2011-08-23, 10:02 | Link #23881 | |
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He wanted to make the concept of Umineko so he could go different pathes depending on how good his adverseries (the reader) were in figuring the truth out. That's why he laid out all this plot devices he only used later (or partly never used) like AT said. I still think this soft-writing approach is the only thing that bothered me a little about Umineko. |
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2011-08-23, 12:34 | Link #23883 | |
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What I actually meant was the approach to alter the narrative based on how readers react to the story, which is naturally only present in continuing series. Some mystery novels show this if they were printed in a magazine...but most I read are finished works, so altering them while releasing them is normally not that present. Of course you include many more plot-elements into an idea than you actually use in the end, but a half competent writer knows how to at least write around that stuff being too obviously in your face. What bugs me about Umineko is that you actually notice, without reading any interviews, that he prepared the options to include much more different scenarios and maybe even development by the sheer amount of characters alone. But the fact that he cared too much about more than half of his readers being dumber than shit on a stick apparently drove him into slowing the whole narrative down to Care Bears level. |
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2011-08-23, 12:45 | Link #23884 |
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All this still leaves Sakutarou's presence in episode 6's magic narrative not fully explained.
1) Did Touya make up Sakutarou (as well as the 1998 Ange in episode 4)? 2) Did Touya learn of Sakutarou somehow? 3) Was the part where Sakutarou shows up to fight Kanon/Shannon not actually magic narrative, but meta-narrative? Last edited by Wanderer; 2011-08-23 at 13:09. |
2011-08-23, 14:12 | Link #23886 |
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It's actually an interesting question. There are several possible approaches:
I kinda like the idea of Touya suspecting the author of the Sakutarou books of being Ange, but it requires that she have started writing the series while he was still in the process of writing his own. And that he somehow knew enough about who he was and who she was to care.
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2011-08-23, 15:05 | Link #23887 |
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Didn't Rosa have a company that dedicated itself to making stuffed animals like so, which Maria then took up the fantasy approach to it? It seems an easy scenario, parent makes kid a toy. Kid has wild imagination and gives it a personification, like the rest of her toys, doesn't realize that it was just a chain of product from Rosa's store, ect. Anyone could have assumed she would have given her toys personification after that.
I don't see it as being very challenging for Touhya to learn of Sakutaru under this scenario, all he had to do was remember Rosa, then remember her company, quick search on the internet or something and bam, instant knowledge of Sakutaru. |
2011-08-23, 16:44 | Link #23888 | ||||||
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Of course, if my theory is correct, it actually was Yukari who borrowed Sakutarou from Touya's fiction, not the other way around. Hmm... Quote:
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2011-08-23, 17:28 | Link #23889 | |
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Also if the meta-world icluding the magical apparitions was a part of the narrative, which I assume it wasn't, it would beg the question why it was only included from the second half (or third) of the 2nd message bottle onwards. What if not only the 3rd but also the 2nd had gone under? Was the meta-world in EP1 as well and we just read that one wrong? Do we have to assume that the 3rd included an explanation that was even more different than the meta-world of Turn? It actually doesn't make much sense for Yasu to write two distinctly different narratives...especially if the Witch Hunters and the police said that apart from the order of deaths they basically depicted the same type of events. Wouldn't they suspect one of them to be fake if one depicted a murder mystery with slight occult elements and one the other a crazy ass fantasy story about a witch roaming the island with goat butlers and magical girl stakes?! I just think that it doesn't add up if the magical scenes are in the narrative at all. |
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2011-08-23, 17:46 | Link #23890 | |
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I don't know of too many stories that truly changed their solution or factors due to serialized publication(I suspect that was more common with Japanese fiction than Western fiction if only due to how publishing worked back during the Golden Age though). I wonder if in the darkest corners of his mind, Ryuukishi ever planned on making Gohda important. Because really I liked Gohda. |
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2011-08-23, 18:14 | Link #23891 | |
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2011-08-23, 19:34 | Link #23892 | |
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The thing is, doesn't the observer change after episode 6? But a lot of the same magical characters still appear. Also, the same purgatory sticks are part of Ange's narrative in episode 4, 1998. Is it just a coincidence that Touya projected the same exact characters onto the stakes that Ange did? |
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2011-08-23, 21:16 | Link #23893 | ||
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Sometimes publishers do little contests with ridicilously big prizes when they serialize a big name authors story. Though this is more common with Mystery TV-productions like the rather well known Ayatsuji Yukito, Arisugawa Arisu kara no chousen-jô: Anrakuisu tantei series (roughly: A cinematic challenge by Ayatsuji Yukito and Arisugawa Arisu: The Armchair Detective series). This is a series of films where two 2-hour films are broadcasted, the 2nd one week after the other, and people can send in their solutions...the best solution wins. Those are done in magazines as well sometimes...so authors better have their solution ready before that (and most of the time they do as I've heard ). And yes, I definitely think he had some stuff planned for Gohda. That goat in EP4 was so modelled to become Gohdas family background I think...and he had his own TIP as well. I think he might have become important in the "everybody is locked in one room" scenario...as they still need the servants...but it never came to that. Quote:
And somebody most have taken it, either Eva or Battler...because I doubt that Maria's diary is explosion proof. Though if it was Battler, how did it get to Ange? |
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2011-08-24, 00:33 | Link #23894 | |
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Although whether 1998 is part of Alliance or not, and whether magic narratives are meta or novel, are not exactly the same problem. Though, what I am still leaning towards at the moment is that 1998 is in Alliance and magic narratives are written. |
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2011-08-24, 00:50 | Link #23895 | ||
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Or, if none of the magic scenes ever are part of the original stories, then the magic layer is literally a subordinate interpretive layer of the meta-world, a literal "game board" on which human characters are elevated and magic characters projected down, in which the Game Master presents an interpretation of events based on the fiction and the player attempts to debunk it. Looked at this way, Meta-Beatrice's arrival at the end of ep1 and subsequent challenge in ep2 take on something of a different tenor. Quote:
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2011-08-24, 01:25 | Link #23896 | ||
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Is the love duel a decidedly meta contest? It seemed to me to be a fundamental part of what BATTLER wanted to convey in his story; he was demonstrating how he actually knew Beatrice's (Yasu's) true nature... or something like that. Man, Dawn is really problematic. The whole darned episode might warrant a reread. Quote:
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2011-08-24, 01:49 | Link #23897 | ||
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2011-08-24, 02:05 | Link #23899 | ||
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It's even more obvious that it isn't in the narrative if you consider how Erika is probably supposed to be the arm of the readership who crave for a cruel and logical answer (represented in spirit by Bern). She never even notices the bloody thing happening...she is wondering who might have killed the people in those rooms and if they ever died at all, so she just beheads them all...and later she searches for some stupid excuses like George being Kanon when we (the readers) actually just saw Shannon, Kanon and Beatrice merging to the narration of Zepar and Furfur how they are parts of one soul who must become one to fullfil their true love... I mean come on...if that was in the narrative and the readers in the Umineko universe didn't get it they'd have to be pretty darn dumb. Actually Dawn is not problematic at all, as long as you disregard BATTLERs crazy shennanigans with reviving Beatrice and restoring the lost love...probably all just for Bern so she is terribly, terribly confused and disgusted by all the sugarcoating and rather "eats her guts and dies". Quote:
Let's take an example I made up. Jessica is found dead in a room...and as an explanation I'll give you that Virgilia showed up in front of Jessica after Gaap had warped her into the room andforced her to choose whom of her parents should die. They are watching Krauss and Natsuhi through a magic mirror, because of course nobody with a master key was among them so they couldn't see what was happening in the room just opposite of the one their in, unless the doors were open. At the end, of course, Natsuhi is found dead in the other room. There is a terribly easy explanation to this when you know the solutions and the magic version actually helps...you just have to use it correctly. |
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