AnimeSuki Forums

Golden Bug-Hunter · 2013-03-20, 01:03

Well I mean honestly,

Spoiler:

Of course, there are still things that I haven't figured out even after getting this far.

The biggest one is...

Spoiler:

magnum12 · 2013-03-20, 19:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Golden Bug-Hunter

Spoiler:

Not exactly what I meant. I'll reword my thoughts regarding that top one.

Spoiler for spoiler for 8th novel:

Regarding the second one.

Spoiler for theory on 3rd novel:

Come to think of it, I suspect that

Spoiler for spoiler for the 7th novel:

was actually foreshadowed as early as the 3rd novel.

Spoiler for theory for 3rd novel:

And now some theories regarding Bernkastel. Note that I use the mangas as my evidence.

Spoiler for theories about Bernkastel:

Drifloon · 2013-03-22, 06:27

Not been following the current discussion, but hopefully no one minds me bringing something else up. I've been rereading the series lately and the meta-narrative of EP4 really confuses me. I can't see how Ange's role in it can possibly have any meaning to anything, yet so much time is spent on Meta-Ange that I can't help but feel that Ryukishi must have written it for a reason.

I mean, I totally understand the point of all the scenes with Ange in 1998, as well as the ones covering her time at St. Lucia; they're both hugely important to the themes of the series, they both make perfect sense on a narrative level, and it's clear why they're there. But the parts with Ange in the meta-world don't make any sense to me. What's the point of the whole story about Ange coming to bring Battler back from the meta-world, and the conflict with her being deceived by Bern and then Lambda trying to get her on her side (which is never mentioned again despite the dramatic build-up and super tense music seeming to imply that it's a hugely important scene), and her realising that she isn't Ange but "ANGE Beatrice" and then not really doing much in the meta-world again until she randomly dies? I really don't get what Ryukishi was trying to say with this subplot; it can't possibly mean anything in terms of Prime, which is fine, but it also doesn't seem to serve to illustrate any thematic point either (aside from possibly the death scene I guess...but the whole thing with Bern and Lambda fighting over her still doesn't seem relevant). It feels so disconnected from everything else. How do you guys view these scenes?

cj_iwakura · 2013-03-22, 07:13

I agree. Ange had a lot of potential, but she felt largely wasted. She had some amazing scenes and a great backstory, but it mostly went nowhere, especially the backstory with her and her bodyguard. Was he meant to betray her, be her lover, both, what? We'll never know.

Renall · 2013-03-22, 08:13

It doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me either. The only thing that really reconciles it is if there were other plans for the meta-world that got scrapped somewhere in the writing of Alliance or the transition into Chiru. The conflict that Meta-Ange believes exists does not exist at all anywhere else in the stories. While it kind of makes sense that Bern would pull an Ange of the future into the story, if we take Meta-Ange as somehow representative of an "actual" or "Prime" Ange, it doesn't make any sense that she'd believe that she can actually do anything to "save" her brother as such.

I mean, she already clearly realizes in the St. Lucia backstory that her family can't come back. Even if the Meta-Ange bits are read as some kind of faint hope of someone returning, they couldn't possibly return through any acts that Ange herself can actually take. And the whole idea of "well they might return to an Ange that isn't you" only makes sense in the context of Prime-Ange realizing that the family could be "saved" in a story but that this would not actually save anyone in her world. Which is obvious. I mean, Ange's not that dumb.

Regarding the other point, Amakusa was kind of like... what was his deal, anyway? Seriously he has essentially no purpose whatsoever in Chiru. He's basically a confused question dispenser for parts of Dawn and barely matters at all in Twilight.

For something that was such a huge chunk of Alliance, I just can't help but think the Ange stuff wasn't going to become what it eventually became and initially meant to set up something else that didn't get followed through on. Same thing with the Maria stuff. The Beatrice-Maria-Rosa dynamic is set up pretty strongly as a major thematic issue, but then Maria scarcely matters in any way until Requiem. And the themes about the Black Witch don't really follow through there either.

Wanderer · 2013-03-22, 08:53

I more or less see meta-Ange, at least as far as EP4 is concerned, as the concept of Ange as Touya sees her.

EP4 meta-Ange is all about EP8, IMHO.

Touya in 1998 became aware of Ange when she tried to contact him, and this was represented by Ange's introduction in EP3 and presence in EP4. It roused the "Battler" aspect that was lying within Touya. Then Ange's disappearance from public knowledge was metaphorically represented by her "hamburger" death at the end of EP4, which really roused Battler. From Ange's disappearance, "Battler" within Touya got a wake up call about how his fight with Beatrice really mattered, because he realized he may have lost his chance to contact Ange for the rest of his life.

As for Bern and Lambda, I see them as concepts before I see them as personalities. Bern's "tempting" Ange is a matter of Ange vainly hoping for something impossible. It's actually rooted in us humans ourselves to do so, and that natural temptation is merely projected and personified as Bern. Since that's Bern's role, Bern's motive is simply made to fit after the fact. On the other hand, it still fits. Bern wanted Battler to destroy Beatrice, and what better way to get Battler serious about that than to have his sister at stake?

As for being ANGE instead of Ange, I think it might have to do with the fact that she's a concept of Touya's rather than a real person, and the concept itself is showing some self-awareness. On the other hand, I also think it might have to do with Yukari becoming an author in the future. It's like being a witch means having the power to change perspectives, but not facts.

Just my thoughts...

Drifloon · 2013-03-22, 14:36

Huh, that's an interesting way to look at it. But still, what's up with Lambda's offer to let Ange stay with Battler forever by maintaining an eternal tie? That particular scene's stuck in my mind right now since I read it today.

GreyZone · 2013-03-22, 15:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drifloon

Huh, that's an interesting way to look at it. But still, what's up with Lambda's offer to let Ange stay with Battler forever by maintaining an eternal tie? That particular scene's stuck in my mind right now since I read it today.

Possibly it represents the temptation of Tohya to stay in these fantasies forever and forget reality.

AuraTwilight · 2013-03-22, 16:48

I always imagined that Lambdadelta represented for Ange the same temptation it meant for Beatrice: To embrace her role as an 'Endless Witch.' Meta-World context aside, staying with Battler forever means contributing to the roll of Forgeries.

jjblue1 · 2013-03-22, 18:39

Personally I would have liked Meta-Ange more if she had kept the characterization she had in Ep 4.
I mean at the end of Ep 4 she:
tried to keep her mind oper to other possibilities than the Eva culprit theory
acknowledged that if she had acted differently with Eva they could have had a better life
was willing to respect other people's beliefs
is willing to give up on the chance to stay forever with her brother
is willing to face the fact his family is dead.

In Ep 8 all this goes forgotten and she's all: Eva killed everyone and I want to stay here and I want the truth and everyone is mean because they don't give me what I want and I've not the patience to listen to your insane ranting big bro, who cares about what you believe, give me the truth and let me stay here.

Okay, so this is a slightly exaggerated version but you get the picture.
I would have preferred for her to quietly listen to Battler and then say: my bro has gotten insane if he believes that's what had happened but let's let him with his belief than to keep stomping foots and believing in Bern over his brother when Bern had turned her into an hamburger twice and enjoyed doing it not mentioning she had tried to marry her bro to Erika after trapping him in a logic error or how she had accused Natsuhi for the LOL of it.
Really the sort of person in which you want to believe.

I've been wondering about Bern and Lambda though.

Bern is the one who grant 'miracles' only when they've a chance of happening, tell her that basically there's no chance but lead her around in a dangerous/fatal way (she encouraged her to jump of a building).

Lambda promised her to let her stay forever with her brother, provided she'll help her fight against Bern and never allow Battler or Beato to win.

If you try to apply all of the above to the real world Bern represents a self destructing chase toward something that can't be reached.

Lambda represents the idea of continuing to be with a Battler within her (the real Ange won't be with Battler, just MetaAnge) provided she'll gave up on discovering the truth (solving Beato's mystery).

haguruma · 2013-03-23, 08:47

I had an interesting thought about Ange, especially EP4 and EP8 Ange when rereading several scenes and comparing them to the manga. My idea right now is that technically Ange is a sympathetic Erika.

She is basically pushed towards the same goal as Erika and has similar doubts concerning love. While Erika doesn't care who the culprit is, Ange has her mind set towards one certain individual, but looking at the similarities in how they approach Beato and Battler's game it becomes clear that their idea of being able to gain something by solving it in their way is fueled by similar desperation. This also explains why it was Erika who fought alongside Ange as long as she was heading towards destroying the illusion.

I think that is also one of the things that makes Erika necessary, because it mirrors in a darker way what Ange was trying to achieve in EP4. In that sense Meta-Anges journey does not only show Touya's struggle but also that of Ange in 1998.
Her acceptance of Bern's offer showed her wish to wrench the solution out of the story that she wanted to see, in the desperate hope that it would lead her towards something more than she has now.
Lambda's offer showed her struggle when she went deeper, because it meant facing the danger of actually being left with nothing at all.
Her final resolve showed her acceptance of letting go of her hope for her brother to return just like that, which tortured her so much it was as hard as dying. She accepted continuing to live with happy memories, even if it killed the Ange that lived with her brother in an illusion.

jjblue1 · 2013-03-23, 17:21

Interesting info from Ep 8 chap 6.

It was Beato who tattled out to the relatives that Kinzo was dead, so as to set them up against Natsuhi. It make me think she took them all as accomplices... only each couple didn't know about the other being Beato's accomplice.
It's again confirmed that Beato could have entered in Natsuhi's room regardless of the scorpion charm but, due to the setting, decided not to and merely wanted to scare her by painting her door (Lol she wore gloves and smeared all her door with red paint).

Wanderer already told us that the message in Ep 1 existed and that Natsuhi's gun was without bullets though it had powder inside so that it would make a discharged sound and have smoke coming out of it.

The discussion between Beato and Natsuhi is also a lot less forgiving in the beginning.
Beato confessed she had a lot of fun bullying Natsuhi but in the end she said that since she remembered her sin and she will have to carry its weight forever in the end things are settled and only after this she said she understand what Kinzo did was wrong and that she can symphatize with Natsuhi's circumstances.

On a corner of Natsuhi's door she even wrote an apology.

I think I've already described how Natsuhi and Beato hid in the wardrobe to escape Ange and Eva (in the manga they play hide and seek instead than quiz time) and that to lead them out Eva pretended trying to kill Ange, the whole thing a copy of how Hideyoshi was 'killed' in Ep 5 (even Beato observed this had already happened).

And we get an interesting bit about Rudolf tending to hide in the darkest corners of the house with a woman (maybe a servant?).

Again, Ep 8 manga version is way better than the novel as far as I'm involved...

Drifloon · 2013-03-24, 03:43

Hm, Beatrice and Natsuhi's discussion is slightly less heartwarming it sounds like. That's a shame.

All the adults except Krauss/Natsuhi being accomplices in EP1 was another thing I was pretty cetain about.

jjblue1 · 2013-03-24, 08:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drifloon

Hm, Beatrice and Natsuhi's discussion is slightly less heartwarming it sounds like. That's a shame.

All the adults except Krauss/Natsuhi being accomplices in EP1 was another thing I was pretty cetain about.

Oh no, it gets heartwarming but it doesn't start so forgiving and 'oh, don't worry no big deal' as in the novel. Beato let's Natsuhi gets she was rather angry and bitter at her and wanted revenge on her... but then she looks like she's coming to terms with what Natsuhi had done to her. In short, she had her fun but Natsuhi admitted she hurt her and she's feeling guilty and she had her reasons so... she too can let it go.

If you ask me it's more touching, expecially for the moments in which you see how Beato would like for Natsuhi to also be her mom.

It's more... real as far as I'm involved. To have Beato wash it all away so effortlessly in the novel... it just didn't feel fitting, it reduced the whole of Yasu's drama and the pain she'd been put through.
It felt as if there was a huge gap between the Yasu of Ep 5, who's basically tormenting Natsuhi rather horribly, and the Beato of Ep 8 who's acting mature and comforting Natsuhi and shifting the blame on Kinzo.

I like for Beato to show her bitterness and then... show she's trying to get over it, that despite it she longed to build up a mother/child relation with Natsuhi.

GuestSpeaker · 2013-03-25, 01:08

Quote:

postmortem lividity and rigor mortis

Actually I believe lividity is the colour (or the process of gaining the colour) your body takes on when blood etc drains into the lowest parts of the body at the time of death and settles there (it then sort of clots, which is how you can tell if a body has been moved a while after death). So after a while someone who died on their back will have extensive bluish purple mottling (like a really big bruise) on their backs.

While rigor mortis is the stiffness the body goes through due to no longer producing the energy required to move muscles (they won't relax until more energy is available for the next movement, even if they don't need it yet). This passes once the muscles in the body have begun themselves to break down.

Renall · 2013-03-26, 09:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by jjblue1

It's more... real as far as I'm involved. To have Beato wash it all away so effortlessly in the novel... it just didn't feel fitting, it reduced the whole of Yasu's drama and the pain she'd been put through.

Having looked it back over, I think the biggest problem with everything from basically the start of the party through to the first goat attack is horrifically rushed. So much time is spent on the stupid riddles that the in-between reward scenes are ridiculously short, the battle focuses too long on the goat part, and the Battler/Erika and Beatrice/Ange confrontations are literally shunted offscreen to the point that their resolutions are laughably pointless, because we don't actually see the struggle itself.

At least with the Battler/Erika one we get answers (but barely any reasoning process, which is what we paid to see!). The Ange/Beatrice thing is basically "Man, we just had a pretty awesome fight." "Yeah, I'd hate to be anybody who missed that!" There's no investment in the stakes like in any of the previous red/blue fights because it's barely clear what anybody is doing, why it had to happen the way it did, or how any of this is going to help anybody (and it basically doesn't). The first goat battle is better for the Will and Dlanor action, but it shouldn't have been the primary focus of the chapters (or it should've still been there, but the other parts be as well-developed).

The riddle game structure is just really bad and in getting away from it the manga (which reduces the riddles to one sentence) improved the narrative flow dramatically and opened up more space for elaboration on the actually interesting parts (like Beatrice/Natsuhi, Rudolf/Kyrie, etc.). Although I haven't seen it get to the part with the fights in it, so I suppose we'll see.

Drifloon · 2013-03-26, 10:20

I dunno, the riddle game part is one of my favourite things in the series...It had a really great relaxing atmosphere about it that was kind of beautiful, I thought. The 'reward scenes' were pretty good really, Rudolf/Kyrie's was the only one that I thought was pretty blah (mostly because that was just a really useless and contrived subplot in the first place). I mean, I know not much is HAPPENING throughout the riddle parts, but that's sort of the point; it creates the feeling of Ange just having fun with her family, the tension gone, everyone finally able to act like a normal family for once. Of course I don't know how the manga does it, so it may well be better, but I wouldn't say the original version was bad or anything.

That said, I totally agree that everything AFTER that part is rushed. The goat battles are really not good at all; they could have been epic but they're invariably disappointing and repetitive, and don't really provide anything to get emotionally or intelectually invested in. Pretty much the only part I really like in the second half of EP8 is the Tohya/Ikuko story, which deserved much more coverage than it got. Oh, and the part with Ange apologising to Eva and Maria in the Golden Land was nice as well I guess.

jjblue1 · 2013-03-26, 19:39

Personally I didn't like much the quiz part.
Honestly I wasn't interested at the moment at playing at a game of riddle and Ange just... didn't seem Ange (little Ange wouldn't have been capable to answer to most of those questions and it's never implied it's teen Ange that answers besides teen Ange had already made clear she 'didn't want to play').

It's much better the parallel that the manga create, with Ange playing hide and seek mirroring her finding back her family that to have Ange figure the answer of usually random questions unrelated to her situation (apart the last one which was also kept in the manga...).

I agree on the bonus scenes being too short and not emotional enough on topics that were supposed to be emotional. Kinzo and Genji's friendship was brushed away, Beato was way too mature and understanding of Natsuhi's case, Rudolf mentioning that Asumu wasn't that forgiving as she looked seemed completely out of place and random (how had this relevance to the plot? had Asumu done something? Why should we care? And considering what Rudolf did, really, I don't blame her...) and Kyrie's reaction was a lot less emotional than the one in the manga. She's just... shocked. And Shannon and Kanon declaring they'll have a fight... another thing that felt random. As well as Battler's interaction with Shannon later on.

In short my feelings were that the plot had been sacrificed to focus more on the quizzes. Now... the quizzes weren't bad but I wasn't reading Umineko for those random quizzes so my enjoyement of the quizzes just couldn't match up the disappointment for the plot.

Also the battle with the goats... well, first of all I don't like much to read action scenes. I prefer to see them. Second i would have enjoyed it more if it had given hints or, at least, a little more of a challenge to the guys. They could even keep up with Erika and tons and tons of goats who were capable to eat the gameboard but not them!

Well, the Ange/Beato battle was interesting as it presented Ange's point of view over how Beato was 'starving her to death without even touching her'. I'm not really a fan of logic battles of this kind but, at least, this one was a nice comparison to Ange's situation although I would have preferred if it had been developed more. I mean, Ange in that moment wanted to learn the truth and then die. It would have been interesting if it had gotten developed more.

Also, I stay my case, Ange was a lot cooler in Ep 4 than for most of Ep 8.
They don't even seem the same person. Well, at least the manga depicts much better how Ange is still, inside of herself, a child crying for her family to come back.

Will and Lion's presence felt very much like a bonus. Sure, Will fights and he's cool but that's all. Lion is there to be the optimistic one and to meet Beato (unnecessary, we already saw his meeting with Clair and it was better). The plot wouldn't be damaged by them being scrapped out.

Tohya/Ikuko was good, though it opened up more questions. I mean Ikuko was way too conveniently a very odd person, it leads easily to think there's something behind this but, if there is... well, we'll never know.

haguruma · 2013-03-27, 15:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by jjblue1

It's much better the parallel that the manga create, with Ange playing hide and seek mirroring her finding back her family that to have Ange figure the answer of usually random questions unrelated to her situation (apart the last one which was also kept in the manga...).

Though I have to say that the Chiru manga in general, not so much EP5 and 6, but definitely 7 and 8, is better at depicting certain things that were rather unclear in the novel. It might be part of the medium or part of Ryukishi's high aspirations of what scenes he wants to set, but sometimes the written text could not fully transfer what he might have wanted to tell (going by his words that he will have more elements inserted as the manga proceeds).

I also felt this when continuing to read the EP7 manga, where Claire's stage production is much more like that, an actual show, with backdrops and character entrances. In the novel it was hard to distinguish between a full switch to a new setting like it often happens during the series (e.g. metaworld) or this if it was intended.
Also it would have clearly helped if he had given a little more thought to depiction of mimics and gestures, as the manga paints a way clearer picture of how characters seem to think about their actions. Like it seems very likely that it was the other Fukuin servants who hid the duster and just set Yasu up. A minor element, but important in the general characterization.

Also, going back to the question whether Shannon was a real person (again, I know), I think the manga does imply it in several stages. Like Yasu saying that she wanted to become like her so much, implying that she might even go so far as become her. Several actions, which imply there being a Shannon who is far less perfect than Yasu sees her, like leaving her at the chapel with the other servants, who likely set the whole thing up, and looking at her as if she pities her.

Renall · 2013-03-27, 15:59

Out of curiosity, how much of the additional information and concepts in the manga come directly from Ryukishi? I presume he does have editorial oversight of things and that the manga isn't just making stuff up out of the blue, but how many of these things are actual suggestions he's making and how much of those are things he intended but couldn't properly convey, or things he thought up after the fact?

2013-03-20, 01:03	Link #32041
Golden Bug-Hunter Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2011	Well I mean honestly, Spoiler: What other point of view could you get from Eva's diary except for Eva's? I think we're agreeing with each-other, but I may have worded it badly. Eva told the truth as she witnessed it, and her interpretations. But she misinterpreted some of the things she saw and imagined things happening out of her sight that aren't how things went down at all. Of course, there are still things that I haven't figured out even after getting this far. The biggest one is... Spoiler: What the hell happened with George? How and why did he get shot? Did Rudolph challenge him to some honor duel? Pre-emptive strike in case he tried to avenge his parents? Did he leap to the conclusion that it was kill or be killed and attack Rudolph/Kyrie first? There aren't a whole lot of clues to go with here. I'm kind of extrapolating from all the parallels to the ep4 game in the 'call out for a test of headship' deal that this might be what Battler witnessed from his PoV up until the Beatrice scene (the corpse inspection from the Ep4 tea party can't have happened of course...), but even that doesn't tell us much about George's fate.

2013-03-22, 08:13	Link #32045
Renall BUY MY BOOK!!! Join Date: May 2009	It doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me either. The only thing that really reconciles it is if there were other plans for the meta-world that got scrapped somewhere in the writing of Alliance or the transition into Chiru. The conflict that Meta-Ange believes exists does not exist at all anywhere else in the stories. While it kind of makes sense that Bern would pull an Ange of the future into the story, if we take Meta-Ange as somehow representative of an "actual" or "Prime" Ange, it doesn't make any sense that she'd believe that she can actually do anything to "save" her brother as such. I mean, she already clearly realizes in the St. Lucia backstory that her family can't come back. Even if the Meta-Ange bits are read as some kind of faint hope of someone returning, they couldn't possibly return through any acts that Ange herself can actually take. And the whole idea of "well they might return to an Ange that isn't you" only makes sense in the context of Prime-Ange realizing that the family could be "saved" in a story but that this would not actually save anyone in her world. Which is obvious. I mean, Ange's not that dumb. Regarding the other point, Amakusa was kind of like... what was his deal, anyway? Seriously he has essentially no purpose whatsoever in Chiru. He's basically a confused question dispenser for parts of Dawn and barely matters at all in Twilight. For something that was such a huge chunk of Alliance, I just can't help but think the Ange stuff wasn't going to become what it eventually became and initially meant to set up something else that didn't get followed through on. Same thing with the Maria stuff. The Beatrice-Maria-Rosa dynamic is set up pretty strongly as a major thematic issue, but then Maria scarcely matters in any way until Requiem. And the themes about the Black Witch don't really follow through there either. __________________ Redaction of the Golden Witch I submit that a murder was committed in 1996. This murder was a "copycat" crime inspired by our tales of 1986. This story is a redacted confession. Blog (VN DL) - YouTube Playlists Battler Solves The Logic Error

2013-03-22, 16:48	Link #32049
AuraTwilight The True Culprit Join Date: Oct 2010 Location: The Golden Land	I always imagined that Lambdadelta represented for Ange the same temptation it meant for Beatrice: To embrace her role as an 'Endless Witch.' Meta-World context aside, staying with Battler forever means contributing to the roll of Forgeries. __________________ When the Silent Spirits Cry: An Umineko/Silent Hill crossover fanfiction http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost.php?p=4565173&postcount=531

2013-03-27, 15:59	Link #32060
Renall BUY MY BOOK!!! Join Date: May 2009	Out of curiosity, how much of the additional information and concepts in the manga come directly from Ryukishi? I presume he does have editorial oversight of things and that the manga isn't just making stuff up out of the blue, but how many of these things are actual suggestions he's making and how much of those are things he intended but couldn't properly convey, or things he thought up after the fact? __________________ Redaction of the Golden Witch I submit that a murder was committed in 1996. This murder was a "copycat" crime inspired by our tales of 1986. This story is a redacted confession. Blog (VN DL) - YouTube Playlists Battler Solves The Logic Error

2013-03-22, 06:27	Link #32043
Drifloon Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2011	Not been following the current discussion, but hopefully no one minds me bringing something else up. I've been rereading the series lately and the meta-narrative of EP4 really confuses me. I can't see how Ange's role in it can possibly have any meaning to anything, yet so much time is spent on Meta-Ange that I can't help but feel that Ryukishi must have written it for a reason. I mean, I totally understand the point of all the scenes with Ange in 1998, as well as the ones covering her time at St. Lucia; they're both hugely important to the themes of the series, they both make perfect sense on a narrative level, and it's clear why they're there. But the parts with Ange in the meta-world don't make any sense to me. What's the point of the whole story about Ange coming to bring Battler back from the meta-world, and the conflict with her being deceived by Bern and then Lambda trying to get her on her side (which is never mentioned again despite the dramatic build-up and super tense music seeming to imply that it's a hugely important scene), and her realising that she isn't Ange but "ANGE Beatrice" and then not really doing much in the meta-world again until she randomly dies? I really don't get what Ryukishi was trying to say with this subplot; it can't possibly mean anything in terms of Prime, which is fine, but it also doesn't seem to serve to illustrate any thematic point either (aside from possibly the death scene I guess...but the whole thing with Bern and Lambda fighting over her still doesn't seem relevant). It feels so disconnected from everything else. How do you guys view these scenes?

2013-03-22, 07:13	Link #32044
cj_iwakura The Rhythm Rogue Join Date: Mar 2013 Location: Coral Springs, FL	I agree. Ange had a lot of potential, but she felt largely wasted. She had some amazing scenes and a great backstory, but it mostly went nowhere, especially the backstory with her and her bodyguard. Was he meant to betray her, be her lover, both, what? We'll never know.

2013-03-22, 08:53	Link #32046
Wanderer Goat Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Gnawing away at Rokkenjima	I more or less see meta-Ange, at least as far as EP4 is concerned, as the concept of Ange as Touya sees her. EP4 meta-Ange is all about EP8, IMHO. Touya in 1998 became aware of Ange when she tried to contact him, and this was represented by Ange's introduction in EP3 and presence in EP4. It roused the "Battler" aspect that was lying within Touya. Then Ange's disappearance from public knowledge was metaphorically represented by her "hamburger" death at the end of EP4, which really roused Battler. From Ange's disappearance, "Battler" within Touya got a wake up call about how his fight with Beatrice really mattered, because he realized he may have lost his chance to contact Ange for the rest of his life. As for Bern and Lambda, I see them as concepts before I see them as personalities. Bern's "tempting" Ange is a matter of Ange vainly hoping for something impossible. It's actually rooted in us humans ourselves to do so, and that natural temptation is merely projected and personified as Bern. Since that's Bern's role, Bern's motive is simply made to fit after the fact. On the other hand, it still fits. Bern wanted Battler to destroy Beatrice, and what better way to get Battler serious about that than to have his sister at stake? As for being ANGE instead of Ange, I think it might have to do with the fact that she's a concept of Touya's rather than a real person, and the concept itself is showing some self-awareness. On the other hand, I also think it might have to do with Yukari becoming an author in the future. It's like being a witch means having the power to change perspectives, but not facts. Just my thoughts...

2013-03-22, 14:36	Link #32047
Drifloon Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2011	Huh, that's an interesting way to look at it. But still, what's up with Lambda's offer to let Ange stay with Battler forever by maintaining an eternal tie? That particular scene's stuck in my mind right now since I read it today.

2013-03-22, 18:39	Link #32050
jjblue1 Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2011	Personally I would have liked Meta-Ange more if she had kept the characterization she had in Ep 4. I mean at the end of Ep 4 she: tried to keep her mind oper to other possibilities than the Eva culprit theory acknowledged that if she had acted differently with Eva they could have had a better life was willing to respect other people's beliefs is willing to give up on the chance to stay forever with her brother is willing to face the fact his family is dead. In Ep 8 all this goes forgotten and she's all: Eva killed everyone and I want to stay here and I want the truth and everyone is mean because they don't give me what I want and I've not the patience to listen to your insane ranting big bro, who cares about what you believe, give me the truth and let me stay here. Okay, so this is a slightly exaggerated version but you get the picture. I would have preferred for her to quietly listen to Battler and then say: my bro has gotten insane if he believes that's what had happened but let's let him with his belief than to keep stomping foots and believing in Bern over his brother when Bern had turned her into an hamburger twice and enjoyed doing it not mentioning she had tried to marry her bro to Erika after trapping him in a logic error or how she had accused Natsuhi for the LOL of it. Really the sort of person in which you want to believe. I've been wondering about Bern and Lambda though. Bern is the one who grant 'miracles' only when they've a chance of happening, tell her that basically there's no chance but lead her around in a dangerous/fatal way (she encouraged her to jump of a building). Lambda promised her to let her stay forever with her brother, provided she'll help her fight against Bern and never allow Battler or Beato to win. If you try to apply all of the above to the real world Bern represents a self destructing chase toward something that can't be reached. Lambda represents the idea of continuing to be with a Battler within her (the real Ange won't be with Battler, just MetaAnge) provided she'll gave up on discovering the truth (solving Beato's mystery).

2013-03-23, 08:47	Link #32051
haguruma Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: Germany Age: 39	I had an interesting thought about Ange, especially EP4 and EP8 Ange when rereading several scenes and comparing them to the manga. My idea right now is that technically Ange is a sympathetic Erika. She is basically pushed towards the same goal as Erika and has similar doubts concerning love. While Erika doesn't care who the culprit is, Ange has her mind set towards one certain individual, but looking at the similarities in how they approach Beato and Battler's game it becomes clear that their idea of being able to gain something by solving it in their way is fueled by similar desperation. This also explains why it was Erika who fought alongside Ange as long as she was heading towards destroying the illusion. I think that is also one of the things that makes Erika necessary, because it mirrors in a darker way what Ange was trying to achieve in EP4. In that sense Meta-Anges journey does not only show Touya's struggle but also that of Ange in 1998. Her acceptance of Bern's offer showed her wish to wrench the solution out of the story that she wanted to see, in the desperate hope that it would lead her towards something more than she has now. Lambda's offer showed her struggle when she went deeper, because it meant facing the danger of actually being left with nothing at all. Her final resolve showed her acceptance of letting go of her hope for her brother to return just like that, which tortured her so much it was as hard as dying. She accepted continuing to live with happy memories, even if it killed the Ange that lived with her brother in an illusion.

2013-03-23, 17:21	Link #32052
jjblue1 Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2011	Interesting info from Ep 8 chap 6. It was Beato who tattled out to the relatives that Kinzo was dead, so as to set them up against Natsuhi. It make me think she took them all as accomplices... only each couple didn't know about the other being Beato's accomplice. It's again confirmed that Beato could have entered in Natsuhi's room regardless of the scorpion charm but, due to the setting, decided not to and merely wanted to scare her by painting her door (Lol she wore gloves and smeared all her door with red paint). Wanderer already told us that the message in Ep 1 existed and that Natsuhi's gun was without bullets though it had powder inside so that it would make a discharged sound and have smoke coming out of it. The discussion between Beato and Natsuhi is also a lot less forgiving in the beginning. Beato confessed she had a lot of fun bullying Natsuhi but in the end she said that since she remembered her sin and she will have to carry its weight forever in the end things are settled and only after this she said she understand what Kinzo did was wrong and that she can symphatize with Natsuhi's circumstances. On a corner of Natsuhi's door she even wrote an apology. I think I've already described how Natsuhi and Beato hid in the wardrobe to escape Ange and Eva (in the manga they play hide and seek instead than quiz time) and that to lead them out Eva pretended trying to kill Ange, the whole thing a copy of how Hideyoshi was 'killed' in Ep 5 (even Beato observed this had already happened). And we get an interesting bit about Rudolf tending to hide in the darkest corners of the house with a woman (maybe a servant?). Again, Ep 8 manga version is way better than the novel as far as I'm involved...

2013-03-24, 03:43	Link #32053
Drifloon Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2011	Hm, Beatrice and Natsuhi's discussion is slightly less heartwarming it sounds like. That's a shame. All the adults except Krauss/Natsuhi being accomplices in EP1 was another thing I was pretty cetain about.

2013-03-26, 10:20	Link #32057
Drifloon Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2011	I dunno, the riddle game part is one of my favourite things in the series...It had a really great relaxing atmosphere about it that was kind of beautiful, I thought. The 'reward scenes' were pretty good really, Rudolf/Kyrie's was the only one that I thought was pretty blah (mostly because that was just a really useless and contrived subplot in the first place). I mean, I know not much is HAPPENING throughout the riddle parts, but that's sort of the point; it creates the feeling of Ange just having fun with her family, the tension gone, everyone finally able to act like a normal family for once. Of course I don't know how the manga does it, so it may well be better, but I wouldn't say the original version was bad or anything. That said, I totally agree that everything AFTER that part is rushed. The goat battles are really not good at all; they could have been epic but they're invariably disappointing and repetitive, and don't really provide anything to get emotionally or intelectually invested in. Pretty much the only part I really like in the second half of EP8 is the Tohya/Ikuko story, which deserved much more coverage than it got. Oh, and the part with Ange apologising to Eva and Maria in the Golden Land was nice as well I guess.

2013-03-26, 19:39	Link #32058
jjblue1 Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2011	Personally I didn't like much the quiz part. Honestly I wasn't interested at the moment at playing at a game of riddle and Ange just... didn't seem Ange (little Ange wouldn't have been capable to answer to most of those questions and it's never implied it's teen Ange that answers besides teen Ange had already made clear she 'didn't want to play'). It's much better the parallel that the manga create, with Ange playing hide and seek mirroring her finding back her family that to have Ange figure the answer of usually random questions unrelated to her situation (apart the last one which was also kept in the manga...). I agree on the bonus scenes being too short and not emotional enough on topics that were supposed to be emotional. Kinzo and Genji's friendship was brushed away, Beato was way too mature and understanding of Natsuhi's case, Rudolf mentioning that Asumu wasn't that forgiving as she looked seemed completely out of place and random (how had this relevance to the plot? had Asumu done something? Why should we care? And considering what Rudolf did, really, I don't blame her...) and Kyrie's reaction was a lot less emotional than the one in the manga. She's just... shocked. And Shannon and Kanon declaring they'll have a fight... another thing that felt random. As well as Battler's interaction with Shannon later on. In short my feelings were that the plot had been sacrificed to focus more on the quizzes. Now... the quizzes weren't bad but I wasn't reading Umineko for those random quizzes so my enjoyement of the quizzes just couldn't match up the disappointment for the plot. Also the battle with the goats... well, first of all I don't like much to read action scenes. I prefer to see them. Second i would have enjoyed it more if it had given hints or, at least, a little more of a challenge to the guys. They could even keep up with Erika and tons and tons of goats who were capable to eat the gameboard but not them! Well, the Ange/Beato battle was interesting as it presented Ange's point of view over how Beato was 'starving her to death without even touching her'. I'm not really a fan of logic battles of this kind but, at least, this one was a nice comparison to Ange's situation although I would have preferred if it had been developed more. I mean, Ange in that moment wanted to learn the truth and then die. It would have been interesting if it had gotten developed more. Also, I stay my case, Ange was a lot cooler in Ep 4 than for most of Ep 8. They don't even seem the same person. Well, at least the manga depicts much better how Ange is still, inside of herself, a child crying for her family to come back. Will and Lion's presence felt very much like a bonus. Sure, Will fights and he's cool but that's all. Lion is there to be the optimistic one and to meet Beato (unnecessary, we already saw his meeting with Clair and it was better). The plot wouldn't be damaged by them being scrapped out. Tohya/Ikuko was good, though it opened up more questions. I mean Ikuko was way too conveniently a very odd person, it leads easily to think there's something behind this but, if there is... well, we'll never know.