AnimeSuki Forums

Register Forum Rules FAQ Members List Social Groups Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   AnimeSuki Forum > Anime Discussion > Older Series > Fate/ Series > F/SN UBW TV Spoiler Threads (for Franchise Veterans)

Notices

View Poll Results: F/SN UBW TV - Episode 18 Rating
Perfect 10 10 25.00%
9 out of 10 : Excellent 15 37.50%
8 out of 10 : Very Good 5 12.50%
7 out of 10 : Good 6 15.00%
6 out of 10 : Average 1 2.50%
5 out of 10 : Below Average 2 5.00%
4 out of 10 : Poor 1 2.50%
3 out of 10 : Bad 0 0%
2 out of 10 : Very Bad 0 0%
1 out of 10 : Painful 0 0%
Voters: 40. You may not vote on this poll

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 2015-05-13, 14:44   Link #161
monster
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Quote:
Originally Posted by AzumaYugi View Post
How so? Its part of how magecraft is applied in this universe. One aria is the invocation while the other aria is the underlying meaning behind the spell. One is the outer invocation, and one is the meaning behind the words which is what the caster "chants" in his or her inner world which is what really affects the outcome of a spell.

Shirou says Trace On whenever he does projection or strengthening, but the meaning differs depending on what he's applying it for, which you can see presented in the RAW VN with the kanji + furigana. UBW follows similar logic, but since it's a Reality Marble it's always going to have the same meaning.
Because we only need to know Trace on, not whatever other meaning it may have. And so we only need one for UBW as well, especially if UBW is always the same for the caster.
monster is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2015-05-13, 16:34   Link #162
AzumaYugi
ずっと一緒だよ
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: 友枝
Quote:
Originally Posted by monster View Post
Because we only need to know Trace on, not whatever other meaning it may have. And so we only need one for UBW as well, especially if UBW is always the same for the caster.
No, because depending on what the magus applies to their spells, things such as Shirou's personal "Trace On" phrase can have completely different results like Gradation Air/Projection or Reinforcement, and the different kanji allows the reader to differentiate between them. You have to realize that there's a detailed system to how magic works in Type-Moon and how these magi utilize their state of mind and their "Magical Circuits", meaning that there's a process in how the spells are prepared and things don't just explode just because they say a magic word. It's a mental process, and they wanted to show that in the writing. Things like UBW having a description of Shirou's life alongside the invocation is a by-product of that.

If we only needed to know the bare minimum of these things as long as it still entertains us, there would be no depth or lore in anything ever. Because all we'd need to know is what happens to these characters and that [x] attack/spell does [y].

Other than that, I'd say without the UBW Japanese poem, the eargasmic Engrish Rule of Cool chant that's pretty much just about the dude making swords would lose a lot of extra meaning describing the guy's inner world. A.K.A. details that add more of Emiya's personal story to the spell. It's two layers of one personal spell, and Reality Marbles are just one giant definition of the practitioner.

tl;dr TM world-building is insane, don't underestimate it.
__________________
魔法☆全開 blog - My ramblings about Japanese media
Old Account (Staff never replied to my emails after the hack)

Last edited by AzumaYugi; 2015-05-13 at 16:59.
AzumaYugi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2015-05-13, 16:55   Link #163
monster
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Quote:
Originally Posted by AzumaYugi View Post
No, because depending on what the magus applies to their spells, things such as Shirou's personal "Trace On" phrase can have completely different results like Gradation Air/Projection or Reinforcement, and the different kanji allows the reader differentiate between them. You have to realize that there's a detailed system to how magic works in Type-Moon and how these magi utilize their "Magical Circuits", meaning that there's a process in how the spells are prepared and things don't just explode just because they say a magic word. It's a mental process, and they wanted to show that in the writing. Things like UBW having a description of Shirou's life alongside the invocation is a by-product of that.

If we only needed to know the bare minimum of these things as long as it still entertains us, there would be no depth or lore in anything ever. Because all we'd need to know is what happens to these characters and that [x] attack/spell does [y].
The part in bold is not at all what I meant. The point is that they can give us anything and everything they want us to know about Shirou's "Trace On" and still have him only say that. The same thing can be done for UBW.
Quote:
Other than that, I'd say without the UBW Japanese poem, the eargasmic Engrish Rule of Cool chant that's pretty much just about the dude making swords would lose a lot of extra meaning describing the guy's inner world. A.K.A. details that add more of Emiya's personal story to the spell. It's two layers of one personal spell, and Reality Marbles are just one giant definition of the practitioner.

tl;dr TM world-building is insane, don't underestimate it.
And it would be even better if it didn't have to resort to a silly "rule of cool" element.
monster is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2015-05-13, 18:24   Link #164
quigonkenny
Sav'aaq!
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Hyrule
Age: 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by monster View Post
The part in bold is not at all what I meant. The point is that they can give us anything and everything they want us to know about Shirou's "Trace On" and still have him only say that. The same thing can be done for UBW. And it would be even better if it didn't have to resort to a silly "rule of cool" element.
But it wouldn't be as cool...
__________________
FGO Info: (JP) 055835281 | クワイガンケニー ==== (EN) 952525630 | quigonkenny
quigonkenny is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2015-05-13, 19:19   Link #165
monster
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Quote:
Originally Posted by quigonkenny View Post
But it wouldn't be as cool...
I'm not actually opposed to them using English to appear cool (from a Japanese audience's perspective, I suppose).

I was talking about the unnecessary use of both languages at the same time and how it affects adaptation efforts.
monster is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2015-05-13, 23:26   Link #166
AzumaYugi
ずっと一緒だよ
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: 友枝
Quote:
Originally Posted by monster View Post
The part in bold is not at all what I meant. The point is that they can give us anything and everything they want us to know about Shirou's "Trace On" and still have him only say that.
He does only say Trace On. The alternate meanings are what is in his head.

投影、開始 is Trace On when it's projection. It's pronounced Trace On.
同調、開始 is Trace On when it's reinforcement. It's pronounced Trace On.

To simplify, think of one being written as "Trace On: Projection ver." and one as "Trace On: Reinforcement ver." to the eyes of those who can read moonrunes (not literally). Only instead of actually being boring like that (remember... it was originally a literary medium), Nasu plays with kanji to go along with how his 'verse works when it comes to magic and other BS. And uses those terms instead of separately bringing up that Shirou is now projecting, now reinforcing, etc every time the guy says Trace On.

You don't see these alternate readings much at all in the anime, which is fine. Because it's a visual medium, and he just says Trace On. Nothing much is lost in terms of anime. Although, I've seen people overlap Gae Bolg with its thrown version due to the lack of similar context.

But the meaning Archer gives to UBW's aria in his head (again, part of how magecraft here works) is directly brought up in the story by Rin in her flashback dreams of Archer and shown to Shirou when he battles his future self later on. It's what gives form to his inner world as opposed to the more vague foreign invocation that merely contains the meaning of it (I am the bone of my sword, blah blah).

I don't see how it's unnecessary unless you think the magic system needs to be simplified so it's just "magic/attack invocation = whatever function" vanilla, which would grant your wish of only one aria per hocus pocus. It doesn't really affect the adaptation either. It just affects how the subbers choose to sub it.
__________________
魔法☆全開 blog - My ramblings about Japanese media
Old Account (Staff never replied to my emails after the hack)
AzumaYugi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2015-05-13, 23:37   Link #167
Rev Okkin
Yorokobe, (Insert name)
 
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Auckland, New Zealand
Too many to quote... Here we go,

Levani, it's how to marketing scheme in Japan goes. I read somewhere that alot of studios in Japan animate within a week in order to get attention fast and hard then fixing it up later. It's kinda like games where they release one but over the course of its release, DLC and patches come about to nerf or boost some aspects of the game, added story elements, etc.
The reason of BD 1 had little changes from TV version was because they already finished animating it before hand. As for this second cour, it is most likely that episodes 13-16 were animated in the season break as they were confident in giving out info about how many minutes were cut. The rest however, might be episodes they animated within a week with the material they have, cut some scenes out to fit TV restrictions. The cut content might be subjected to consideration or weren't animated in time for their TV release, who knows. While "wait for the BD" might be an annoying argument, it affects ufotable's release quite alot and of course, the BD is the final product and hence should be the subject to criticisms when it is out.
Also, don't worry. I like UBW OST over Kenji's and the VN's too.

Yeah, the distinctness of the two aria should be kept as one is not the literal translation of the other and they are quite different and represent different things. (Thank that certain fansub group that fixed those... Check them out, AzamaYugi)

While it is good to have a large worldbuilding, there is only so much you can do to implement them into visual format. Yes, it's nice to know how one is an exception from the others, but unless it comes to actual play, there is no pressing need to explain it. The only one in the main timeline that gets summoned again from a previous War is Saber. Unless another Servant is also summoned to a present war from a previous one, there is no need to press the mater of why Saber is distinct from other Servants because there is no direct comparison to make nor there is indication that it comes into direct play that is obvious and needs clarification. Same with Shirou's Projection. Sure his is different from the normal kind, was there any showing of how the normal Projection is like? The farthest we got was Shirou mentioning they were always hollow and that Rin agreed with Kiritsugu that in that state, they were useless. So what was the differing factor? The Projection this time was a NP compared to the ones he did before that were most likely just ordinary things? His situation of fighting Kuzuki with a threat of death while worrying about Tohsaka knocked out at the side? Is it because they were swords?

As for Shirou's abilities in terms of Projection, it has been shown in the anime that he needs 1) To have seen the material and analyze it, 2) Hold that image and analysis 3) Pump mana through/from his Circuits [there's also a distinct sound of cocking hammer in ep 18] 4) Bring image to reality as mana forms the material. There's also the fact that all he has projected are Archer's swords.

I'm standing by my interpretation and artistic representation of UBW being fake looking as it reflects well its caster and its contents. Sure it can be done another way to please more people but for me, it is all good. Heck for all what people said that it took them out of immersion, I was drawn more into the show because of it.
And the music is cool and awesome. For BD 1, the music are utilized well to emphasize the scenes it accompanies. For the recent Ep 13 and 16, no OST with only diegetic sounds emphasizes that their talk is personal, one to one, nothing outside the instory happenings in that scene is needed to understand the importance and how heartfelt between the two their conversation is. IMO, Fukusawa utilizes his tailor made OST and silence real well.
__________________
Random Thoughts:
I will only judge anime by its BD version.
#nostupidcensors #nostupidmissingscenes
#betteranimation #betterediting
Rev Okkin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2015-05-14, 00:09   Link #168
monster
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Quote:
Originally Posted by AzumaYugi View Post
But the meaning Archer gives to UBW's aria in his head (again, part of how magecraft here works) is directly brought up in the story by Rin in her flashback dreams of Archer and shown to Shirou when he battles his future self later on. It's what gives form to his inner world as opposed to the more vague foreign invocation that merely contains the meaning of it (I am the bone of my sword, blah blah).

I don't see how it's unnecessary unless you think the magic system needs to be simplified so it's just "magic/attack invocation = whatever function" vanilla, which would grant your wish of only one aria per hocus pocus.
Just to be clear, do you know what I actually find unnecessary?
Quote:
It doesn't really affect the adaptation either. It just affects how the subbers choose to sub it.
Which is part of the adaptation process, in this case into foreign market.
monster is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2015-05-14, 01:12   Link #169
AzumaYugi
ずっと一緒だよ
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: 友枝
The tidbit about how Heroic Spirits function is part of the reason why Archer's ending is so bittersweet. :/ I suppose they could shove that plot point in some other way later or even in the BD version, I was just pointing out that it's missing in this episode.

On another note, I judge a video game based on how much it leans on DLC content as well... Though that's way worse because I paid full price for it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by monster View Post
Just to be clear, do you know what I actually find unnecessary?
Two arias for one technique/spell instead of just one? I've been explaining why it isn't unnecessary in the Nasuverse and also in the context of this specific story. They are separate things with separate functions.

Quote:
Which is part of the adaptation process, in this case into foreign market.
Either way, a writer shouldn't hold back his/her creativity just because their novel might be adapted and translated...
__________________
魔法☆全開 blog - My ramblings about Japanese media
Old Account (Staff never replied to my emails after the hack)

Last edited by AzumaYugi; 2015-05-14 at 01:41.
AzumaYugi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2015-05-14, 01:28   Link #170
Rev Okkin
Yorokobe, (Insert name)
 
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Auckland, New Zealand
Talking

Quote:
Originally Posted by AzumaYugi View Post
The tidbit about how Heroic Spirits function is part of the reason why Archer's ending is so bittersweet. :/ I suppose they could shove that plot point in some other way later or even in the BD version, I was just pointing out that it's missing in this episode.

...

Either way, a writer shouldn't hold back his/her creativity just because their novel might be adapted and translated...
Then I guess that it would be discussed later when the BDs come out.

Agreed on that front. It was written in a certain setting (Japan) with a certain language and with a certain audience. Western audience is secondary but can still enjoy the material. There is only the "lost in translation" thing happening in both in adaptation and in language.
Then there's me novelizing FZ.
__________________
Random Thoughts:
I will only judge anime by its BD version.
#nostupidcensors #nostupidmissingscenes
#betteranimation #betterediting
Rev Okkin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2015-05-14, 01:46   Link #171
monster
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Quote:
Originally Posted by AzumaYugi View Post
Two arias for one technique/spell instead of just one?
Ok, no, it's the two languages. It's one thing if they are actually translations of each other or if it's two separate spells in the same language and only one is spoken aloud or if there is only one spell but with whatever state the caster is in affecting the actual effect and nature of the spell.

But from what I've been reading on this thread, it is actually two separate spells done at the same time in two different languages. That's just unnecessarily convoluted if it's just to get some cool factor without any other apparent purpose.
Quote:
Either way, a writer shouldn't hold back his/her creativity just because their novel might be adapted and translated...
Sure, but remember what the original post I was responding to:
Quote:
Originally Posted by GreyZone View Post
Bad idea. The (RAW) VN had both languages simultanously for Shirou and the aria at the beginning of the VN which is Archer's version had both languages simultanously as well (not sure about when Archer actually chants in English). Voice acting was only added afterward. So having both every time would be best to convey the original intent, though it seems "too strange" for aniplex to do it for some reason.
monster is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2015-05-14, 02:55   Link #172
AzumaYugi
ずっと一緒だよ
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: 友枝
Quote:
Originally Posted by monster View Post
Ok, no, it's the two languages. It's one thing if they are actually translations of each other or if it's two separate spells in the same language and only one is spoken aloud or if there is only one spell but with whatever state the caster is in affecting the actual effect and nature of the spell.

But from what I've been reading on this thread, it is actually two separate spells done at the same time in two different languages. That's just unnecessarily convoluted if it's just to get some cool factor without any other apparent purpose.
It's not two spells being said at the same time. I've already explained the nature of spells in the Nasuverse and the way furigana-over-kanji works (furigana is the pronounciation while kanji is the meaning).

Usually, the entire UBW incantation (not two, one) is the English being recited by Emiya, with the Japanese being the personal meaning connected to the words in his mind (the non-nihilistic version was also flipped over once, but same process):

Spoiler:



Quote:
Sure, but remember what the original post I was responding to:

Quote:
Bad idea. The (RAW) VN had both languages simultanously for Shirou and the aria at the beginning of the VN which is Archer's version had both languages simultanously as well (not sure about when Archer actually chants in English). Voice acting was only added afterward. So having both every time would be best to convey the original intent, though it seems "too strange" for aniplex to do it for some reason.
That's not the aria's fault though, that's the fault of Aniplex for not going with the original intention and making those mistakes. Not only that, but they did use both sides inconsistently whenever Rin was saying the Japanese one.

It's not hard to identify when a character is speaking English or Japanese...
__________________
魔法☆全開 blog - My ramblings about Japanese media
Old Account (Staff never replied to my emails after the hack)
AzumaYugi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2015-05-14, 03:10   Link #173
monster
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Quote:
Originally Posted by AzumaYugi View Post
It's not two spells being said at the same time. I've already explained the nature of spells in the Nasuverse and the way furigana-over-kanji works (furigana is the pronounciation while kanji is the meaning).

Usually, the entire UBW incantation (not two, one) is the English being recited by Emiya, with the Japanese being the personal meaning connected to the words in his mind (the non-nihilistic version was also flipped over once, but same process):

Spoiler:




That's not the aria's fault though, that's the fault of Aniplex for not going with the original intention and making those mistakes. Not only that, but they did use both sides inconsistently whenever Rin was saying the Japanese one.

It's not hard to identify when a character is speaking English or Japanese...
So if it's just one spell and it's only the English version that is spoken, then that's the only version that needs to be portrayed in actual words while Rin's visions can be used to explain the other version as necessary.

(Note that I'm not even talking about Aniplex)
monster is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2015-05-14, 13:19   Link #174
Avatar of Dreams
勝利は単純な魂の中に
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Well Shirou recites the Japanese version of his UBW chant in the VN. So yea, even the source material is inconsistent.
Avatar of Dreams is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2015-05-14, 13:45   Link #175
AzumaYugi
ずっと一緒だよ
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: 友枝
Quote:
Originally Posted by Avatar of Dreams View Post
Well Shirou recites the Japanese version of his UBW chant in the VN. So yea, even the source material is inconsistent.
Yeah. People think he only does that in the voiced version, but even in the original voiceless release, Shirou inversed the chant, if I'm correct in assuming that the text in the RAW wasn't altered in Realta Nua because Sugiyama Noriaki couldn't do Engrish as well as Suwabe (not completely sure, I'll check my own later without the Realta Nua stuff patched in).





I think with that with the unused Unlimited Codes voice file where Shirou does recites the English aria,
Spoiler:
, and (I know Type-Moon doesn't really acknowledge its existence anymore) the DEEN movie where he does a shortened version, Ufotable might make Shirou do it in English too.
__________________
魔法☆全開 blog - My ramblings about Japanese media
Old Account (Staff never replied to my emails after the hack)

Last edited by AzumaYugi; 2015-05-14 at 14:03.
AzumaYugi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2015-05-14, 18:29   Link #176
monster
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Quote:
Originally Posted by Avatar of Dreams View Post
Well Shirou recites the Japanese version of his UBW chant in the VN. So yea, even the source material is inconsistent.
So Archer uses English and Shirou uses Japanese. I think that's fine as long as they stick with it.
monster is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2015-05-14, 18:35   Link #177
GreyZone
"Senior" "Member"
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Quote:
Originally Posted by monster View Post
So Archer uses English and Shirou uses Japanese. I think that's fine as long as they stick with it.
That's voices, text though always has English in the foreground from what I understood from AzumaYugi.
__________________
GreyZone is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2015-09-16, 10:18   Link #178
Guido
Snobby Gentleman
 
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Monterrey, México
Age: 43
Fate/stay night 18 - The Beginning of the Circle

I'm throwing in an analogy from what I've learned watching this episode:

- In another anime series, which was Tokyo Ghoul, the protagonist Kaneki recalls from his childhood his mother telling him is better to let yourself be hurt than hurting others.

The analogy between that show and UBW addresses that one puts others before himself, and, furthermore, in UBW we got Shirou striving for the sake of other peoples' happiness over his own.

That's what Archer did in the distant future and ended nothing but regrets and betrayal.

I couldn't help myself but sobbing at how Rin understood and explained to the audience about those two foolish and yet sweet naivety.

For a further analogy, I thought up that Archer's reality marble, Unlimited Blade Works, plays similar tropes to Saber's end at the Battle of Camlan.

Basically, it gives me to understand that both servants ended nothing short of regrets at the end of their lives.
Guido is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 02:07.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
We use Silk.