Servant and nobody expects someone as strong as him (especially since nobody even knows he is part of the HGW5). Even if Illya did hide or try to run away, Gil would have killed both of them. As a matter of fact, Berserker would have done worse because his obsessive care for Illya's safety made him extra ferocious.
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Old 2015-04-23, 06:49   Link #150
sumthing
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Originally Posted by Nayrael View Post
Illya is usually safest around Berserker as anyone who needs to kill her needs to get past him. And Berserker is OP enough that it doesn't matter how cautious she is: he could defeat several Servants who allied together.

Gilgamesh is the problem: he is above any Servant and nobody expects someone as strong as him (especially since nobody even knows he is part of the HGW5). Even if Illya did hide or try to run away, Gil would have killed both of them. As a matter of fact, Berserker would have done worse because his obsessive care for Illya's safety made him extra ferocious.
Yeah, that's true, without Illya around the fight would be even more vexing, for Berserker would not had the extra strength to break the chains at the end... his best feat.
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Old 2015-04-23, 08:54   Link #151
TwilightsCall
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Quote:
I find stupid that this is used as an excuse to why Herakles loses so badly. And the VN says nothing about it. Another point is that Shinji was there too, and he was unscathed at the end of the fight.
First of all, the VN makes very clear mention that if Berserker fought normally, Illya would have been slaughtered immediately. To quote the VN:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Day 13
He will not reach the man. But he still challenges the man because there is something he cannot give up.

----Then what is he moving forward for?

Servants fight for their Master, to protect the Master's life.
That is why the giant does not retreat.
He can only move forward as a shield to protect the frightened Master behind him.

The giant continues his foolish advancement.
It is because he knows that he needs to take all the attacks in order to beat the Servant without having his Master killed.

Also keep in mind Gil was literally there for the sole purpose of getting to Illya. Her hiding wouldn't have had all that much of a difference.

In the original VN, Berserker had even fewer options against Gil. He showed up and attacked, and if either Illya or Berserker moved at all, Gil would have obliterated her. Berserker's only option was to rush in a straight line at Gil or else she would have been toast. And considering he can't think thanks to Mad Enhancement, even if it were possible to find a safe place to hide Illya, it wouldn't be a plan Berserker would be capable of carrying out. His strongest instinct is to protect her, so naturally he's going to do everything he can to stay close enough that he can do so - especially when his opponent is an Archer.

The ufotable version of the fight gave him a lot more freedom, but in the end it was the same thing. He was in a fight where taking one step away from his master meant certain defeat. If you remember back to the Saber vs Berserker fight, you'll see how agile Berserker could have been, but doing so while carrying Illya would be as dangerous as leaving her to Gil's mercy.


Also as an aside, I didn't realize that Berserker actually broke the chains in the VN as well. I thought it was a ufotable original. The more you know!
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Old 2015-04-23, 12:24   Link #152
sumthing
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Originally Posted by TwilightsCall View Post
First of all, the VN makes very clear mention that if Berserker fought normally, Illya would have been slaughtered immediately. To quote the VN:




Also keep in mind Gil was literally there for the sole purpose of getting to Illya. Her hiding wouldn't have had all that much of a difference.

In the original VN, Berserker had even fewer options against Gil. He showed up and attacked, and if either Illya or Berserker moved at all, Gil would have obliterated her. Berserker's only option was to rush in a straight line at Gil or else she would have been toast. And considering he can't think thanks to Mad Enhancement, even if it were possible to find a safe place to hide Illya, it wouldn't be a plan Berserker would be capable of carrying out. His strongest instinct is to protect her, so naturally he's going to do everything he can to stay close enough that he can do so - especially when his opponent is an Archer.

The ufotable version of the fight gave him a lot more freedom, but in the end it was the same thing. He was in a fight where taking one step away from his master meant certain defeat. If you remember back to the Saber vs Berserker fight, you'll see how agile Berserker could have been, but doing so while carrying Illya would be as dangerous as leaving her to Gil's mercy.


Also as an aside, I didn't realize that Berserker actually broke the chains in the VN as well. I thought it was a ufotable original. The more you know!
Weird thing, Illya can sense any invader when they enter the forest, but it seemed that (in the anime) Gil teleported there with GOB or something, when he normally could not do that... or maybe he has some teleportation item?

Anyway, my point is , and that VN quote confirms this, is the servant's duty to protect the master. You can't blame a defeat on this alone. And the result would be not different if Heracles could fight unrestrained, despise Gil saying it could. He was bored.

Now Gil could have respected Herakles if he came in a different class. He loathes insane dogs
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Old 2015-04-23, 12:29   Link #153
GDB
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He has a freaking Vimana. You don't need to teleport into a barrier to avoid detection when you can just fly over it and hop down.
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Old 2015-04-23, 13:07   Link #154
Rising Dragon
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Well, he had a Vimana. We don't know if that was the only one he had, or if he could repair it. From what I understand once Noble Phantasms are destroyed, that's it for them.
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Old 2015-04-23, 13:39   Link #155
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His phantasm is Gate of Babylon. It has an infinite amount of weapons and such, according to the VN. Literally infinite. Even if Vimana is destroyed, he'd be able to pull something infinitesimally similar but different to use. GoB is really, really, OP in a lot of respects.
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Old 2015-04-23, 13:47   Link #156
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Plus, the only instance we have of him actually "losing" weapons (by his own words, at least) are when he fires four weapons at Caster's cthulu thing, saying they became too "dirtied" for him to reclaim them. He lost many more to Berserker destroying them, yet didn't complain, so it's not beyond reason that he can choose to retrieve and fix them after they get destroyed.
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Old 2015-04-23, 15:31   Link #157
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In fact one of his NP specializes on retrieval, so yes he can recover them at will, but i doubt he can repair a destroyed NP, he simply does not care because he has so many thats is like counting the sand grains on a beach. He does not care if they are gone as long as it was his will (or due to a fight), if they are stolen (*cough* Lancelot *cough* is another issue, on which case he will care about them.

Gate of Babylon host most of the prototype artifact that were and will be made by mandkind, from nuclear bombs, to bows, from chariots to spaceships, so its almost assured that he has more ship at his disposal if he wants to
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Old 2015-04-24, 18:02   Link #158
Moekou
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Originally Posted by Ickarium View Post
His phantasm is Gate of Babylon. It has an infinite amount of weapons and such, according to the VN. Literally infinite. Even if Vimana is destroyed, he'd be able to pull something infinitesimally similar but different to use. GoB is really, really, OP in a lot of respects.
I thought it was about 3000?
Spoiler for later spoiler:

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Originally Posted by Dengar View Post
Of course they went insane. Becoming insane at some point in their lives is a requirement to be eligible for the Berserker class.
That's actually not true, I don't recall Cu Chulainn ever being insane, but he's very, very qualified to be Berserker due to his Warp Spasms that rendered him physically unrecognizable in battle, absolutely decimating enemies. Not to mention, the original berserkers are the Norse; I wonder why the class is not normally locked to vikings like Assassin is locked to Hashishin
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Old 2015-04-24, 18:16   Link #159
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Gilgamesh collected and stored away samples of all the technology that was developed during his age, making his favorite phrase, "I collected all the treasures of the earth", not an exaggeration or metaphor. The treasury contains all of the treasures of the world that he collected during his life, from the finest wine and golden drinking cups to divine mysteries from nearly every legend. As anything can be found within the vault, the amount of wealth within exceeds even his own knowledge. The desires of ancient humans were similar to those of the current age, so their technology, bolstered by the magical energy being alive and well, was not inferior to that of the modern age. The "Instruments of Hope" that people dreamed of were all realized, and because every single case was requisitioned by the King's hand, his collection is even furnished with airplanes and submarines. It also contains all of the original bases for all intellectual properties produced by mankind that originated in his kingdom, making board games and the works of the Library of Alexandria no more than imitations.

That within are not merely riches, but his collection is the very "origins of human wisdom." That which is missing from the vault would be items produced with completely new concepts by a new human race, and items produced with extraterrestrial intelligence and technology. He is the original hero, so all heroes of various myths are derived from his legend. It may be a paradox, but he, as the original, must possess that which can be handed down as the Noble Phantasms possessed by those later heroes derived from him for that reason. These weapons are technically nameless, the original Prototypes of the Noble Phantasms (すべての宝具の原型, Subete no Hōgu no Genkei?) and the common points before they became objects of faith that act as the foundations for their legends.

They are the original models of every legend, myth, and folklore, besides some noted exceptions. He makes references to wishing to obtain Excalibur and Kavacha and Kundala, and he is surprised by Avalon's existence. It is also possible, such as with Vasavi Shakti, that he cannot tell if something corresponds to the treasures in his vault. Karna's legend records that he "has" the spear, but there is no description of it "being used." It does not exist in his eyes due to never having been described, so he wishes to obtain it. The weaponry contained within includes swords, pole-arms, lances, hammers, shields, demonic swords that later made their way to Europe and South America, and a number of weapons unidentifiable to Shirou from sight, all of which form a perfect treasury of masses of unused weapons that simply went to sleep with the king. He owns the treasured swords that saved later heroes and the cursed swords that stole the lives of heroes, and their numbers are approximately infinite. After Gilgamesh's death, the contents were spread all over the world after being passed on or stolen, and the treasure, valued because they were splendid swords, eventually became Noble Phantasms.

Shirou states that the quality of the weapons makes the Noble Phantasms used by others look like fakes themselves. While Cú Chulainn has the Gáe Bolg that became famous, Gilgamesh possesses a weapon that later became the Gáe Bolg, but wasn't famous at the time Gilgamesh owned it. The only item contained in the vault that was not passed on to another user than Gilgamesh is Ea, a sword unique to only Gilgamesh. Shirou claims that even though he cannot see them all, he can feel that their numbers are infinite. If weapons of a previous incarnation meet those that descended from them, such as Gram facing Caliburn or copies facing originals, the deteriorated newer model will always lose.

It contains numerous A rank weapons, capable of piercing God Hand dozens of times to take eleven of Berserker's lives and then piercing him with twenty-three more weapons afterward. Just a single weapon is enough to pierce Caster's strongest shield, and keep any other another Servant on the defensive. The numerous weapons contain various different effects and abilities, allowing him to assault the weaknesses of any Servant. This places him at an advantage over most Servants in combat, such as attacking with a weapon strong against a certain attribute or assaulting a Servant with a weapon they were specifically weak against during life.

The meme "King of Heroes, do you have enough swords?" alludes more at Gilgamesh shooting cadence while using GoB. Gil has more weapons but while UBW is deployed Shirou is a bit faster, since every weapon he has is already deployed while Gil has to waste extra time deploying his NPs before firing them

As a curiosity Emiya has on his UBW around 10000 swords, most of them NPs

Last edited by Geburah; 2015-04-24 at 18:32.
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Old 2015-04-24, 18:25   Link #160
GreyZone
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Spoiler for UBW end:



But according to an interview, many Noble Phantasms are undergoing some changes to better fit the anime medium, so maybe this will all be handled a bit different in the end.
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