[Game] Umineko - Spoilers, Theories, Interpretations

[Verg Avesta]

Originally Posted by Renall

She could be hinting at a new character, though that character apparently wasn't manifested during ep5 unless referring to Dlanor, who does have swords. But it is out of character for Dlanor to participate in murders, so I don't know.

Hmm, well, there was that LIG which was mentioned few pages back, I think, but I'm not sure if the issue of that "cut" character was resolved already. Other than that, only one holding a sword and one Gaap wouldn't know would be Dlanor, but yeah......it doesn't seem likely.

Originally Posted by Renall

EDIT: The other possibility is she's wondering if a particular murder weapon will manifest itself as a character. The neck cuts seem to recur in several games, so it is apparently at least one killer's established method to use a blade of some sort. Other than the cleaver, I don't know of any that we've been shown.

The cleaver seems to be the only murder weapon revealed at the moment capable of producing wounds like that........if they were real, that is. Too bad we don't have Clue-style list of the murder weapons.

[Tyabann]

Originally Posted by Verg Avesta

Is this referring to Dlanor (which I think is unlikely, seeing that Dlanor never takes part of the murders), and if it isn't, who is it referring to?

Well, the only other character with any kind of association with blades is Kanon. One of the only other times the neck wounds have shown up is when Dark Kanon killed Kumasawa and Genji, and I believe he's the only person to use the cleaver/billhook.

Originally Posted by Marion

Well I think EP 2's 1st twilight can easily be fake.

Impossible. The six people were already dead by the time they were discovered!

That said, it's possible for the organs to be fake, but judging by Rosa's reaction...

[Raiza Sunozaki]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

I'd say none. None of the siblings would interested in magic tricks and Kinzo doesn't consider them worthy to learn. But I think he did had a pupil in Beatrice/sayo/kanon/shannon/personX/whateveryoucallit

Maybe this is what he meant when none of the siblings were able to succeed him. That none of them had the mindset or ability to perform magic, so none of them could become the next head of the family.
Linking this to the fact that solving the epitaph grants the solver headship, maybe knowledge of stage magic is important to solving the epitaph.

[Judoh]

Originally Posted by Oliver

...I just wondered, who of Kinzo's four children would be the successor to his stage magic tradition, if any...

I once again get Rudolf -- the showiest of the four, pompous and uttering things Battler considers embarrassing like it's nothing special even when not in moments of emotional strain. Compare what little we see of Rudolf with Kinzo's speech in Ep4.

Lots of trains of thought unexpectedly and with no explanations stop at Rudolf because once you get to Rudolf, there's nowhere else to go from there.

It'd be interesting if Rudolf was making occult items. Like I've said before Rudolf's company is a niche company so what he makes is probably not part of any mainstream market.

If he's not making the stakes. The joke theory I'd have is that he does VN translations like witch hunt and Mangagamer. It's canon in both of Ryukishi's universes that Card captor Sakura existed in the 1980's. And providing VN's to foreigners would definitely be a "niche market".

Originally Posted by Verg Avesta

When Gaap is moving Genji during the First Twilight, she mentions that she "Can't think of anyone good" amongst those who could make a slice like the one on Genji's neck, and wonders if anyone capable of slice like that has manifested yet. Is this referring to Dlanor (which I think is unlikely, seeing that Dlanor never takes part of the murders), and if it isn't, who is it referring to?

Kumasawa and Nanjo were found outside all sliced up in episode 2. The weapon is suggested to be a Katana in the tips. So this has happened before. Other than Kanon, Gohda is the only other person who touches any kind of Knife though.

[Raiza Sunozaki]

Originally Posted by Verg Avesta

Oh, and another thing, but this time a question. When Gaap is moving Genji during the First Twilight, she mentions that she "Can't think of anyone good" amongst those who could make a slice like the one on Genji's neck, and wonders if anyone capable of slice like that has manifested yet. Is this referring to Dlanor (which I think is unlikely, seeing that Dlanor never takes part of the murders), and if it isn't, who is it referring to?

If Gaap is ignoring the fact that Genji might've done it himself, then it might've been Genji doing it himself. As an old companion of Kinzo's, I'd say Genji would be skilled in stage magic himself.

[Marion]

Originally Posted by Oliver

...I just wondered, who of Kinzo's four children would be the successor to his stage magic tradition, if any...

I once again get Rudolf -- the showiest of the four, pompous and uttering things Battler considers embarrassing like it's nothing special even when not in moments of emotional strain. Compare what little we see of Rudolf with Kinzo's speech in Ep4.

Lots of trains of thought unexpectedly and with no explanations stop at Rudolf because once you get to Rudolf, there's nowhere else to go from there.

Except Rudolf told Battler as a child that magic and demons don't exist and that people who make stuff up like that have nothing better to do than scaring people. Unless he was trying to turn Battler away from that stuff.

[Judoh]

Originally Posted by Marion

Except Rudolf told Battler as a child that magic and demons don't exist and that people who make stuff up like that have nothing better to do than scaring people. Unless he was trying to turn Battler away from that stuff.

if you look at it the other way around that means Rudolf's been tricked before right? He's just advising Battler not to look to deep into it. So yes I think he was trying to turn him away from it.

[Oliver]

Originally Posted by Judoh

It'd be interesting if Rudolf was making occult items. Like I've said before Rudolf's company is a niche company so what he makes is probably not part of any mainstream market.

If he's not making the stakes.
*snip*

He actually could be. The interesting thing about Rudolf's business is that he managed to stumble into a trademark dispute in the US, essentially through no fault of his own. While Hideyoshi has problems because he didn't anticipate the chance of a hostile takeover upon IPO, Krauss has problems because he feels the wind better than anyone but runs ahead of it by about twenty years, and Rosa's problems are unclear in the first place, Rudolf's business is faced with an unforeseeable situation even businesses native to US stumble into now and again.

I wonder if there's a trademark filed on the word 'witch' somewhere. After all, Ion Storm did trademark the phrase 'Suck it down' for anything starting with baby Jesuses and ending with kneepads.

[Judoh]

Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon

The six people were already dead by the time they were discovered!

That said, it's possible for the organs to be fake, but judging by Rosa's reaction...

When the six were killed in the chapel, the culprit was inside the chapel!

Nobody is hiding!

So obviously if this person was in the chapel they can't be the culprit and the discoverer right? Unless you argue Shannon did it. Rosa has a less than perfect alibi.

[Tyabann]

Originally Posted by Judoh

So obviously if this person was in the chapel they can't be the culprit and the discoverer right? Unless you argue Shannon did it. Rosa has a less than perfect alibi.

All that red means is that when the bodies were found by the survivors (Rosa + servants), they were dead at that point in time.

[Raiza Sunozaki]

I think Oliver managed to solve the chapel problem without using the key to open the door, but at the same time, I think there's some red truth that doesn't allow that to go through.
Also if I remember correctly, this is before Battler and Beato establish the details of "Beatrice's Closed Room Definition." So I think this is more of a situation of it not being a closed room, instead of a closed room. I think it's more likely that it only appeared to be a closed room, much like how a stage magician might lock something up in a box, give the key to a random audience member, and then proceed to remove the object from out of the box.
How to do this without breaking the red constraints, I'm not sure yet.

[Judoh]

Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon

All that red means is that when the bodies were found by the survivors (Rosa + servants), they were dead at that point in time.

Or that they were dead by the time Nanjo arrived. There is no context about "when the culprit was in the chapel" in that scene with Lambdadelta and Bern when they made that red about the culprit. So I can pick any time after that that I want to.

[Oliver]

Originally Posted by Raiza Sunozaki

I think Oliver managed to solve the chapel problem without using the key to open the door, but at the same time, I think there's some red truth that doesn't allow that to go through.
Also if I remember correctly, this is before Battler and Beato establish the details of "Beatrice's Closed Room Definition." So I think this is more of a situation of it not being a closed room, instead of a closed room. I think it's more likely that it only appeared to be a closed room, much like how a stage magician might lock something up in a box, give the key to a random audience member, and then proceed to remove the object from out of the box.
How to do this without breaking the red constraints, I'm not sure yet.

To reiterate, The chapel lock is broken, or otherwise is not a lock at all, but part of a completely different mechanism for another purpose entirely. Turning the key provides resistance, but does not actually move the bolt, and the lock does not have a 'locked' state. The door is held closed by friction, and the power of Kinzo's strict orders not to approach it. All other behaviour of the door is an illusion that results from our expectations that the lock is working fine.

The red only says that the chapel door cannot be unlocked without it's unique key -- but that is still true if it cannot be unlocked at all, and it does not actually follow from this red statement that the inverse is true. Therefore, it is impossible to lock the chapel door even if you do have the unique chapel key!

The red also says that if the door is locked, it prevents all methods of entry and exit, but if the door cannot be locked at all, this red is still true -- the door is merely never ever locked.

P.S. The unusual resistance of the door and it's unorthodox behavior is numerously hinted at whenever it is interacted with, as per Knox rules. Oh, and to satisfy the formal requirements of the blue. It must deny witches by itself. This makes it possible for a human culprit to enter the chapel at any time without ever laying hands on the key in Maria's bag!

[Laserworm]

Originally Posted by Oliver

To reiterate, The chapel lock is broken, or otherwise is not a lock at all, but part of a completely different mechanism for another purpose entirely. Turning the key provides resistance, but does not actually move the bolt, and the lock does not have a 'locked' state. The door is held closed by friction, and the power of Kinzo's strict orders not to approach it. All other behaviour of the door is an illusion that results from our expectations that the lock is working fine.

The red only says that the chapel door cannot be unlocked without it's unique key -- but that is still true if it cannot be unlocked at all, and it does not actually follow from this red statement that the inverse is true. Therefore, it is impossible to lock the chapel door even if you do have the unique chapel key!

The red also says that if the door is locked, it prevents all methods of entry and exit, but if the door cannot be locked at all, this red is still true -- the door is merely never ever locked.

P.S. The unusual resistance of the door and it's unorthodox behavior is numerously hinted at whenever it is interacted with, as per Knox rules. Oh, and to satisfy the formal requirements of the blue. It must deny witches by itself. This makes it possible for a human culprit to enter the chapel at any time without ever laying hands on the key in Maria's bag!

Not true the door can lock and has a locked state. Battler watches Rosa unlock and lock the door over and over again.

[Judoh]

Originally Posted by Laserworm

Not true the door can lock and has a locked state. Battler watches Rosa unlock and lock the door over and over again.

Uh... no he didn't... Rosa was already inside the chapel when Battler arrived. The people who saw her unlock the door were Shannon and Genji. So it falls under Knox's 9th.

Strangely though during that amount of time Battler actually does some investigating in the servant's room. That's the only time I really see him take his role seriously.

[Laserworm]

Originally Posted by Judoh

Uh... no he didn't... Rosa was already inside the chapel when Battler arrived. The people who saw her unlock the door were Shannon and Genji.

Yes he does. It is after they leave and are talking outside. Rosa takes the key and goes up the to chapel door locks it tries the door, it doesn't open. Then she unlocks it, then opens the door. and then repeat. Battler says something like "I noticed Rosa-obasan locking the door, then trying the door and then unlocking it over and over"

[Judoh]

Originally Posted by Laserworm

Yes he does. It is after they leave and are talking outside. Rosa takes the key and goes up the to chapel door locks it tries the door, it doesn't open. Then she unlocks it, then opens the door. and then repeat. Battler says something like "I noticed Rosa-obasan locking trying the door and then unlocking it over and over"

That demonstrates the unusual resistance of the door as per Oliver's blue truth no?

A door that can neither be locked nor unlocked is kind of interesting though I wonder if that would mean anything for the scene in Natsuhi's room too.

EDIT: on second thought probably not.

[Oliver]

Originally Posted by Laserworm

Yes he does. It is after they leave and are talking outside. Rosa takes the key and goes up the to chapel door locks it tries the door, it doesn't open. Then she unlocks it, then opens the door. and then repeat. Battler says something like "I noticed Rosa-obasan locking the door, then trying the door and then unlocking it over and over"

Rosa thinks that locking the door should prevent it from opening so she basically doesn't pull quite as hard. There's no way to tell if she is expending identical effort every time she pulls, and Battler neither does it himself nor has enough red about it.

EDIT: To expand a bit. Most locks with a handle you can turn, as the chapel door does, actually have two bolts, one flat bolt that holds the door locked, and one slanted bolt that holds the door closed when it is not locked. The slanted bolt is equipped with a spring and normally turns and opens when the key is turned.

In this case, the lock is broken so that the flat bolt never extends. The slanted bolt also works erratically and sometimes does not turn when the handle turns. It requires a specific angle to catch on the slanted bolt and open, and the door is also stuck and requires a certain force, as is hinted in other cases of interacting with that lock. Rosa thinks she locked the door, but just turns the handle at a different angle each time, sometimes catching and sometimes not. When she thinks she locked the door she gives up earlier.

[Laserworm]

Originally Posted by Oliver

Rosa thinks that locking the door should prevent it from opening so she basically doesn't pull quite as hard. There's no way to tell if she is expending identical effort every time she pulls, and Battler neither does it himself nor has enough red about it.

Found the point.

Originally Posted by Rosa; Ep2 Outside the Chapel

"There's no mistake! It was closed!! I opened it!! Definitely!!"

Rosa oba-san kept closing the door, locking it, pulling on it to check the lock, and opening it again.

Are there any clues to suggest Rosa wasn't pulling hard on the door? And Battler says he looked around the chapel for clues. (He does his job here) Also something that is a little strange is that George mentions that maybe 'Maria' is meaning the virgin Mary and then he mentions a little bit of occult stuff. Rosa asks him if he heard about that bit of occult stuff from Maria. And George says ".....Something like that."

I have two theories for the chapel. The door wasn't locked. but that makes it seem strange that Rosa goes to get the key. My other idea is. The chapel door can be locked without the key. The red states that the chapel can't be unlocked without the key, but never does it say it can only be locked with the key. Beatrice never said the Chapel was a closed-room. Though Oliver your theory sounds like it works too.

[Jan-Poo]

"something like that" probably means "yeah I heard it from someone, but not Maria".

I guess he heard it from "Shannon".