[Game] Umineko no Naku Koro ni Chiru - Ep. 5 End of the golden witch

[luckyssol]

Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon

Off the current topic, but about Battler "understanding everything"...

Since him knowing all the answers would logically preclude his POV being used... doesn't that mean that Erika, his new opponent, the anti-witch side, would be the new protagonist?

Just asking.

That's a possibility yes. If episode 6 is from Erika's POV mabye we'll get a backstory on how she became a great detective. This would really help us to understand the story's plot.

[/sarcasm]

[MeoTwister5]

Ep6 better not be Erika's POV or I'll gag all the way.

[Ithekro]

I'd think that we'll be "flipping over the chessboard" to see things from the witch's (or actually Beatrice's) point of view (now Battler's side of things) against Erika. So instead of the protagonist being on the Anti-Fantasy side, the protagonist is on the Anti-Mystery side...however since Battler "understands", one gets the impression that these two sides are false...thus you get a new arrangement: Erika on the Anti-Fantasy side: "The truth be damned", and Battler on the side of Truth...as in finding it, Fantasy or no.

Another possibility goes with the idea of the three edged sword. Three sides. Erika as Anti-Fantasy. Lambdadelta as Anti-Mystery. and Battler as the Truth. (Bern is...well...who can tell what Bern is doing for sure?) Unless there is a fourth, unknown side...the culprit.

Four Player Chess!

[luckyssol]

Originally Posted by Ithekro

I'd think that we'll be "flipping over the chessboard" to see things from the witch's (or actually Beatrice's) point of view (now Battler's side of things) against Erika. So instead of the protagonist being on the Anti-Fantasy side, the protagonist is on the Anti-Mystery side...however since Battler "understands", one gets the impression that these two sides are false...thus you get a new arrangement: Erika on the Anti-Fantasy side: "The truth be damned", and Battler on the side of Truth...as in finding it, Fantasy or no.

Another possibility goes with the idea of the three edged sword. Three sides. Erika as Anti-Fantasy. Lambdadelta as Anti-Mystery. and Battler as the Truth. (Bern is...well...who can tell what Bern is doing for sure?) Unless there is a fourth, unknown side...the culprit.

Four Player Chess!

Three sided battles are never fair because two sides always team up against the remaining side.

My main question about episode 6 is whose thoughts will be allowed to follow? We can't follow Battler's anymore because he knows the truth. Mabye the POV will switch between Ushiromiya family members and the meta-world scenes are just in third person.

[Ithekro]

That is if he knows the truth. It might be more that he's figured out that he's suppose to be looking for the truth rather than sparing over mystery and fantasy.

[Volcanic]

I personally think Battler just knows everything about Beato and her actions, and anything else he needs to be Golden Sorcerer. He might not even know what magic truly is yet, but he can use it- think eating something and not looking at the label, or using a TV you didn't put together yourself. Erika is now considered a witch, (the portrait is hers, after all) but she's still the Anti-Fantasy detective. If you're in the right place, it might be fairly easy to become a witch.

Like Ithekro said, Battler's probably on the line of Mystery and Fantasy now. (Supporting my theory that magic exists, but didn't commit the murders) Now, he needs to find the truth, not just sit around and become Bern, Lamba and Erika's plaything. He knows if he's tortured again, this time it'll be real, not just something Beato did that brought her just as much pain in the end.

[Jan-Poo]

Originally Posted by LyricalAura

Those lines bugged me too, but for a different reason. According to Erika, she sealed everyone in their rooms, so they shouldn't have been able to leave until morning when she checked the integrity of the seals. In the case of Nanjo, Bernkastel said that after 3am, he didn't leave his room until morning. Why did she use less restrictive red for Kumasawa and Gohda? If Erika's seals were really effective, she should have been able to confine both of them to their rooms too.

Looking back at everything that was said in red about seals...



Based on the red we know that Erika has to have placed at least some seals, but none of it says anything about where she placed them. The only seal whose existence is confirmed in red is the one that Eva placed on the waiting room in the mansion. Not only that, but we never even once saw one of Erika's seals from any point of view, let alone hers. Given that there's no way she had time to place seals on the guesthouse windows, isn't it possible that many of these seals were actually outright lies, whose only purpose was to give Bernkastel a false basis to introduce red truth to the trial?

EDIT: Damn, I missed one. Miss Erika has sealed all of the means of entry. Guess that theory's out for the window seals, at least. However, that still doesn't explain the discrepancy with the internal seals.

the true question that arise reading this is: when Erika placed all those seals?

It is said that the seal method was elaborated by Eva and Erika after dinner. Why? I mean, the gold wasn't discovered yet at that time. And did Eva also think that a murder was going to happen? And why? She didn't give me the impression that she believed the gold could be found. She was actually very upset when battler found it.

And after dinner when Erika had the time to place all the seals? We know that soon after dinner she found out about the epitaph. After that she was so excited that she didn't think about anything else for a while in the guesthouse.

There is only a short time span when we don't know anything about Erika's actions, and that's when everyone except Battler and Rosa left the guesthouse lounge.

That might have been 1 hour or so. However when Battler found Erika again, I don't remember him noticing Erika's hair being soaked.

After that we know every of Erika's movement. She's been with Battler until 23:45.
After that she played a little in the cousin's room. From midnight to 3 AM she's been with Nanjo. from 3 AM until battler's scream she's been inside her room.

[Rias]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

the true question that arise reading this is: when Erika placed all those seals?

It is said that the seal method was elaborated by Eva and Erika after dinner. Why? I mean, the gold wasn't discovered yet at that time. And did Eva also think that a murder was going to happen? And why? She didn't give me the impression that she believed the gold could be found. She was actually very upset when battler found it.

And after dinner when Erika had the time to place all the seals? We know that soon after dinner she found out about the epitaph. After that she was so excited that she didn't think about anything else for a while in the guesthouse.

There is only a short time span when we don't know anything about Erika's actions, and that's when everyone except Battler and Rosa left the guesthouse lounge.

That might have been 1 hour or so. However when Battler found Erika again, I don't remember him noticing Erika's hair being soaked.

After that we know every of Erika's movement. She's been with Battler until 23:45.
After that she played a little in the cousin's room. From midnight to 3 AM she's been with Nanjo. from 3 AM until battler's scream she's been inside her room.

Possibilities:
1. It's raining, so "hair is soaked" is natural and doesn't need to be elaborated.
2. Bern-Battler is part of the "team". No need to disclose details that would put Erika in a disadvantage.
3. Minor detail that Battler didn't notice. Kind of unlikely as Bern is controlling Battler at that time.

[Jan-Poo]

Number 2 or 3, maybe. But number 1 is impossible since they used umbrella to get outside.

However Erika's methods to place all the seals (wearing a swimsuit) prevents the use of an umbrella since it wouldn't have been practical (especially if she climbed to the second floor). Even if the swimsuit removed the problem of her dress not being soaked, there's still the problem of her hairs, which are pretty long and couldn't dry that fast in October with all that humidity in the air.

But I guess you could still imagine she had a bathing cap...

[desirebluesky]

Originally Posted by Ssol

There is no red statement that states that there are no more than 17 people (or 18 for episode 5) for the whole duration of the game, that's what's bugging me. Erika's arrival in episode 5 proves that ninjas are sneaking on this damn island.

You know there's one thing that bugs me but nobody seems to notice that. In EP 4, we see Battler talk to a woman he:
-has never seen before
-looks like the portrait
-recognizes as "beatrice"
-in a clearly non-magical scene.
If we don't doubt the head count, the only explanation would be Kashnon... but wait, isn't there a scene in EP5 where everyone alive is in the same room? Kanon and Shanon included? (along with Erika and Battler, so we have a genuine POV) Or am i missing something?
And the game ends at October 5/6, so they have one more day to go before her usual midnight appearence.

If I'm right, who the hell was that?
Because, people seem to be either forgeting about it or have figured it out... (and I'm the only person who didn't )

And why do i get the feeling that I'm writing something incredibly stupid.



Btw, about the yakusoku scene, the first thing i thought was that Battler understood everything about Beato's game and purpose, not the murders. So it's not really that obvious.
Guess we can only wait for EP6 and see.

[Jan-Poo]

Well everyone assume's that the Beatrice Battler is seeing on ep4 is someone in disguise. Since the visual conditions aren't good at all (heavy rain, it's far, it's dark), it is possible that Battler doesn't see her well. However only a few people among the 16 could pull such a trick realistically speaking.

There doesn't seem to be any other way to explain this.

[Honoakari]

A small question: Considering the events of Ep5 (and the absence of MARIA and/or Sakutarou), can Mariage Sorciere be viewed as disbanded? An alliance doesn't have a lot of value if there is only one member in it.

[Workworkwork]

Originally Posted by desirebluesky

You know there's one thing that bugs me but nobody seems to notice that. In EP 4, we see Battler talk to a woman he:
-has never seen before
-looks like the portrait
-recognizes as "beatrice"
-in a clearly non-magical scene.
If we don't doubt the head count, the only explanation would be Kashnon... but wait, isn't there a scene in EP5 where everyone alive is in the same room? Kanon and Shanon included? (along with Erika and Battler, so we have a genuine POV) Or am i missing something?
And the game ends at October 5/6, so they have one more day to go before her usual midnight appearence.

If I'm right, who the hell was that?
Because, people seem to be either forgeting about it or have figured it out... (and I'm the only person who didn't )

And why do i get the feeling that I'm writing something incredibly stupid.



Btw, about the yakusoku scene, the first thing i thought was that Battler understood everything about Beato's game and purpose, not the murders. So it's not really that obvious.
Guess we can only wait for EP6 and see.

Spoiler:

Someone disguised as Kumasawa? I think it was mentioned it was "Remarkable" that she's been alive for so long, and look what happened to the other guy who was talked about like that...

Hmm, actually, Kumasawa always lives to just about the eighth or so twilight, right? The only time she didn't(EP3), everything became sloppy. Perhaps she's the painter and staker?

Originally Posted by D0rYn

A small question: Considering the events of Ep5 (and the absence of MARIA and/or Sakutarou), can Mariage Sorciere be viewed as disbanded? An alliance doesn't have a lot of value if there is only one member in it.

Spoiler:

MARIA and Sakutarou are in... Somewhere-land. Heaven, maybe? And Beato is... Yeah, an alliance doesn't have a lot of value if there are no members in it to begin with.

[desirebluesky]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

Well everyone assume's that the Beatrice Battler is seeing on ep4 is someone in disguise. Since the visual conditions aren't good at all (heavy rain, it's far, it's dark), it is possible that Battler doesn't see her well. However only a few people among the 16 could pull such a trick realistically speaking.

There doesn't seem to be any other way to explain this.

Yeah, but the scene goes like this:

......What I saw there, ........., was a woman I had never seen before.
No, it's not true that I never saw her before.
......I saw her once today.
Yes, in the portrait inside the mansion......
The clothes were different, ......but that face was just like the witch of the portrait......
Aaah, who am I kidding...I already know who this person is...!!

makes it sound like Battler was pretty sure who he saw there.
Also, if someone wanted to make Battler think she's Beatrice, why put on normal clothes? She should've went in the dress instead. ...unless we assume it's a plan made on the spot and so the dress was unavaiable. But still, if he couldn't guess from clothes, he probably recognized the face.
To be honest, disguise in this scene sounds kinda like small bombs to me, but i probably just have a hard time swallowing it.

Originally Posted by Workworkwork

Spoiler:

Someone disguised as Kumasawa? I think it was mentioned it was "Remarkable" that she's been alive for so long, and look what happened to the other guy who was talked about like that...

To be honest, I don't get a word of what you're saying. You mean Kumasawa disguised herself as Beatrice?

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

But I guess you could still imagine she had a bathing cap...

You usually get your hair wet even in a bathing cap.
You know, it's a typhoon, they probably still get wet despite the umbrellas. I wouldn't be suprised if i was Battler.

[Renall]

Originally Posted by D0rYn

A small question: Considering the events of Ep5 (and the absence of MARIA and/or Sakutarou), can Mariage Sorciere be viewed as disbanded? An alliance doesn't have a lot of value if there is only one member in it.

Well, you could argue Virgilia and Battler as members in spirit. But I get the impression the Mariage Sorciere is a real thing that existed for Maria and her "Beatrice" prior to 1986, so it may actually be important to know who is "really" a member. But Lord knows if we'll ever see 1998-Ange or hear about that stuff again.

[Escargotage]

Kay kay kay, back with another question.

This scene after what I'm assuming is Bern saying that Natsuhi was in bed with Kinzo... the black & white scene, is this describing the murders/Natushi's motives or... what?

[luckyssol]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

Well everyone assume's that the Beatrice Battler is seeing on ep4 is someone in disguise. Since the visual conditions aren't good at all (heavy rain, it's far, it's dark), it is possible that Battler doesn't see her well. However only a few people among the 16 could pull such a trick realistically speaking.

There doesn't seem to be any other way to explain this.

Actually, that theory is dead due to Knox's 10th rule:
A disguise as another person without any clues of it is prohibited.

Which person was hinted at potentially disguising themselves as Beatrice?

Originally Posted by D0rYn

A small question: Considering the events of Ep5 (and the absence of MARIA and/or Sakutarou), can Mariage Sorciere be viewed as disbanded? An alliance doesn't have a lot of value if there is only one member in it.

It seems as though that is the case. In episodes 1, 2, and 4 Maria would last until the very end because she was protected by the Mariage Sorciere alliance. In episode 3 she died early only because Eva-Beatrice took over. Since she dies in the first twilight in episode 5 there must not have been any alliance to protect her.

Originally Posted by Escargotage

Kay kay kay, back with another question.

This scene after what I'm assuming is Bern saying that Natsuhi was in bed with Kinzo... the black & white scene, is this describing the murders/Natushi's motives or... what?

Bern knew that Kinzo was dead from the beginning. Everything she did was done to make up false evidence and she didn't care how much Natsuhi would be humiliated.

[Workworkwork]

Originally Posted by desirebluesky

To be honest, I don't get a word of what you're saying. You mean Kumasawa disguised herself as Beatrice?

Nah, that's not it. In fact, I was thinking the exact opposite in terms of disguise.

Spoiler:

Kumasawa's already dead like Kinzo. Someone(Namely Human!Beato) dresses up as her in every game and wanders around staking people and painting magic circles everywhere. There was already a corpse prepared in the garden shed, when she killed Gohda, hung him and the corpse, and slipped out somehow. Maybe she could open the side window enough to slip through?

EDIT:

Spoiler:

There are some clues to this, such as her being late to the murders, surviving(Or at least not having her body appearing) until the final stakings, and her being "Virgilia"

[Jan-Poo]

Which person was hinted at potentially disguising themselves as Beatrice?

The definition of "Hint" isn't clear. What can be considered a hint? A hint is not something manifest, you can't expect something like: hey person X disguised as Beatrice. That isn't a "hint".

If that Beatrice is Jessica, the fact they look similar could be a hint. Or maybe not. We lack a definition of what is it necessary for something to qualify as hint.

If you hadn't see the ura tea party and I asked you what kind of hint can prove Battler isn't the detective of ep5, would you really think about that scene? Personally I wouldn't be sure at all.

[Kitsu]

If that Beatrice is Jessica, the fact they look similar could be a hint. Or maybe not. We lack a definition of what is it necessary for something to qualify as hint.

Or that she already dressed up as a witch.