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Old 2017-10-12, 15:33   Link #21
Sparda4
Dark Knight
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2016
Age: 19
From the looks of things we all are pretty much on the same page with some different views on some aspects. Games like the Dark Souls series are the "git gud" types and i do agree with the fact that not every game needs to be like that.
I just personally feel that difficulty was a representation of your growth as a player, the harder it got the more you adapted learned and overcame. I guess there is some nostalgia about "the good ol days" (and i'm just 19) but i do feel that gaming turned from "For gamers by gamers" to "more people buy the better".
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Old 2017-10-12, 15:35   Link #22
0cean
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Games today ain't really games. They're interactive B-movies. And it all started around FFVII. From there it was just downhill and difficulty got pretty much removed over the years. Few games made a point to be games again, but since people generally suck at games, they generally disliked these types of games. No, I don't mean Dark Souls. That's for pussies that want to feel like they play a tough game, when they're really not. If it was difficult it wouldn't be popular in today's crowd.

The problem FFVII brought about the entire industry was that it raised expectations of what games are to a level, where the makers need to invest so much money upfront, that they couldn't possibly sustain themselves on the market of gamers. It was always kind of expected of the next generations of games to look way better than the last generation of games, so even without FFVII this would've eventually happened.

But what are gamers. People that clear most of their games. I heard some devs got all upset upon learning that most players never finished their games, because they where too hard, but really, that's the point. It distinguishes normal people from gamers. Just like there is a difference between people that can drive a car - drivers, if you will - there are people that can clear games, gamers. Everyone can watch a movie. There's no word to describe someone that watches movies, because everyone can do it.

And since the industry needed for everyone to pick up their products they needed to stop making games. And here we are. They've stopped making games. At least lots of former game makers did. Now you get hand holding and win buttons and it kind of defeats the point.

Imagine if there was a lift to take you to the top of Mt. Everest. Then there wouldn't be any point in climbing it. The same way easy mode defeats the point of beating a game on hard mode. That's why easy mode used to be stripped down in some way, to make hard mode worthwhile.


So yeah, difficulty is pretty much gone. So are real games. On the bright site, there are tons of amazing Visual Novels out there.
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Old 2017-10-12, 15:51   Link #23
serenade_beta
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It is pretty much impossible to use extremes like "they are gone", so I'm going to go with "rare".
And it doesn't help that idio... casual players today can't really seem to do anything without being hand-held and proceed to complain when they aren't able to do anything.

Damn, I just want to stuff something like Fire Emblem Thracia or Culdcept in their face and force them to finish it...
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Old 2017-10-12, 15:51   Link #24
Kafriel
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I beg to differ.

1. Games are still games, even if they are easier as a whole. Yes, there are games that better suit the interactive movie genre, but they are not that many. Telltales are popular mainly because they are easy to platinum and clock shortly, not thanks to their stories (which are admittedly good, but don't make for much of a game).

2. FFVII and all games like it are HUGE, which excuses long videos and extensive dialogue as merely part of the game and not its focus. Metal Gear is the same. Parasite eve, however, is barely 10 hours long, with more than 2h being cutscenes, so that's where the line is drawn.

3.
Quote:
Imagine if there was a lift to take you to the top of Mt. Everest. Then there wouldn't be any point in climbing it.
Selfies at the top of the mountain.

4. There are still quality games being made, covering a wide variety of gamers. Sports games keep coming out, wrestling games, beat 'em ups, puzzle games - you name it, they're all there. How hard they are does not affect their validity as gaming material.
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Old 2017-10-12, 17:03   Link #25
Sparda4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kafriel View Post

FFVII and all games like it are HUGE, which excuses long videos and extensive dialogue as merely part of the game and not its focus. Metal Gear is the same. Parasite eve,however, is barely 10 hours long, with more than 2h being cutscenes, so that's where the line is drawn.
However Parasite eve didn't hold your hand as much as today's games and that's an issue. Your hand is held 24/7 unless your on the highest possible setting or mod the game (the latter is a degree of choice) so that your not hand held.
And i'd rather earn my story content by doing challanges (lore books cutscenes with no buttons to press ect) or finishing the game from easy to the hardest. And a question to those who have played one of the Devil may cry games or anything on a similar caliber in a totally different genre(racing strategy arcade you name it). Did it feel good to figure out how to beat it on your 2-3 try ?
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Old 2017-10-12, 19:37   Link #26
TheForsaken
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@0cean: With all due respect, that's the most ignorant post I've ever read.
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Old 2017-10-13, 00:44   Link #27
Rising Dragon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 0cean View Post
Games today ain't really games. They're interactive B-movies. And it all started around FFVII. From there it was just downhill and difficulty got pretty much removed over the years. Few games made a point to be games again, but since people generally suck at games, they generally disliked these types of games. No, I don't mean Dark Souls. That's for pussies that want to feel like they play a tough game, when they're really not. If it was difficult it wouldn't be popular in today's crowd.

The problem FFVII brought about the entire industry was that it raised expectations of what games are to a level, where the makers need to invest so much money upfront, that they couldn't possibly sustain themselves on the market of gamers. It was always kind of expected of the next generations of games to look way better than the last generation of games, so even without FFVII this would've eventually happened.

But what are gamers. People that clear most of their games. I heard some devs got all upset upon learning that most players never finished their games, because they where too hard, but really, that's the point. It distinguishes normal people from gamers. Just like there is a difference between people that can drive a car - drivers, if you will - there are people that can clear games, gamers. Everyone can watch a movie. There's no word to describe someone that watches movies, because everyone can do it.

And since the industry needed for everyone to pick up their products they needed to stop making games. And here we are. They've stopped making games. At least lots of former game makers did. Now you get hand holding and win buttons and it kind of defeats the point.

Imagine if there was a lift to take you to the top of Mt. Everest. Then there wouldn't be any point in climbing it. The same way easy mode defeats the point of beating a game on hard mode. That's why easy mode used to be stripped down in some way, to make hard mode worthwhile.


So yeah, difficulty is pretty much gone. So are real games. On the bright site, there are tons of amazing Visual Novels out there.
This post caused me to pull a muscle in my eyes from rolling them too hard.
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Old 2017-10-13, 00:56   Link #28
Dragon_Slayer_X
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I was under the impression that it was a troll post.

If not then Gamers!(?) like that poster are more of an issue than difficulty in games..........
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Old 2017-10-13, 03:53   Link #29
Der Langrisser
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@Ocean: In my almost 28 years at playing video games, I always tended to play on the easiest difficulty, and you know why ?
Because I play video games for fun and escapism, to relax a bit from the difficulty of life, not for some nonsensical "gamers cred". I have played the games of the "good old time" when I was a kid, most of the time the difficulty was just a way to artificially prolong the playtime of the games of those days, which were awfully short. Or they were poor conversion of arcade games, were horrendous difficulty was a necessity to fleece the player from its coins.
I consider myself a gamer, ever since I got my NES in Christmas 1989, and for me everyone who loves to play video games is a gamer.
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Old 2017-10-13, 04:59   Link #30
Kafriel
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sparda4 View Post
However Parasite eve didn't hold your hand as much as today's games and that's an issue. Your hand is held 24/7 unless your on the highest possible setting or mod the game (the latter is a degree of choice) so that your not hand held.
And i'd rather earn my story content by doing challenges (lore books cutscenes with no buttons to press ect) or finishing the game from easy to the hardest. And a question to those who have played one of the Devil may cry games or anything on a similar caliber in a totally different genre (racing strategy arcade you name it). Did it feel good to figure out how to beat it on your 2-3 try ?
The point is, Parasite Eve was developed with the intention of making it a "movie in a game", which is still vastly different from games with enough plot to warrant a small movie made out of cutscenes, because those games have vastly more hours of action to them.

As for your question, I play stylish slashers in normal, then easy (to gear up and speed through), then hard->hardest->secret 1-2-3-n, until it stops being too hard and just cheat-level absurd. It is a lot of fun and, most importantly, adds to a game's replayability. The level of satisfaction you get after finishing a game like that? I mostly think it was money well spent, because it lasted long enough.
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Old 2017-10-14, 02:45   Link #31
Key Board
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all I want is for people stop comparing everything to Dark Souls
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Old 2017-10-14, 03:26   Link #32
Sparda4
Dark Knight
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2016
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Not everything is Dark Souls but the casual gamers would call it the hardest game ever until they learn from their mistakes think outside the box on how to defeat the challenge and adapt. That's how even the hardest difficulty in general is overcome. But sadly the part of "Adapt and Overcome" is very rare today.
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Old 2017-10-14, 05:08   Link #33
Key Board
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No, my point is that everything is compared to Dark Souls
just like how everything is compared to Harry Potter

STOP

I bet when we get another Armored Game, people are going to call it "like Dark Souls but with mechs"

also "gamer" is an invented brand by corporations. The Xbox generation bought into it.
This is also the generation when"gamers" started acting like man-children online
In the 80/90s we didn't have a "gamer" identity. We had Nintendo vs Sega tribal wars.
It was petty, but it honestly it was better than the mess we have today with "gamer" culture

I would never call myself a "gamer"
It's goddamn embarasssing
I would just say that playing games is one of my hobbies
screw the "gamer" identity

Last edited by Key Board; 2017-10-14 at 05:19.
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Old 2017-10-14, 06:11   Link #34
Kafriel
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It is rather necessary, though. Fighting games have evolved to the point where people who are not invested in them will have literally 0% chance of winning a single fight against someone who has taken the time to learn the game mechanics and a few combos. You can't button mash your way to victory anymore. RPGs are at least 30 hours long, there are people who wouldn't play for more than 3 hours a week, so they'd have to stretch a single story two months over - you can't expect that kind of player to be as pleased with a game as someone who plays 2h a day. THAT is what gamers do, they buy, play and appreciate games.

Modern day standards have just made it much easier to define those who want to play from those who just wanted in on the latest trend but can't really be bothered playing.
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Old 2017-10-14, 09:52   Link #35
felix
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@Kafriel if "gamer" has become like art/literary/movie critic or some sort of fashion snob only for games then I have to completely agree with Key Board, it's a fucking embarrassment! Is it so much to ask to not have strings attached to literally every little term.
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Old 2017-10-14, 13:49   Link #36
Kafriel
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Quote:
Is it so much to ask to not have strings attached to literally every little term.
Yes, it is. I got a lot of friends, some play lots of games, some barely even bother. They all play games, but if I were to buy a game as a present to them, I'd never choose the same game for both sorts; one of the two would end up barely playing it at all, or worse, get offended I thought they could like that kind of game.

This could fall in any gaming genre: racing, RPGs, MMOs, MOBAs, platformers, action games, fighting games, you name it. So yeah, I'd like to know if people want to let a game play itself, if they prefer one that is fast to play through, or if they want a challenge to keep them busy whenever they have free time. All of these people would be playing games, but it's something entirely different in each of those cases.

I'm not embarrassed to call myself a gamer, I've been playing video games since I was 5 years old, and I invest a lot of my time doing it. I know that not everyone can spend 2-3 hours talking about games, I know many are not as interested as I am. That separates me from them, in the same way the fact that I read xianxia separates me from those who don't - we can't even talk about it.
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Old 2017-10-14, 14:34   Link #37
Kyero Fox
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Bosses hitting 80% of your health isn't "Difficulty" its Artificial Difficulty.
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Old 2017-10-14, 15:05   Link #38
Eisdrache
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Quote:
Originally Posted by felix View Post
@Kafriel if "gamer" has become like art/literary/movie critic or some sort of fashion snob only for games then I have to completely agree with Key Board, it's a fucking embarrassment! Is it so much to ask to not have strings attached to literally every little term.
What. I thought gamer was a person who regularly plays games. Nothing more nothing less. I see zero reason to be embarrassed of that.
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Old 2017-10-14, 16:24   Link #39
Key Board
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no, "gamer" has turned into a identity
It has turned into something cultural
as said, this in part, largely started during the xbox generation, and corporate branding had a hand in this

it's no longer "someone who just likes to play a lot of games"

the closest equivalent that I can think of is "soccer fan"
It's not just someone who likes soccer
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Old 2017-10-14, 20:04   Link #40
Eisdrache
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At the very base line a gamer is someone who plays games. Full stop. Any other connotations are just side dishes. I have a rather vague idea what kind of 'corporate branding' you're seeing here but it seems you're placing too much value on something that isn't part of the definition.
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