Aurora, Colorado Movie Theater Shooting (July 20, 2012)

[mangamuscle]

Originally Posted by kyp275

I don't know about Mexico, but in the US your personal medical records are actually considered private

The cashier does not have to know what medication (or even if he is truly on medication), only that the person failed a background check. Simple and efficient.

have it be available in "seconds" at every counter? are you friggin nuts? why don't you go ahead and post all your personal information on facebook first?

Me thinks thou doth protest too much.

[Ledgem]

Originally Posted by mangamuscle

Me thinks thou doth protest too much.

What you say makes sense, but there are valid concerns about having a healthcare database that can be accessed and utilized outside of the healthcare system. You should not discount those so readily.

(I won't bring them up here so as not to derail the thread.)

[kyp275]

Originally Posted by mangamuscle

The cashier does not have to know what medication (or even if he is truly on medication), only that the person failed a background check. Simple and efficient.

You've completely missed the point, there is already a system like that called NICS, which already covers people who are deemed mentally defective. What you're asking for is not just a simple background check, what you're effectively asking for is the complete publication of every person's private medical information to a government agency that has absolutely nothing to do with health care.

Originally Posted by mangamuscle

Me thinks thou doth protest too much.

Me thinks thou doesn't give two hoots about personal rights and freedom. I'm hardly a conservative, but that's way over the line even for me.

[mangamuscle]

Originally Posted by Ledgem

What you say makes sense, but there are valid concerns about having a healthcare database that can be accessed and utilized outside of the healthcare system. You should not discount those so readily.

(I won't bring them up here so as not to derail the thread.)

I do not think this derails the thread, I think this should be the core of the discussion, if the USA as a society is not ready to address the issue of how to solve this problem now under the false pretense of "it violates my constitutional rights" then you have in your hands a time bomb no different from 9/11 since you only need someone with half a brain to come up with a plan that can kill thousands or more (Osama bin laden was not the smartest fellow and look what he did).

I perfectly understand the dangers of having the goverment access your private data ad lib, but there should be very specific situations where they should and there should be up to date security protocols that prevent the theft of said data. But plin opposiion to such a system IMO is no different from a child making excuses for not having an injection at the doctor.

[GundamFan0083]

Originally Posted by mangamuscle

I do not think this derails the thread, I think this should be the core of the discussion, if the USA as a society is not ready to address the issue of how to solve this problem now under the false pretense of "it violates my constitutional rights" then you have in your hands a time bomb no different from 9/11 since you only need someone with half a brain to come up with a plan that can kill thousands or more (Osama bin laden was not the smartest fellow and look what he did).

I perfectly understand the dangers of having the goverment access your private data ad lib, but there should be very specific situations where they should and there should be up to date security protocols that prevent the theft of said data. But plin opposiion to such a system IMO is no different from a child making excuses for not having an injection at the doctor.

I disagree.
There is a very simple and effective way to help prevent this kind of thing happening (though it will still happen, just hopefully not as often) and that is to make it mandatory (under Article 1, section 8 of the US constitution) that anyone wishing to purchase a firearm join the Civilian Marksmanship Program.

I've been a member since the 1980s.

[kyp275]

Originally Posted by mangamuscle

I do not think this derails the thread, I think this should be the core of the discussion, if the USA as a society is not ready to address the issue of how to solve this problem now under the false pretense of "it violates my constitutional rights" then you have in your hands a time bomb no different from 9/11 since you only need someone with half a brain to come up with a plan that can kill thousands or more (Osama bin laden was not the smartest fellow and look what he did).

There are so much strawman and red herrings in your post it's not even funny.

9/11 was an attack by an international terrorist organization, not some guy going nuts on a shooting spree. No amount of health record check of people buying guns will have any effect on any attacks of that nature. One is a foreign policy/geopolitical issue, the other is a domestic crime/social issue, get it straight.

Also, real mass casualty events are not caused by mere firearms. You think that health record check would've done anything to stop Timothy McVeigh? Here's a hint, no.

Maybe you don't care about Mexico's constitution, but those of us in the US actually cares about ours, thank you very much.

[mangamuscle]

Originally Posted by kyp275

9/11 was an attack by an international terrorist organization, not some guy going nuts on a shooting spree.

You fail to realize that a similar plan could have been done just the same by a nutjob, the security hole was there for anyone to exploit, the motives will vary, but it is delusional to think it is not easier (and cheaper) for a citizen to do such an operation.

Also, real mass casualty events are not caused by mere firearms. You think that health record check would've done anything to stop Timothy McVeigh? Here's a hint, no.

You are sincerely saying that if a security check will not catch ALL of the posible offenders then it is worthless and should not be implemented? With that inane logic no security checks should be implemented at all since there is no such thing as catch them all security check.

Originally Posted by GundamFan0083

mandatory ... join the Civilian Marksmanship Program.

I will have to disagree, not all nutjobs are easy for most people to easily recognize and having such training will increase the chances of him doing damage with his weapon(s) and there is a chance he will get to know other nutjobs (or regular joes that drink to much of the political extremism kool-aid) and do an even bigger attack.

[kyp275]

Originally Posted by mangamuscle

You fail to realize that a similar plan could have been done just the same by a nutjob, the security hole was there for anyone to exploit, the motives will vary, but it is delusional to think it is not easier (and cheaper) for a citizen to do such an operation.

Last time I checked no human, nutjobs included, have figured out a way to make 18 other clones of himself and carry out a terrorist attack by "himself"

Let's assume for a minute that your slip-up is due to a lack of command of the english grammar, and that you actually meant a group of nutjobs, then at that point you're effectively dealing with a terrorist cell, whether foreign or domestic, neither of which your little health record check would be able to do anything about anyway.

Originally Posted by mangamuscle

You are sincerely saying that if a security check will not catch ALL of the posible offenders then it is worthless and should not be implemented? With that inane logic no security checks should be implemented at all since there is no such thing as catch them all security check.

No, I'm saying your idea of a "security check" will accomplish nothing while incurring a huge cost in terms of civil liberty and monetary costs.

Also, I find it hilarious how you continue to employ your red herring. What does a health record check for people's prescription drug have anything to do with terrorist attacks?

[Archon_Wing]

All I can say is that if one wants to end their miserable existence, to do it far away from any nearby society or people. If one has any shred of human decency, don't drag other people into this.

My prayers go out to those affected.

[GundamFan0083]

Originally Posted by mangamuscle

I will have to disagree, not all nutjobs are easy for most people to easily recognize and having such training will increase the chances of him doing damage with his weapon(s) and there is a chance he will get to know other nutjobs (or regular joes that drink to much of the political extremism kool-aid) and do an even bigger attack.

No likely mangamuscle.
The CMP has many military members, ex-military members (like me), police, and National Guardsmen as members.
If anything, the police members of a CMP club will see the signs of anyone espousing outlandish ideas.

Honestly, the way you make it sound, this type of tragedy is totally unavoidable and thus there is nothing we can do.
Gun-control does not work, we've been trying it since the 1800s and it is a total failure, so now it's time to start finding ways to route out the antisocial tendencies that most (though not all) of these shooters claim to have experienced.
Making people join a group to buy a firearm will help their sense of belonging to a community far more than any licensing or registration.
It is the sense of being alone and/or hating the world that seems to drive many of these mass shooters.
Perhaps, if they are part of a group they will loose that sense of being alone and maybe reach out to get help from friends or comrades in the CMP.

[Triple_R]

I've thought about this shooting a lot, as well as other ones like it.

It's very sad, of course. And my thoughts and prayers go out to the victims and their families.

But as shallow as it may sound to say, I kind of think that in a world of several billion people, you're just going to have at least a few very, very bad apples like this killer.

Don't get me wrong, I'm sure cultural issues play some role at least. There has to be some logical reason why this sort of tragedy seems to happen in North America a lot more often than it does in Asia, for example.

But trying to fix this in a top-down way strikes me as very, very hard, even if the people aiming for that are very well-intentioned.

[Mr. DJ]

Apparently, Louie Gohmert (Texas Republican...ugh >.<) thinks if everyone was packing...this wouldn't have happened -_-

"Quick guys, pull out your gun in a crowded theater and shoot into the smoke!"

[Daniel E.]

Guys, please try and stay on topic. You may argue that what you are discussing has some conection with the incident at hand, but in truth, you are already walking away from the main topic with each post made.

[kyp275]

very well.

[Mr. DJ]

http://www.tmz.com/2012/07/21/james-...ofile-website/

...guy dyed his hair orange and said he was the Joker o.O

apparently they found his profile on AdultFriendFinder, which was made a few days before the movie premier and it had the tagline "will you visit me in prison?"

wow...

[kyp275]

Originally Posted by Mr. DJ

apparently they found his profile on AdultFriendFinder, which was made a few days before the movie premier and it had the tagline "will you visit me in prison?"

Bubba will,

repeatedly.

[felix]

Originally Posted by Mr. DJ

"Quick guys, pull out your gun in a crowded theater and shoot into the smoke!"

Not a lot of good guns do you when everyone is (already) dead like the people in that theater.

Has there ever been a case where the gun laws actually saved someone? since I'm assuming that's the point, to save your life, not assure mutual murder happens.

[Mr. DJ]

Pretty sure there has been, though that Stand Your Ground law in Florida skews the data...

Honestly don't know what Gohmert was thinking...the guy was decked out from head to toe in gear, including a ballistic helmet

[GundamFan0083]

Originally Posted by felix

Not a lot of good guns do you when everyone is (already) dead like the people in that theater.

Has there ever been a case where the gun laws actually saved someone? since I'm assuming that's the point, to save your life, not assure mutual murder happens.

No, but gun-control laws were blamed for the Luby's Massacre in Killeen Texas.
This is why Texas has their castle doctrine and shall-issue concealed carry laws in place now.

In that tragedy, Doctor Suzanna Hupp had a weapon in her car, but because she could not legally have it in the restaurant at the time (nor anyone else) the murderer was free to kill as he pleased.

This shooting in Colorado is different than Luby's though.
That theater was dark, smoke filled, and loud.
I have to say that while an armed patron may have been able to reduce the damage, there is no way this evil SOB could be stopped before killing at least a few people.
It was just a very well planned and executed attack by a seriously derranged and evil fuck of a human being.
Even the SWAT team commander said to Channel 9 that they would have had difficulty had James not surrendered to them.

I just hope we don't see any damn copycat psychos try to mimic this in the coming weeks.

[Vexx]

Originally Posted by Mr. DJ

Apparently, Louie Gohmert (Texas Republican...ugh >.<) thinks if everyone was packing...this wouldn't have happened -_-

"Quick guys, pull out your gun in a crowded theater and shoot into the smoke!"

Gohmert is a squeaking idiot... the problem with concealed carry (and I have a permit, btw) is that there is no required training for tactical situations. There's no required training of marksmanship. There's no required... well, you get the idea. There's a background check and, in most states, just a class to take on the legal aspects. Oh, Texas does make you actually shoot it so you know what it sounds like :P

Even worse, the background check system is .... fragmented would be a nice word.

Even if the theater had contained armed citizens - most of them would simply have frozen, mentally unprepared for the onslaught. You have to be semi-paranoid like I am. I'm *always* looking for the exit, gauging the situation, eyeballing the people around me - it runs at almost an unconscious level. Most people are simply clueless about outside their happy bubble. I choose the table chair that faces the entrances, I sit in the part of the plane with the highest survival rate, I watch cars at long distances for erratic behavior. This all takes practice that most people don't assign energy to.

Unfortunately, this Holmes guy was effectively the same as a tornado strike. Out of the blue, everything preparatory was done legally, he had no record. Had shown an interest in micro-RNA effects on tendencies to mental illness (which many people who aren't mentally ill also show interest in). He was a bit of a loner (which again, says nothing - many people are loners, play video games, own guns, etc). And he helpfully warned the police about his apartment -- which I can only conclude he wanted to hear about how "sophisticated" his booby traps were??? Durr?

Apparently, he's basically not talking at all though...

I've been reading about each of the victims... I find it useful to treat each of them with the respect of learning something about them.