2013-01-25, 13:53 | Link #11801 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2012
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Up until 140, I was totally on-board with it. But right now, it's pretty clear that Nishio really wants readers to like Medaka(probably because he does) and want her to live and cheer for her and such.
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2013-01-25, 14:01 | Link #11802 | |||
The Mage of Four Hearts
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Join Date: Mar 2010
Age: 33
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Or you know, some people find her likeable, because they like her, not because there is some objective reasoning it.
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2013-01-25, 14:27 | Link #11803 | ||||
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2012
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One of them is Zenkichi talking about her crazy ideal of helping strangers, and how that makes her unlikeable and might eventually kill her. The other is her mother reflecting on her crazy ideal of self-sacrificial love to the end, and how that makes her unlikeable and might eventually kill her. The end result of all her actions are the same, but the points in question have different roots, which is important and what I was referring to. I guess it also goes to show how Kaisos is right, and she hasn't changed from her past unlikeability. Quote:
The point is that that's an unlikeable motivation. People would be more inclined to believe that Medaka was saving Shiranui for Zenkichi's sake, and that would be more interesting in the grand scheme. The crux here is that Medaka is, like you said, saving her because she loves people, because she wants to be Shiranui's friend. She'd do this for Chougasaki if it were happening with him. She'd do this for any of the people she loves which appeared in the scan. It feels impersonal, and unbelieavable. And when you love so broadly, your motivation becomes generic. Just like a generic Shounen hero who self-sacrifices for everyone(what Medaka is doing). She's not Mary Sueing to the point she's Jesus now like before, but it's clear Nishio has no idea how to write a Medaka which many people can enjoy and relate to emotionally. Regardless, I'm just explaining why certain people find her unlikeable in their interpretation. it's not as if you have to agree with it or anything. Quote:
Whose only purpose in the series was to get told by Medaka. See? People are gonna notice an home-in on Nishio's blatent shenanigans. ~~ I found an interesting theory while lookingon the Naruto Forums thread, you'all(I look at basically every forum, ever). What do you think of this: Quote:
Well? Do you think that Medaka might just be the reason why the other characters are so appealing and likeable?
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Last edited by Wolfenstein; 2013-01-25 at 14:53. |
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2013-01-25, 17:41 | Link #11805 | ||
Romanticist
Join Date: Aug 2009
Age: 33
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For me, the way the story bends over just to make her right and her crazy power levels are as much part of her character as is her skin color, she was born that way, so I don't exactly pay attention to those details. I focus rather on how she rationalizes her own Sue-ish nature. Quote:
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2013-01-25, 21:29 | Link #11806 | |||||
The Mage of Four Hearts
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Join Date: Mar 2010
Age: 33
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And how did this self sacrificial love manifest? By dedicating her life to helping strangers. Quote:
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I also liked the way you added in a vague qualifier like 'many' in order to justify your opinion of why you think Medaka is unlikeable. Quote:
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2013-01-25, 21:37 | Link #11807 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2012
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@Endscape: I find that a character doing the exact same thing that they did before, just changing the motivation, to be an extremely weak form of character development. Especially given all the hype for a supposed change that amounted to very little.
Also, what people consider relatable will always be an arbitrary value, given the inherently subjective nature of it. |
2013-01-25, 22:09 | Link #11808 | ||
The Mage of Four Hearts
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Join Date: Mar 2010
Age: 33
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2013-01-26, 01:16 | Link #11809 |
Lets be reality
Join Date: May 2007
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This is pretty rich since any time Zen gets a smidgen of shit thrown at him by someone on this forum his defense force leaps to his defense. There's one character fanbase reading this manga who quickly shits on one character and leaps to the defense of their "gawd". So hypocritical but I guess that is human nature.
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2013-01-26, 08:52 | Link #11810 | |
The Shermain
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: NY
Age: 44
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2013-01-26, 12:03 | Link #11811 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Somewhere
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Westlo, there are a fair number of people who don't like Zenkichi but don't keep rambling on about how he's the reason the manga is cancelled. As you once said, Sol Falling is generally pretty reasonable even despite the disagreements. I don't think we need you of all people preaching about this.
In regards to Medaka...sure it's tempting to dislike her, I think it's best to look at it from a story perspective and her role within the general story. She's not the most sympathetic but she has a struggle which is like the flipside to our own. She's trying to find the purpose of her life, while most of us struggle just to be able to achieve dreams. |
2013-01-26, 12:53 | Link #11812 | |||||||
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Join Date: May 2012
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And, hence, why she still retains her self-sacrificial love, and her self-sacrificial conviction on always winning. She just hasn't, and probably never will, learn to bend her ways. She's the opposite of Professor Tsurubami, who always bent his ways to become happy. Two very different roots. Quote:
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Can't you see that that's what people find so weak? That's what I was talking about. It's Sueish, it's effortless, and it's a cheap way to write the character differently without actually changing almost any of it's personality, mannerisms, expressions and actions. Quote:
I mean, seriously. I explicitly told you this in my post. There's no reason for you to be thinking otherwise, unless you skipped it. Quote:
It's a fact that many people don't enjoy her character like you do. And it's a fact that many people do. I'm just telling you my reasoning(and many other's) for not enjoying her. Quote:
Cause some people...might think of that as the definition of superfluous. Quote:
My clone or something? Just because people explain why they dislike her, dosen't mean that they are trying to pass it off as objective. There is a difference, and there also is no need to be so defensive about it.
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Last edited by Wolfenstein; 2013-01-26 at 15:16. |
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2013-01-26, 13:57 | Link #11814 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2012
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If that were explored with more than just one simple, meaningless sentence... Until that happens, I'm very unfortunately forced to call her existance superfluous.
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2013-01-26, 15:31 | Link #11815 | ||||||||
The Mage of Four Hearts
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Join Date: Mar 2010
Age: 33
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Yes, the result is the same, but the motivation is different. It's still character development, though of a subtler kind than you may be used to. Quote:
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I like how you ignored my post there. I'm perfectly aware that some people don't like Medaka. My problem is the way you use words like 'many' to insinuate that you're in the majority to justify your opinion. Quote:
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2013-01-26, 15:50 | Link #11816 | ||
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Join Date: Apr 2012
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2013-01-26, 16:11 | Link #11817 | |
The Mage of Four Hearts
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Join Date: Mar 2010
Age: 33
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See what you wrote below, that's just an example.
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2013-01-26, 16:25 | Link #11820 | ||||||
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Join Date: May 2012
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For instance, you're assuming that she completely loved humanity when she was a child without a purpose, and because of that fact, she'd have taken a liking to Zenkichi's suggestion. When in reality, that's not really in the manga. And she only adopted Zenkichi's suggestion because he was the first person to actually offer a goal in life. In turn, Kumagawa gave her his thoughts on the matter, but she found his opinion unsatisfactory because his was a position of negative-affirmation(we have no purpose/goal in life). Basically, her uncompromising love for humanity was born out of her interaction with people, after helping them via Zenkichi's suggestion of a goal. I personally think it's silly to say Medaka at that age already had a uncompromising love of humans, and not supported in the story. That's the manga's stated reason for her ideology, so I'm sticking to it. Sure it's just one interpretation, but I think it's by far the best one. Quite so. Quote:
Though, I'm sure certain people would just call it weak or effortless or just a way for Nishio to shoehorn in development without actually changing the way he writes the charcter. Which makes it hard for people to feel the development. Quote:
Do you think I'm some evil mastermind trying to trick you into believing in my opinion or trying to make your's look bad or something? Here, if it helps any: Any opinion mentioned thus forth is my complete and abject subjective, personal view, and I'm in no way shape or form trying to supress or discredit the opinions and thoughts of others. There. I trust you won't be confused now? Quote:
Here you are, actually stating that I'm trying to objectively prove the truth of my opinion and disprove your's. Quote:
I'm saying that because of the number I have observed for both sides. "Many" is not an affirmation of objective truth. Did you not see me using many for both the people who like Medaka and the people who dislike her? It's just an affirmation of a bi-polar opinion overall. For example, Kumagawa is universally loved, because so little people dislike him. Quote:
I, personally, hate when an author does that to a character. I'm just questioning why you think I'm saying something objectively. It leads me to believe you're insecure of your opinion or something.
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Tags |
action, comedy, harem, nishio, romance, shounen, student council |
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