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Old 2014-02-27, 20:19   Link #34001
jjblue1
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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
Lion's very existence is clearly a fantasy. Everything is perfect, he's beautiful and intelligent, etc. Lion is not necessarily "how Yasu would look if accepted by the family" but "how Yasu wishes he/she would look if accepted by the family (in the specific manner Yasu has imagined he/she would be)." His appearance is almost certainly born out of seeing the portrait, connecting it with Yasu's belief in her personal history, and extrapolating to the ideal. It never should've really been taken as a hint of much (except, perhaps, that Yasu was born male).
Well, I wouldn't say perfect as I found Lion pretty annoying and not as friendly as Jessica (he's totally cool with not knowing who're the servants while Jessica made a point of knowing even their birthday and making them presents). Not mentioning Jessica is more polite with Will. Lion's pinching habit to me felt even more annoying than Battler's breast grabbing habit and what's worse is that no one ever slap him for it, so he does it knowing he'll get away with it.

But yes, I get your point. Only Umineko seems to imply Yasu wished to be blond due to Battler's tastes but little Yasu is blond way before Battler will voice said tastes and Lion being blond is pretty pointless in this regard and could at best considered a hint to his mother... which I'm not sure Yasu would want to give him as Lion's mother in Lion's heart is Natsuhi.
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Old 2014-02-27, 21:07   Link #34002
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When looking at the pictures of the EP8 manga preview, something catched my eye. A tag to be specific. The tag "Yasuda Sayo".

So, where did people get name from? Is Yasu a short form of Yasuda? and was that simply mixed with the name, Shannon told to George, "Sayo"? Or was it explicitly stated somewhere?
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Old 2014-02-27, 23:30   Link #34003
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The characters in "Yasu" are identical to the most common spelling as "Yasuda", and Sayo seems to be her legal name from which Shannon is derived. Yasuda Sayo is about 99% likely to be her legal name.
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Old 2014-02-28, 04:59   Link #34004
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I'm really intrigued on those panels about Yasu from EP8 manga. A lot of people agree that her motives were not explained very well. Maybe we are getting new material that will make it easier to understand her character?

Anyway, about her gender matter, let's analyze the panels.



Unfortunately, it is hard for me to see the Furigana in this one.
"Shoumo, hoka no ko wa mo kiteruno ni..."

Other children have already....come? Cannot really understand this one. But here is my speculation on the panel itself. First, it might be Yasu realizing her real gender, be it Boy or a Girl. "Hoka no ko", is she comparing herself to other females?


XDD, we already knew about this... Moving on.



Ah, how intriguing.

Chinese translations might come up soon. I'll definitely post it here if I find anything important.
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Old 2014-02-28, 06:14   Link #34005
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Originally Posted by Captain Bluebeard View Post
Wait... wait... is this what I think it is? Because if it is then we are getting gender confirmation(?!)

It's a good thing that we get these revisions in the manga. I suppose it proves Ryukishi is aware EP8 was sloppy-work and is somehow making up for it.
I curse myself for being in Germany right now and the Japanese bookstore having been closed down by the city...I will so get this once I'm back

Well, the little that was put up I'll translate so people get an idea.
Yasu in the toilet stall says "The period..." "...even though everybody else already had it", which implies that 'she' hasn't had her period at a point when it is strange not to, further solidifying the male-theory.
All the way to the right it says "Something like me being an illegitimate child has to be a lie!" Going by the pronoun "watashi" being used, it's clearly Yasu (since Battler used "ore" even as a child.

I'd really love to have a little more insight into this chapter. If anybody knows the blogger in question a little closer, please PM me.

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Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
Also... it seems the chapter in which Yasu's past is shown is supposed to be called "interlude —Ikuko Hachijo—" Is it supposed to hint to a confirmation that Yasu and Ikuko are the same person?
Well, I wouldn't give too much on it right now, since the chapters 20-22 were called Hachijo Toya and so far there's no sign of any actual Toya or his accident...unless of course the whole Erika/Battler Golden Land/Goats battle is supposed to show Toya's situation.
I would wait regarding that one, personally.

Regarding the whole gender debate. I'd agree with Drifloon that we shouldn't start pushing Western-European and US-American social and political ideas on Ryukishi, who grew up in a completely different environment.
His comments on Japanese popular culture is apt and I'd say that in a way he is trapped in that system. I find it funny how everybody was praising his use of kawaii/moe stereotypes in Higurashi, claiming that it was a total reversal of stereotypes. Yes, I also think that he inserted the uber-perfect school-life as a tool to cause an even bigger break after the Watanagashi, it still didn't stop fans all over Japan (especially male fans) to concentrate on this moemoe-kyunkyun'ness of Higurashi...hell, look at the existence of anime-spinoffs like Higurashi Kira.

I can't really agree with Renall here, who claims that he should have made his message more accessible and more clear towards the masses. I see the narrative being critical of almost everybody's behavior, but not shoving that into our face. I do think that Ryukishi should probably have spent less time writing cool fights between his kyara and invest a little more time into their interaction...on the other hand this runs counter-productive to the framework of the series.
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Old 2014-02-28, 06:19   Link #34006
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Well, the little that was put up I'll translate so people get an idea.
Yasu in the toilet stall says "The period..." "...even though everybody else already had it", which implies that 'she' hasn't had her period at a point when it is strange not to, further solidifying the male-theory.
I wonder if that is too early to say. In a glance, it does make the male theory stronger, but it could also be a female who lost the reproduction hormones and never got a period.
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Old 2014-02-28, 06:39   Link #34007
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Originally Posted by Drifloon View Post
Personally I have a feeling that those kinds of statements might just be translation issues? Japanese language seems to be pretty gender-divided, so things like "As a man, I can't afford to lose" might be common expressions there.
That does seem to be the case, at least with the 'as a man' expression. However, there are many examples of similar stuff which is literally in everything he's written. It is possible that we are blaming him for a lot more than he is actually guilty of, but it is a fact that his views about the differences between the sexes are sort of... creepy.

And that's all the more strange considering that if you overlook the wildly sexual depiction of women (which is more apparent in Higurashi) which you can attribute to the standards of Japanese media, his own text doesn't treat women or men in a partial way.

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Battler's stupid breast-grabbing antics also seem to be a cultural thing; that would be seriously frowned upon over in the West, but everyone in Umineko just seems to kind of laugh it off as normal male behaviour and Kumasawa even goes along with the joke by inviting him to rub her own breasts (and no one seems to find this creepy), so it seems like the Japanese are just really open about sexual expression and don't have the same kind of sensitivity to it that we do. Again, this is something that I've seen in a lot of Japanese media, not just Umineko.
I'm also not very familiar with the Japanese culture, but one thing I can say for sure is that nobody would just laugh off a man trying to grab a girl's breast in public (and without her wanting to) without finding it at least a little disturbing in any culture.

At any rate, Japanese media seem to be overflowing with such stuff, it is pretty common to see a boy getting smacked because of his pervertness in anime, so I guess the reason for that is not Ryukishi being sexist but just following the stupid comedy stereotypes, possibly aiming for laughs.

Regardless, it is pretty low-rate humor and it could very well be avoided. And Battler's justification of it as 'a trick to break the ice' is wildly surreal and makes the whole thing more creepy than it already was.

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Originally Posted by haguruma View Post
Yasu in the toilet stall says "The period..." "...even though everybody else already had it", which implies that 'she' hasn't had her period at a point when it is strange not to, further solidifying the male-theory.
All the way to the right it says "Something like me being an illegitimate child has to be a lie!" Going by the pronoun "watashi" being used, it's clearly Yasu (since Battler used "ore" even as a child.
Thanks a lot for this translation. I can't wait for the manga to get a scanlation now! It seems like it will be an informative revision of EP8, that much is apparent from even the first two chapters, I really want to see where they are gonna go with it.

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His comments on Japanese popular culture is apt and I'd say that in a way he is trapped in that system. I find it funny how everybody was praising his use of kawaii/moe stereotypes in Higurashi, claiming that it was a total reversal of stereotypes. Yes, I also think that he inserted the uber-perfect school-life as a tool to cause an even bigger break after the Watanagashi, it still didn't stop fans all over Japan (especially male fans) to concentrate on this moemoe-kyunkyun'ness of Higurashi...hell, look at the existence of anime-spinoffs like Higurashi Kira.
Higurashi itself seems to be constantly making fun of all these stereotypes (albeit, that also gets a bit creepy sometimes). The sexism I was reffering to has to do with subtler things, like the way his character speak about the two genders or the general consesus that seems to exist about it sometimes.

The existence of these OVAs is just.... a matter that I wouldn't like to touch. Some things are better left unsaid....
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Old 2014-02-28, 08:25   Link #34008
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Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
Yup. Unless Shannon dryed her hair black so they had to hand her a wig when she went to meet Kinzo... LOL... which would be unnecessarily complicate (as well as unlikely since the chances for Shannon to have blond hair are pretty low).
It wouldn't surprise me if Shannon was given a wig by Genji. Although the other panels may indicate that Shannon may have considered getting a blond wig since Battler's ideal woman is a blond/busty model.

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I fear he thought to have depicted Yasu's mindset through the VN, using the various dialogues of Shannon, Kanon and Beatrice.
However there are two problems for this:
A) the VN is a massive work in which those references (as well as many others) often get lost if you don't know the solution already. This have as a result that once you get at the end of Umineko, as you likely have lost many of them, you end up not understanding how Yasu's mindset was and being so unsatisfied you might not want to re-read such a massive work.
B) Yasu's mindset, or better her heart, was probably one of the most important points if not the most important of Umineko as a whole and one that should have been underlined the most so as to lead to a good understanding of it. The fact is obscured and presented in such a hidden way ends up hiding it, sort of like how Battler claimed that if Beato wanted to write a 'love you' letter she should have made it simpler. Despite having Battler say so Ryukishi insisted in his roundabout way in Ep 6, 7 & 8 which didn't really help and that's probably the reason why people is enjoying EP 8 manga version more as it's way more direct in answering to what we wanted/needed to know.
I admit after numerous rereads that the motive was more understandable but during the first read it was hard to understand let alone empathize with.

Furthermore I think many of us in mystery stories are too accustomed with motives that either the culprit was wronged by many of the victims or the culprit was a bastard. While Ryukishi does play with those expectations as shown that he had Beatrice play the "evil" witch in the fantasy scenes but Beatrice's actual mindset was conveyed in such roundabout way that it results in disappointment or confusion.

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Originally Posted by battle22 View Post
I wonder if that is too early to say. In a glance, it does make the male theory stronger, but it could also be a female who lost the reproduction hormones and never got a period.
How would that even work from a cliff fall? I mean a female infant losing her ability to properly produce hormones by falling off a cliff. Speaking of hormones, on a reread I did wonder if Kanon's slim figure and inability to lift bags of manure was suppose to indicate a lack of testosterone compared to a healthy male young adult like Battler.

Not to mention that a lot of other indications point towards Yasu being male. Kinzo's treatment of Lion. Natsuhi's lack of surprise about the child's gender. Kanon's existence and why being furniture seems to hit him the hardest.


Besides it is one of things I always wondered about in Umineko. If Yasu never solved the epitaph, would Genji have come clean during the time Yasu goes through puberty? Or given how Genji told Yasu the hint, would Genji have kept helping Yasu until he figured everything out? Or would he have told a modified version of the story on his body got mutilated?
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Old 2014-02-28, 08:49   Link #34009
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Why don't we have one final duel regarding Yasu's gender before the reveal? I missed this. I'm still in the female theory camp!

It is possible that Lion and Yasu have different sexes. Let us assume Yasuda believes that she is female and her wish was to be born male, in order to not fall in love with Battler and make her pain go away. What if that was her dream? So, if this theory has any ground of logic, that would mean Lion is male, while Yasu is either biologically male or female. This is how I cut the connection regarding the gender between Yasu and Lion.

Yasu is unaware of her own gender. Therefore Kanon and Shannon exist. She is unable to know which one is the right gender and cannot decide. This was the reason for the duel, not for the love for Ushiromiyas.

Shannon won, in other words, whether Yasu is female or not, she believes that she is female. I will also believe what she believes.

Natsuhi only had the baby for a few days, less than 3 if I remember correctly, it is quite possible, that knowing her displeasure towards the kid, that she didn't even care to ask about the gender. So when MOT19 called, she swallowed it up, because "So that's how it was".

I'm just having fun, so don't think I want to argue or anything. Let's have a clean discussion xD
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Old 2014-02-28, 10:08   Link #34010
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Yasu as portrayed in the VNs was an interesting character, but I don't think she was explored far enough to explain why she planned a murder spree (or did whatever else she was supposed to do). Hopefully the manga can fix that.

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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
Lion's very existence is clearly a fantasy. Everything is perfect, he's beautiful and intelligent, etc. Lion is not necessarily "how Yasu would look if accepted by the family" but "how Yasu wishes he/she would look if accepted by the family (in the specific manner Yasu has imagined he/she would be)." His appearance is almost certainly born out of seeing the portrait, connecting it with Yasu's belief in her personal history, and extrapolating to the ideal. It never should've really been taken as a hint of much (except, perhaps, that Yasu was born male).
And that Yasu was not responsible for the murders (or at least does not carry sole responsibility), since they happen anyway even if she doesn't exist.
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Old 2014-02-28, 10:56   Link #34011
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Originally Posted by goldendust View Post
Furthermore I think many of us in mystery stories are too accustomed with motives that either the culprit was wronged by many of the victims or the culprit was a bastard. While Ryukishi does play with those expectations as shown that he had Beatrice play the "evil" witch in the fantasy scenes but Beatrice's actual mindset was conveyed in such roundabout way that it results in disappointment or confusion.
I think that might also be something that is grounded in a completely different genre background. We do have a lot of mystery novels that present an evil or insane culprit, even Christie (who created some sympathetic culprits) basically always made them at least clearly insane...all down to the maniacal laughter during the reveal (I look at you EP3 Eva).

Japanese mystery fiction (especially detective novels) has gone through a slightly different evolution, especially considering that, while most of the realism in the West came with hard-boiled fiction in Japan there was a big postwar revival of classical detective fiction and puzzle-like mystery-solving novels like in the Golden Age.
The one who really set that trend into motion was Yokomizo Seishi (who was also only mentioned in passing in Umineko for whatever reason). He's also often referred to as having constructed the first actual Japanese-style locked room with Murder at the Inn (1946) - though he himself said that he took extensive inspiration from Roger Scarlett's Murder among the Angells (1932).

Yokomizo had a very different style of writing mysteries, especially concerning motives and culprit culpability. Most of his culprits were motivated by the traumatic social change after the war, the breakdown of old systems, were unknowingly wronged by those around them, or were illegitimate children or outcasts who suffered under rigid Japanese rural culture.
His detective character, Kindaichi Kousuke, is not only decribed to have his very own idea of "humanism" but also let's the culprit escape or choose his or her own death instead of handing them to the police.
Yokomizo himself said in the afterword to the full version of Murder at the Inn (1947) that he agreed to a critique in a discussion round, saying that the motive of the culprit was missing aspect to properly comprehend and understand the culprit.

This carried over into a lot of novels and so there is a mass of stories where the culprit ends up being more sympathetic than his or her victims...if the murder wasn't a string of unfortunate accidents in the first place. The only thing representative that comes to my mind in English translation, though, would be the Kindaichi Shounen manga series.

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Originally Posted by Leafsnail View Post
Yasu as portrayed in the VNs was an interesting character, but I don't think she was explored far enough to explain why she planned a murder spree (or did whatever else she was supposed to do). Hopefully the manga can fix that.
Well, most of the reasons were left implicit instead of being explicitly stated. That does work if you have the necessary genre-background, but in that sense Ryukishi apparently expected his readers to have read the same novels he had.
If we break it down, Yasu is the illegitimate child of a wealthy man and a secret lover he held imprisoned, who is also a child of incest. She went through a traumatic accident that likely damaged her body beyond repair in a way that might have left her sexless, never telling her about said fact and reassigning a gender that might not be "her's". She fell in love with a boy who promised her escape from a unhappy life, being left alone and forgotten. Her only "friends" for a long time are a guy who is obsessively in love with her and a girl who is so busy with herself, she doesn't even consider other people's emotions, while all adults around her treat her like an object. Her whole life story, along with immense wealth and destructive power is pushed on her during one night, probably traumatizing her further, and revealing the two people who she considered her "parents" to have lied to her and having used her to a degree.
Also, from a certain perspective, almost everybody is a small key factor to her unhappiness.

Kinzo bore her out of a crazy obsession and pushed her onto other people.
Genji and Kumasawa used her as a way to make up for their guilt.
Nanjo kept her alive in this state for the money and allowed the maltreatment of her mother.
Krauss financially ruined the family that she is supposed to inherit.
Natsuhi pushed her away and caused her current physical state.
Eva regards her a parasite that wants to latch onto her son and pushes that in her face.
Hideyoshi just stands by while people around him are miserable.
Rudolph is the reason that Battler left the family and her.
Kyrie is the one who caused the unstable situation in Battler's home.
Rosa holds a certain guilt in her mother's death and abuses her only true friend.
George is pushing her into fulfilling a certain ideal he has.
Jessica is often using her to feel better about herself.
Battler left her alone without reason or notice.
Gohda treats her as a nobody at every corner possible and doesn't really respect the Ushiromiya house.

Maria is the one person who actively approaches her as a friend, an equal, and who gives something back to her.

It's not an excuse for murderous thoughts, but it is a reason.
And let's be real, how often have even normal people considered in their mind, how easy it would be if certain people just vanished.
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Old 2014-02-28, 11:35   Link #34012
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I think that's an overly-sympathetic portrayal of her mindset, however. It's true that if you consider it from the angle you've presented that a person could perhaps appear to have thoughts running along those lines, but a lot of those facts and states are... questionable, at the least.

A harsh and entirely fair criticism of Yasu as a character is that she is desperate for understanding but remarkably bad at understanding other people. Battler is the prime example of this. Yes, okay, he "left her alone," but it seems that in her mind that was the only thing that mattered. Remarkably little consideration or empathy was paid to the fact that... y'know... the guy's mother just died, and his father was an uncouth jerk who immediately remarried to a woman he'd clearly gotten pregnant while Battler's mother was still alive. It may have been a bit selfish of Battler not to contact her for years, but it's also really damn selfish of Yasu to ignore that there are other people in Battler's life that mean things to him (to say nothing of matters like principle). Read a certain way, Yasu is basically just upset that she wasn't the most important thing to Battler. She grows attached to George in spite of - indeed, because of - his controlling personality, because George pretends that Shannon is the most important desire in his life.

Likewise, Yasu pretty much believes the entire story of her tragic past on the basis of people telling her so, but we know there are large gaps in the story because there simply have to be. But I think Yasu wants to believe all the things that she's told, because they're tragic, and she wants to portray herself as sympathetically as possible. Given that the impetus for the entire tale is drawn up in stories Yasu wrote, I think it's fair to be critical of her character since she could be to some extent unreliable as a source of information. Not necessarily in the case of factual truth (although her evidence for much of that is scant), but because her emotional truth was always designed to evoke a particular response.

Yasu wants to look pitiful. Yasu wants to be sympathized with. Yasu wants to be acknowledged, even if it requires taking blame for something she wasn't solely responsible for. While this is certainly sad and maybe even something for which she does deserve sympathy, one can easily look at the other side of the coin and say "Well, you could've called Battler, you're rich, you have great opportunities and the potential for a bright future, your problems really aren't as bad as you want everybody to think they are." Sure, it's clear that she was depressed enough that she wasn't capable of seeing things in that light, but as observers we do have the ability to consider all information and its sources and be suspicious of it.

Mind you, I'm not arguing this is a flaw with the work necessarily; I'm arguing that being self-centered and histrionic is Yasu's legitimate personality flaw, and that we ought to acknowledge that this is the case. As you said, it's not an excuse, but I do feel like there's a certain contingent of readers who are willing to overlook this blatantly obvious authorial unreliability, even though the work itself challenges this by having multiple in-universe authors with slightly different takes on facts and characters.
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Old 2014-02-28, 12:09   Link #34013
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Well, I wouldn't give too much on it right now, since the chapters 20-22 were called Hachijo Toya and so far there's no sign of any actual Toya or his accident...unless of course the whole Erika/Battler Golden Land/Goats battle is supposed to show Toya's situation.
I would wait regarding that one, personally.
Well, I assumed the Toya Hachijo title didn't refer to Toya but to the writer Tohya Hachijo, who showed up in chap 20 both as Featherine and as... well Ikuko, although Toya got mentioned and who's about to celebrate the party in which Eva's diary will be opened.

Toya, the real one, showed up in chap 24 where his history from his incident to the moment he recovered part of his memory by hearing the name Rokkenjima was told.

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Originally Posted by haguruma View Post
I can't really agree with Renall here, who claims that he should have made his message more accessible and more clear towards the masses. I see the narrative being critical of almost everybody's behavior, but not shoving that into our face. I do think that Ryukishi should probably have spent less time writing cool fights between his kyara and invest a little more time into their interaction...on the other hand this runs counter-productive to the framework of the series.
I don't know, I didn't exactly want to have it spelled out in capital letters but... well, I would have apprecciated if they underlined it a little more as sometimes I got the feeling they were justifying it a bit too much without however giving us proper basis to accept the justification.

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Originally Posted by Captain Bluebeard View Post
I'm also not very familiar with the Japanese culture, but one thing I can say for sure is that nobody would just laugh off a man trying to grab a girl's breast in public (and without her wanting to) without finding it at least a little disturbing in any culture.
I think the laughing part isn't in his grabbing attempt but in the fact he fails it and gets slapped away... which is something many found funny in Dragonball as well, to mention a famous manga of a famous mangaka.

And, to be honest, that's exactly the effect Battler wants to get as he does it knowing he'll be slapped away and when Shannon doesn't try to push him away he'll thanks Jessica for stopping him and will insist for Shannon to hit him as well.

Meaning although he'd like to touch her breasts he wasn't really trying to molest her.

Not that I like this sort of jokes, but really, that seems to be the running humour in Japan and the gag Battler is trying to re-create with his grabbing attempts.

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Originally Posted by goldendust View Post
It wouldn't surprise me if Shannon was given a wig by Genji. Although the other panels may indicate that Shannon may have considered getting a blond wig since Battler's ideal woman is a blond/busty model.
The more and more I learn about Genji the less I like him.

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Originally Posted by goldendust View Post
I admit after numerous rereads that the motive was more understandable but during the first read it was hard to understand let alone empathize with.

Furthermore I think many of us in mystery stories are too accustomed with motives that either the culprit was wronged by many of the victims or the culprit was a bastard. While Ryukishi does play with those expectations as shown that he had Beatrice play the "evil" witch in the fantasy scenes but Beatrice's actual mindset was conveyed in such roundabout way that it results in disappointment or confusion.
Well, technically Yasu was wronged in many ways but the situation is too over the top to be easy to deal with it. Honestly I was hoping Ep 7 would sort of semplify things, not introduce us to such a complex story it seems more improbable and hard to believe than a witch existing on Rokkenjima.
Although Jessica, George and Battler all failed to understand her... well, picturing she's their illegittimate cousin/aunt/uncle that Natsuhi tried to toss off a cliff and that she actually had her sex switched is... well, a bit hard to picture.

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Originally Posted by goldendust View Post
How would that even work from a cliff fall? I mean a female infant losing her ability to properly produce hormones by falling off a cliff. Speaking of hormones, on a reread I did wonder if Kanon's slim figure and inability to lift bags of manure was suppose to indicate a lack of testosterone compared to a healthy male young adult like Battler.

Not to mention that a lot of other indications point towards Yasu being male. Kinzo's treatment of Lion. Natsuhi's lack of surprise about the child's gender. Kanon's existence and why being furniture seems to hit him the hardest.
Yasu is undoubtely male but some types of brain damage or uterus damage can cause a woman to not hormonally develop so technically that alone isn't proof.

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Originally Posted by goldendust View Post
Besides it is one of things I always wondered about in Umineko. If Yasu never solved the epitaph, would Genji have come clean during the time Yasu goes through puberty? Or given how Genji told Yasu the hint, would Genji have kept helping Yasu until he figured everything out? Or would he have told a modified version of the story on his body got mutilated?
I don't know but really, I found disgusting how they let the issue on hold for so long. It wasn't like they permanently planned to hide it and it wasn't like growing up would make simpler for Yasu to deal with it since she was building up expectations over expectations and even trying to get into love relations.

What they did to her was worse than keeping the truth hidden from Ange.

Last edited by jjblue1; 2014-02-28 at 12:35.
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Old 2014-02-28, 12:26   Link #34014
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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
Mind you, I'm not arguing this is a flaw with the work necessarily; I'm arguing that being self-centered and histrionic is Yasu's legitimate personality flaw, and that we ought to acknowledge that this is the case.
Haha, put like that I wholeheartedly agree with you
I think a large part of that evasive nature, unable to cope with stress and confrontation can even be seen in Beatrice, who has such a loud and aggressive front. Even Beato, when confronted with opposition, chooses to put on a show, to shout and scream and search for people to blame, instead of admitting her own faults.

Yasu is fatalistic to a fault but also loves shifting the blame. This can already seen by her so readily reaching for the story of Beatrice to explain her own clumsiness. Would she have called Battler, there would have been a chance of him refusing her and only she would be to blame. In her mindset it was "easier" to wait for a miracle than to become active.
Maybe I can understand that because I am like that myself sometimes, ignoring problems hoping they'll go away even though knowing they won't. Especially in times of stress this kind of escape-behavior just happens subconsciously. This is something that can also be seen in her behavior shown in EP7: "Just one more year, it's a trial!" "Just a little longer, I believe it will become better." "Just a little more, I shouldn't doubt." All this until negative evidence has piled up so high that all believe in success crumbles.

I believe that rather than sympathize with her, we are asked to pity her a little and have mercy on her. Her life and her death were punishment enough, we don't need to harass her by continuously treading the mill of her unfortunate story.
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Old 2014-02-28, 12:36   Link #34015
Renall
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To be honest, I think some of the people who fail to see this particular flaw in Yasu - one which, if anything, actually helps realize her character as something more than a sad sack pity party by giving her legitimate human flaws - might be a tad histrionic and self-centered themselves. They empathize with Yasu because Yasu is a lot like them, but ironically their capacity for empathy is somewhat stunted when faced with characters who have problems that don't match up with their own.

For example, I always defend Battler's actions because I can empathize with his situation as well. Had we been told nothing whatsoever about why Battler had gone away for so long it would be easier to see him in a more negative light, but the text actually tells us what he did and why he did it, and those reasons are understandable. We're faced with the harsh possibility that maybe Yasu just wasn't as important to Battler as the woman who raised him or the way his father disrespected her memory. Yasu's portrayal tries to cast this as an error on Battler's part, but we only see it as such because Yasu apparently didn't know Asumu at all and never mentions her. There are hints, however, that she and Battler were quite close. I know what it's like to not see somebody for years, but I also know what it's like to lose somebody forever. It's not easy to judge Battler's decision, so it's not fair to just take Yasu's judgment as my own because of course she sees herself as more important than a person she doesn't even know. But that doesn't make her right.

I'm not saying those people are anyone posting here, though, that sort of thing is largely absent from this thread. But they do exist elsewhere, and it grates on me. Understanding Yasu is fine, but when it gets to the point of apologism then you're just sort of taking her presented self-pity at face value and giving her the attention she demands without questioning whether she's manipulating you into doing exactly that.
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Old 2014-02-28, 12:59   Link #34016
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Hm, I like Yasu. But I always thought the painting Battler over as bad person was meant to show her selfish side? I even assumed the text treated it that way.

Honestly, her selfishness is the reason I like her so much probably. I understand her motive, I think, but of course I do not justify it. No matter what Ryu wrote, who could ever think "Oh I see, kill them then"

In Our Confession, didn't Dlanor write something that it was Yasu herself who could not understand her words of "Without Love, it Cannot be Seen" ?

I was sure Ryukishi intended for us to realize that Yasu was quite selfish when she was accusing Battler. But it's still sad, reading EP7 for me. So, I probably fit into the sad sack pity party group of fans XDD
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Old 2014-02-28, 13:14   Link #34017
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Renall View Post
For example, I always defend Battler's actions because I can empathize with his situation as well.

I know what it's like to not see somebody for years, but I also know what it's like to lose somebody forever.
Of course, both is hard because in the first case something is preventing you from seeing them and something could technically be down about that, though it might take a miracle, while in the other case it is absolute that you will never see that person again. I know both cases as well, actually also loosing my mother though a few years later than Battler (I wasn't a minor anymore...though really not by much) and avoiding my father who is kind of similar to Rudolph in a way
I actually was in a similar situation back then, having made promises and then just avoiding them because I was busy with myself. Looking back now I know how that might have hurt people, but in moments like these, especially when there is more than just grieving going on, things just get cast by the wayside...not out of ill will, but simply because all people involved are overwhelmed.

Still I wouldn't say I would defend Battler over Yasu on an emotional level. He also acted selfish, though also caused by an understandably horrible situation. The Ushiromiya family just systematically breeds disfunctional people
Yes, what Yasu did had probably a bigger influence on leading up to the crime than what Battler did, or what Rosa did, or anybody else alive on the island except maybe Genji and Kumasawa.

In the end I'd probably say that I think nobody on the island deserves unlimited forgiveness, except maybe Maria (though even that is debatable...but let's not get into the culpability of minors), but nobody deserves unlimited blame either.

They all had their horrible moments and their shining moments, the problem is that those weak people who ALL tended towards unhealthy escapism (be it investment, gambling, sex, daydreaming, lies, manipulation, abuse, or physical and psychological power plays) were handed an ultimate tool of hurried escapism.
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Old 2014-02-28, 14:07   Link #34018
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I was sure Ryukishi intended for us to realize that Yasu was quite selfish when she was accusing Battler. But it's still sad, reading EP7 for me. So, I probably fit into the sad sack pity party group of fans XDD
The thing is, at times Chiru really doesn't sell this well at all. About the most candid the two of them seem to get is early in ep8. Otherwise, Beatrice seems fairly content to let Battler admit the greater share of fault except when she's directly called out on it. A lot of characters who could or ought to call Yasu out don't, except Ange who kinda comes across as whiny (because she is, but still).

I mean fine, respect their suffering and all that but it still helps to remind people who like to talk up how bad they have it that the people who they see as having hurt them have their own pains and joys too. Then again, maybe if someone had actually done that at some point none of that other crap would've had to have happened.

Honestly that's kind of the point the Beatrice/Natsuhi manga chapter makes. Shame that wasn't in the original, eh?
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Old 2014-02-28, 14:20   Link #34019
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I mean fine, respect their suffering and all that but it still helps to remind people who like to talk up how bad they have it that the people who they see as having hurt them have their own pains and joys too. Then again, maybe if someone had actually done that at some point none of that other crap would've had to have happened.
I would have really loved to see some of the developments in these situations

Kinzo: I'm so sorry, but I was forced to marry your mother and let it out on all of you. Btw. I kept the illegitimate daughter I had with an Italian escapee trapped in the forest behind the mansion and had an incestuous child with her. I hope you understand that I have to leave everything to that child now, don't you?!

Krauss: Hey you guys, I invested all of dad's money into these awesome business venture my cute associate said they would be worthwhile, now we technically don't even own the island anymore, that's why I hid dad's death.

Rudolph: Battler, cut Kyrie a break, I exchanged you and Asumu's dead baby at birth because I was already married to Asumu and it would have caused so much trouble to get a divorce.

Maria: HELP! MY MOMMY IS HITTING ME!!

Genji: So, you know Inspector, the story is like this...*2 days later* and that is why you need to take all of us into custody.

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Old 2014-02-28, 14:29   Link #34020
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To be fair though, Rudolf seems to recognize that he does have to say something at some point, even knowing that Kyrie and Battler are probably going to go "You did WHAT?" The truth isn't always nice in the beginning... you just kind of have to trust that clearing the air will make sense of things.

The manga makes that fairly obvious, Beatrice seems very understanding of Natsuhi's isolation and shame and to a certain extent they have a similar sort of issue with their self-image (Yasu sees herself as incapable of living as a male or a female and thus basically incapable of living at all, Natsuhi sees herself as worthless if she can't have a child because that's all anyone cares about her for). The fact that Beatrice reacts as she does sort of suggests to me that this was information Yasu didn't know; she's aware of the alleged abandonment and sees Natsuhi in a poor light because of it. She's unaware that Natsuhi's actions were a spur-of-the-moment regrettable impulse because she realized that accepting someone else's child as her own was ultimately an admission to herself that she wasn't worth anything and even had to fake the one task that anyone expected of her.

Although, again, the scene is rather oh-you-poor-Yasu-you, but at least Beatrice expresses some regret that she didn't understand Natsuhi's position.
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