AnimeSuki Forums

Fireminer · 2013-08-01, 08:15

Then at least give the Raptor something better than a knife, like the axe that the Typhoon uses!
Now remember it, where is the main factory for European TSFs? Well, these Eurofighter planes were manufactured and assembled in many countries, so just wonder could it be the same with this world!

Alastor Mobius Toth · 2013-08-01, 08:28

American doctrine doesn't call for CQC combat, so they don't really need more than knives.

In most cases, Americans are able to hit and run, leaving the actual holding of the line of others. Unless, they are Intruders or Hogs, in which case, there's nothing better to hold the line.

EU's machine shop is in Greenland, which is the only part of Europe not yet touched by the BETA (England was invaded at some point, but ultimately the BETA were driven back).

Fireminer · 2013-08-01, 08:46

Talking about the Hogs, I wonder why couldn't people developed weapons package for TSF? Maybe because there aren't much weapons in the first place.
And yes, how much changes exactly are you going to include in America's doctrine in "Comet"? I have seen some signs, but just to make sure...

Alastor Mobius Toth · 2013-08-01, 08:54

Because GAU-8 Avenger cannons just don't fit onto other TSFs. They're too heavy, and take up too much space. Plus, with lighters TSFs, the recoil alone would screw with their movement and balancing.

I'm still thinking about it. America will probably work on getting more close-range weapons (like something more than knives, but equally small, or collapsible), as well as better "buckshot" 120mm rounds and the like. They'll probably shift their tactic even closer to Combined Arms, relying on USSF and Artillery for pinning down and neutralizing lasers, Army/Marines/Navy clearing the way, with tanks for fire support, and other mechanized units/powered infantry as spotters and defensive units.

Other than that, the changes will revolve less on actual changes to military hardware, and more on pilot training, in particularly the capacity of pilots to rapidly adapt to BETA tactics (when they do occasionally use them). Bottom line will always be the skill/knowledge of people in the fight, which is why STAB was created.

However, there won't be any Japanese-style American TSFs running around. That's because I've always felt that a lot of people overestimate the effectiveness of melee tactics against BETA (whose organisms are not only better at it, but got more numbers to boot). There's a reason why TSFs can both shoot and stab things.

Fireminer · 2013-08-01, 09:05

Well, I think it's time for America to learn from other countries, not vice versa. Sending elites to the front is a good idea, but we need something stronger! Intense Image-training (an article I read long time ago suggested that "brainwashing" people with long and bloody images and videos COULD mark something in them)?
Also, why not a multi-purpose machete?

Alastor Mobius Toth · 2013-08-01, 09:17

...so you'd indoctrinate your pilots into blind, killing machines that can go insane in the middle of battle, disrupting your ranks, screwing the battle plan and possibly getting themselves killed?

Yyyyyyyyeeeeeeaaaaaaaaahhhhhh, good plan, that.

I don't even want to think of political fallout. The American public is already suspicious about their government (they don't know they've been set-up, but that's the point), and any more stupid crap will end in massive rioting. Not worth it.

Also, they are not sending "elites" to the front line. They're sending them to teach other pilots. Then those pilots will teach other pilots. Knowledge is power, let the rest of your army know how to fight, especially when they're being deployed overseas. America has hardware, industry, and people to fight. What they need is experience to put it to good use. It's mentioned in the very first chapter.

TSF-wise, until the next big thing (like Operation-By-Light was for 3rd Generation) comes along, TSFs had generally plateaued in their development. Slapping shaped armor onto your TSF is not a significant improvement.

Fireminer · 2013-08-01, 09:38

Hey, not that crazy! Actually, remember that thousands of Jihads and African Children has go through that? And not to the extend of Tatsunami devouring human flesh! Just merely for training purpose...
Also, on a side question, do you plan to include characters, or make from "Kimi ga Nomu Eien" in "Comet"? Just finished it, I must say I am quite impressed! And if my memory serve me right, they do appear as cameo in Muv-Luv.
Finally, an Apache Revoler?

Alastor Mobius Toth · 2013-08-01, 09:53

The US is not desperate enough to use these methods. Other countries don't use that either (because mental hypnosis tends to be unstable), draft being something different; while irl comparisons don't exactly work out in a war with aliens. Tatsunami's example doesn't really work, because from what I remember, he found the cannibals, but wasn't a cannibal himself. Plus, he's trying to survive in a world which has definitely gone to shit, and will be destroyed by BETA anyway.

Probably not. Maybe in a sequel.

Revolver weapons don't work as rifles. So no.

Fireminer · 2013-08-01, 09:59

Goddness! I wonder how much sane remains in Âge? Even poor Tatsunami won't survive this - he just had got a kiss, FROM A GIRL, NOT THE GRIM REAPER!
Also, wonder what could feed that hive on the moon?
Specnazt knife?... Nah. Intergrated Brass Knuckle?

Wild Goose · 2013-08-01, 10:18

Also, US will never send all its elites to the frontlines. The lessons learned from WW2, Korea and Vietnam are that it's better to regularly rotate your troops, so that your combat vets are teaching your noobs. For example, the Thatch Weave, which was an air combat tactic designed to troll IJN Zeroes, was developed by Ed Thatch in-between combat tours.

Luftwaffe and IJN aces racked up insane killscores - you'd have German aces with something like 200 kills. The problem is that when these guys die, because they're not sharing their knowledge, the guys who replace them haven't leveled up. The IJN pissed away the cream of their pilots and pretty much got all their good pilots killed at Midway (mostly), and because they hadn't been rotating pilots home, after Midway you see Jap noobs going against midlevel and top-tier USN and USMC pilots.

Even the IRL Top Gun works that way; the best aircrews are selected to go to Top Gun and learn; after that, they go back to their squadrons and teach the lessons they learned at Top Gun. STAB in Comet is following a similar principle - which is not surprising, given how a good number of USSF pilots are ex-USN - where STAB trains the trainers, just like Top Gun. Top Gun for fighting in general, STAB for fighting BETA.

As for the GAU-8 Avenger, the fucking recoil alone can stall an aircraft, which is why the Hog's got those big fat engines and you never fire the gun while your nose is pointed up. Hell, the cut down Avenger, the GPU-5 - the recoil was so strong, in less than a second it had lost alignment.

Thing is, for the most part, anti-BETA tactics and doctrine do work, you just need to execute them well. It's like how SF tactics are really infantry tactics, but executed really well and with more speed and precision.

maxxus0923 · 2013-08-01, 15:16

CHOMP CHOMP NOM NOM! TASTY HUMANS *Imagining BETA playing candy crush except Humans rather than candies

Micropod · 2013-08-01, 16:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fireminer

Well, I think it's time for America to learn from other countries, not vice versa. Sending elites to the front is a good idea, but we need something stronger! Intense Image-training (an article I read long time ago suggested that "brainwashing" people with long and bloody images and videos COULD mark something in them)?
Also, why not a multi-purpose machete?

I seem to remember hypnotized soldiers being proved to be really, really terrible at fighting in their first engagement against the Taurans in The Forever War, which led it to being scrapped in that book. I suppose Yoshimune borrowed more than just the book's title.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alastor Mobius Toth

In most cases, Americans are able to hit and run, leaving the actual holding of the line of others. Unless, they are Intruders or Hogs, in which case, there's nothing better to hold the line.

From Salty Fields Never End I think it was something like they hold the line as long as ammo allows, and anyone who needs to resupply flies off to do so while the others cover them or the unit gets relieved by another unit so they can all go resupply. So a very logistics-heavy approach but it'll certainly be more effective than knives if they have good logistics.

Wild Goose · 2013-08-01, 18:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Micropod

From Salty Fields Never End I think it was something like they hold the line as long as ammo allows, and anyone who needs to resupply flies off to do so while the others cover them or the unit gets relieved by another unit so they can all go resupply. So a very logistics-heavy approach but it'll certainly be more effective than knives if they have good logistics.

And part of the reason only American forces use this logistics-heavy approach is because America has the logistics to support this approach; I've heard figures thrown around that America's airlift capability us greater than all of NATO combined. This is partly from lessons learned in WW2, where the deuce and half truck and the C-47 won the war, and partly due to nescessity, since America has bases and deployments all over the world. America is a superpower with global reach, in contrast to everyone else who are essentially local powers.

Fireminer · 2013-08-01, 19:42

@Wild Goose: Hey, I don't think Vietnam War happened in Muv-Luv! In the end, all of it left is a land of BETA. We have seen Vietnamese scattered through out the world - A cruel thing, I say. Considering I am a Vietnamese myself.
@Alastor: Does something like America Continent Union exists? I mean with countries like Venezuela and Cuba losing Soviet, the Communist and Scocialist aid, it won't be a surprise if they became US's backyard.

MrTerrorist · 2013-08-01, 22:44

I just discovered MuvLuv DYRL has it's own TVTropes page!

I also decided to help out by making a WMG page.

MeisterBabylon · 2013-08-02, 00:40

Fireminer, your crazy ideas belong in Infinite Stratos Fanfics, not here.

Fireminer · 2013-08-02, 00:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wild Goose

Also, US will never send all its elites to the frontlines. The lessons learned from WW2, Korea and Vietnam are that it's better to regularly rotate your troops, so that your combat vets are teaching your noobs. For example, the Thatch Weave, which was an air combat tactic designed to troll IJN Zeroes, was developed by Ed Thatch in-between combat tours.

Luftwaffe and IJN aces racked up insane killscores - you'd have German aces with something like 200 kills. The problem is that when these guys die, because they're not sharing their knowledge, the guys who replace them haven't leveled up. The IJN pissed away the cream of their pilots and pretty much got all their good pilots killed at Midway (mostly), and because they hadn't been rotating pilots home, after Midway you see Jap noobs going against midlevel and top-tier USN and USMC pilots.

Even the IRL Top Gun works that way; the best aircrews are selected to go to Top Gun and learn; after that, they go back to their squadrons and teach the lessons they learned at Top Gun. STAB in Comet is following a similar principle - which is not surprising, given how a good number of USSF pilots are ex-USN - where STAB trains the trainers, just like Top Gun. Top Gun for fighting in general, STAB for fighting BETA.

As for the GAU-8 Avenger, the fucking recoil alone can stall an aircraft, which is why the Hog's got those big fat engines and you never fire the gun while your nose is pointed up. Hell, the cut down Avenger, the GPU-5 - the recoil was so strong, in less than a second it had lost alignment.

Thing is, for the most part, anti-BETA tactics and doctrine do work, you just need to execute them well. It's like how SF tactics are really infantry tactics, but executed really well and with more speed and precision.

Ok, so what is the ratio for Veteran per Eishi?

Quote:

Originally Posted by MeisterBabylon

Fireminer, your crazy ideas belong in Infinite Stratos Fanfics, not here. :p

Well, you are talking to the wrong person! That is my twin brother.

Wild Goose · 2013-08-02, 01:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fireminer

@Wild Goose: Hey, I don't think Vietnam War happened in Muv-Luv! In the end, all of it left is a land of BETA. We have seen Vietnamese scattered through out the world - A cruel thing, I say. Considering I am a Vietnamese myself.

Nam was before the point of departure, so it could still have happened. Even so, I mention that in a general sense, as the US has over the years learned to use it's massive airlift capacity to bring the bestest and the mostest to the fight.

Whether or not the Vietnam War happened, however, the results are rendered moot by the BETA landfall.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fireminer

Ok, so what is the ratio for Veteran per Eishi?

Depends on where you are. EU I'd expect the percentage of veteran Eishi to be higher, given that almost everyone is rotating through combat slots. Ditto French. Soviets might not be that high, given they're using their undesirables to fight for them. US, percentage-wise, is probably the lowest canonically, given that the bulk of US pilots who've seen action are with the CVBGs and MEUs. Japan... probably a low percentage of veterans, given that they've got a tendency to get all chomped and nommed. COSEAN should have a decent level of vets, given how they're locking down the Southern Thailand front.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MrTerrorist

I just discovered MuvLuv DYRL has it's own TVTropes page!

Yeah, I made it a few months ago. Kinda forgot about it. You're welcome to it, if you want.

Fireminer · 2013-08-02, 01:54

Hey, that remind me, how many "Heroes of England" have we known? If my memory serves me right, there are 7th, but only 3 or 4 is named.

MeisterBabylon · 2013-08-02, 23:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fireminer

Well, you are talking to the wrong person! That is my twin brother.

Huh. Keep saying that.

You see, my best MLA "fiction" was designing Bureau mages inspired by the various TSFs and giving them personalities often ascribed to by the fighters they represent.

But that is just crazy, so...

*strait-jackets Miner and hauls him back to ISOC Asylum*

...back to where we belong. :3

2013-08-01, 08:28	Link #1282
Alastor Mobius Toth Idar Lead Join Date: Sep 2012 Location: World Marshall bureau	American doctrine doesn't call for CQC combat, so they don't really need more than knives. In most cases, Americans are able to hit and run, leaving the actual holding of the line of others. Unless, they are Intruders or Hogs, in which case, there's nothing better to hold the line. EU's machine shop is in Greenland, which is the only part of Europe not yet touched by the BETA (England was invaded at some point, but ultimately the BETA were driven back). __________________ Let the world fear us all. It's just means to an end. Our salvation lies in the Father's sins.

2013-08-01, 08:54	Link #1284
Alastor Mobius Toth Idar Lead Join Date: Sep 2012 Location: World Marshall bureau	Because GAU-8 Avenger cannons just don't fit onto other TSFs. They're too heavy, and take up too much space. Plus, with lighters TSFs, the recoil alone would screw with their movement and balancing. I'm still thinking about it. America will probably work on getting more close-range weapons (like something more than knives, but equally small, or collapsible), as well as better "buckshot" 120mm rounds and the like. They'll probably shift their tactic even closer to Combined Arms, relying on USSF and Artillery for pinning down and neutralizing lasers, Army/Marines/Navy clearing the way, with tanks for fire support, and other mechanized units/powered infantry as spotters and defensive units. Other than that, the changes will revolve less on actual changes to military hardware, and more on pilot training, in particularly the capacity of pilots to rapidly adapt to BETA tactics (when they do occasionally use them). Bottom line will always be the skill/knowledge of people in the fight, which is why STAB was created. However, there won't be any Japanese-style American TSFs running around. That's because I've always felt that a lot of people overestimate the effectiveness of melee tactics against BETA (whose organisms are not only better at it, but got more numbers to boot). There's a reason why TSFs can both shoot and stab things. __________________ Let the world fear us all. It's just means to an end. Our salvation lies in the Father's sins.

2013-08-01, 09:17	Link #1286
Alastor Mobius Toth Idar Lead Join Date: Sep 2012 Location: World Marshall bureau	...so you'd indoctrinate your pilots into blind, killing machines that can go insane in the middle of battle, disrupting your ranks, screwing the battle plan and possibly getting themselves killed? Yyyyyyyyeeeeeeaaaaaaaaahhhhhh, good plan, that. I don't even want to think of political fallout. The American public is already suspicious about their government (they don't know they've been set-up, but that's the point), and any more stupid crap will end in massive rioting. Not worth it. Also, they are not sending "elites" to the front line. They're sending them to teach other pilots. Then those pilots will teach other pilots. Knowledge is power, let the rest of your army know how to fight, especially when they're being deployed overseas. America has hardware, industry, and people to fight. What they need is experience to put it to good use. It's mentioned in the very first chapter. TSF-wise, until the next big thing (like Operation-By-Light was for 3rd Generation) comes along, TSFs had generally plateaued in their development. Slapping shaped armor onto your TSF is not a significant improvement. __________________ Let the world fear us all. It's just means to an end. Our salvation lies in the Father's sins.

2013-08-01, 09:53	Link #1288
Alastor Mobius Toth Idar Lead Join Date: Sep 2012 Location: World Marshall bureau	The US is not desperate enough to use these methods. Other countries don't use that either (because mental hypnosis tends to be unstable), draft being something different; while irl comparisons don't exactly work out in a war with aliens. Tatsunami's example doesn't really work, because from what I remember, he found the cannibals, but wasn't a cannibal himself. Plus, he's trying to survive in a world which has definitely gone to shit, and will be destroyed by BETA anyway. Probably not. Maybe in a sequel. Revolver weapons don't work as rifles. So no. __________________ Let the world fear us all. It's just means to an end. Our salvation lies in the Father's sins.

2013-08-01, 10:18	Link #1290
Wild Goose Truth Martyr Author Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Doing Anzu's paperwork. Age: 38	Also, US will never send all its elites to the frontlines. The lessons learned from WW2, Korea and Vietnam are that it's better to regularly rotate your troops, so that your combat vets are teaching your noobs. For example, the Thatch Weave, which was an air combat tactic designed to troll IJN Zeroes, was developed by Ed Thatch in-between combat tours. Luftwaffe and IJN aces racked up insane killscores - you'd have German aces with something like 200 kills. The problem is that when these guys die, because they're not sharing their knowledge, the guys who replace them haven't leveled up. The IJN pissed away the cream of their pilots and pretty much got all their good pilots killed at Midway (mostly), and because they hadn't been rotating pilots home, after Midway you see Jap noobs going against midlevel and top-tier USN and USMC pilots. Even the IRL Top Gun works that way; the best aircrews are selected to go to Top Gun and learn; after that, they go back to their squadrons and teach the lessons they learned at Top Gun. STAB in Comet is following a similar principle - which is not surprising, given how a good number of USSF pilots are ex-USN - where STAB trains the trainers, just like Top Gun. Top Gun for fighting in general, STAB for fighting BETA. As for the GAU-8 Avenger, the fucking recoil alone can stall an aircraft, which is why the Hog's got those big fat engines and you never fire the gun while your nose is pointed up. Hell, the cut down Avenger, the GPU-5 - the recoil was so strong, in less than a second it had lost alignment. Thing is, for the most part, anti-BETA tactics and doctrine do work, you just need to execute them well. It's like how SF tactics are really infantry tactics, but executed really well and with more speed and precision. __________________ One must forgive one's enemies, but not before they are hanged.Heinrich Heine. *I believe in miracles.* Order of Freelance Mages (Goose's Nanoha OC Project)

2013-08-01, 08:15	Link #1281
Fireminer Lumine Passio Author Join Date: Jul 2013 Location: Hanoi, Vietnam Age: 18	Then at least give the Raptor something better than a knife, like the axe that the Typhoon uses! Now remember it, where is the main factory for European TSFs? Well, these Eurofighter planes were manufactured and assembled in many countries, so just wonder could it be the same with this world!

2013-08-01, 08:46	Link #1283
Fireminer Lumine Passio Author Join Date: Jul 2013 Location: Hanoi, Vietnam Age: 18	Talking about the Hogs, I wonder why couldn't people developed weapons package for TSF? Maybe because there aren't much weapons in the first place. And yes, how much changes exactly are you going to include in America's doctrine in "Comet"? I have seen some signs, but just to make sure...

2013-08-01, 09:05	Link #1285
Fireminer Lumine Passio Author Join Date: Jul 2013 Location: Hanoi, Vietnam Age: 18	Well, I think it's time for America to learn from other countries, not vice versa. Sending elites to the front is a good idea, but we need something stronger! Intense Image-training (an article I read long time ago suggested that "brainwashing" people with long and bloody images and videos COULD mark something in them)? Also, why not a multi-purpose machete?

2013-08-01, 09:38	Link #1287
Fireminer Lumine Passio Author Join Date: Jul 2013 Location: Hanoi, Vietnam Age: 18	Hey, not that crazy! Actually, remember that thousands of Jihads and African Children has go through that? And not to the extend of Tatsunami devouring human flesh! Just merely for training purpose... Also, on a side question, do you plan to include characters, or make from "Kimi ga Nomu Eien" in "Comet"? Just finished it, I must say I am quite impressed! And if my memory serve me right, they do appear as cameo in Muv-Luv. Finally, an Apache Revoler?

2013-08-01, 09:59	Link #1289
Fireminer Lumine Passio Author Join Date: Jul 2013 Location: Hanoi, Vietnam Age: 18	Goddness! I wonder how much sane remains in Âge? Even poor Tatsunami won't survive this - he just had got a kiss, FROM A GIRL, NOT THE GRIM REAPER! Also, wonder what could feed that hive on the moon? Specnazt knife?... Nah. Intergrated Brass Knuckle?

2013-08-01, 15:16	Link #1291
maxxus0923 Fairy Legion Join Date: Jul 2008	CHOMP CHOMP NOM NOM! TASTY HUMANS *Imagining BETA playing candy crush except Humans rather than candies

2013-08-01, 19:42	Link #1294
Fireminer Lumine Passio Author Join Date: Jul 2013 Location: Hanoi, Vietnam Age: 18	@Wild Goose: Hey, I don't think Vietnam War happened in Muv-Luv! In the end, all of it left is a land of BETA. We have seen Vietnamese scattered through out the world - A cruel thing, I say. Considering I am a Vietnamese myself. @Alastor: Does something like America Continent Union exists? I mean with countries like Venezuela and Cuba losing Soviet, the Communist and Scocialist aid, it won't be a surprise if they became US's backyard.

2013-08-01, 22:44	Link #1295
MrTerrorist Takao Tsundere Cruiser Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Classified	I just discovered MuvLuv DYRL has it's own TVTropes page! I also decided to help out by making a WMG page. __________________

2013-08-02, 00:40	Link #1296
MeisterBabylon ~ Your Smile ~ Author Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: 346Pro Age: 38	Fireminer, your crazy ideas belong in Infinite Stratos Fanfics, not here. __________________ 白露型駆逐艦の４番艦、夕立です。第三次ソロモン海戦では、けっこう頑張ったっぽい★？

2013-08-02, 01:54	Link #1299
Fireminer Lumine Passio Author Join Date: Jul 2013 Location: Hanoi, Vietnam Age: 18	Hey, that remind me, how many "Heroes of England" have we known? If my memory serves me right, there are 7th, but only 3 or 4 is named.