AnimeSuki Forums

grevierr · 2013-09-28, 03:55

It's from Feudal East Asia culture, such as China, where colors are used to define groups of people. Japan has the colors to signify the groups of people that are close to the Emperor in terms of trust and loyalty, so its like a ranking system.

For world usage, every army wants to differentiate itself from another country, as a means of identity and pride. Far as I know, the UN blue was because of peacekeeping missions. Its probably retained in the Alterverse because BETAs don't into colors anyway, and its easier for their own human forces to tell who is who.

IRL, any soldier not wearing his or her own uniform colors, are not applicable for the POW treatment as per the Geneva Convention, aka they won't be recognized as official combatants. Any such illegal soldiers will then have no rights to human treatment. Also, not wearing the correct rank and colors when there is no reason not to do so shows a deep lack of respect and pride towards the symbolism of that rank, and lack of appreciation of what they are fighting for.

wavehawk · 2013-09-28, 04:21

Okay, so no messing around with the Takemi colors. Got it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by grevierr

IRL, any soldier not wearing his or her own uniform colors, are not applicable for the POW treatment as per the Geneva Convention, aka they won't be recognized as official combatants. Any such illegal soldiers will then have no rights to human treatment.

- Technically this applies to all forces, but in actual practice, there's a lot of precedent for false flag or even misidentification operations. Usually, soldiers who intentionally wear another force's uniform (or a noncombatant uniform) do this either to avoid capture (Legitimate), to ambush/attack enemy forces (questionable), or to intentionally cause havoc like assassinate leaders or perform actions that can be blamed on the enemy (Criminal).

Quote:

"Skorzeny admitted to ordering his men to wear US uniforms, but his defence argued that as long as enemy uniforms were discarded before combat started, such a tactic was a legitimate ruse de guerre."

Also:

Quote:

On the final day of the trial, 9 September, Wing Commander F. F. E. Yeo-Thomas, recipient of the George Cross and the Croix de guerre, and a former British Special Operations Executive agent, testified that he and his operatives wore German uniforms behind enemy lines. Realising that to convict Skorzeny could expose their own agents to the same charges, the tribunal acquitted the ten defendants.

In short, the law on non-official combatants et al only applies if you're caught. Which is why when CIA/Special Operations forces go into enemy territory and are caught, they're officially denied by their government. Back in WWII both sides had troops dressed up as civilians or the enemy, which is why Skorzeny and other SS officers escaped execution. Nowadays, if (let's say) a US Navy SEAL was caught in Syria wearing a Syrian Soldier's uniform, the US Government will let him die before admitting he was under orders. So 'officially' the US has not broken any laws, it is just a 'wayward individual' who was caught. By representign a "moral high ground" that gives them some sort of legitimacy if they win.

EDIT:...actually, waitasec (And somewhat back on-topic) I just remembered that the real-life F-5 Tiger was originally an in-house project by Northrop (EG no military funding or support). What we've seen so far in Total Eclipse are TSF projects that are partly (or fully) funded by their respective militaries. If (say for example) a private company were to test their (non-government funded) TSF in actual combat with the BETA, what sort of requirements/permits/et al woudl they need for this?

Fireminer · 2013-09-28, 04:38

Lobbying?

Not really sure about this, but I believe that a project like that need the approve of Congress.

That point of you is true, considering the shamble economy of ML.

Alastor Mobius Toth · 2013-09-28, 11:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by wavehawk

EDIT:...actually, waitasec (And somewhat back on-topic) I just remembered that the real-life F-5 Tiger was originally an in-house project by Northrop (EG no military funding or support). What we've seen so far in Total Eclipse are TSF projects that are partly (or fully) funded by their respective militaries. If (say for example) a private company were to test their (non-government funded) TSF in actual combat with the BETA, what sort of requirements/permits/et al woudl they need for this?

The irony of altverse is that from what information we have available, it seems like it was the U.S government that requested the creation of F-5, or at least investigated the T-38s combat properties (which was its direct predecessor). One of the major rationales was that Americans needed a cheap, reliable TSF that they could sell overseas, because their factories were not keeping up with Phantom production rates.

Hypothetically though...you'd need a warzone, and some kind of an excuse to be in it. Then, a CP (or a mobile equivalent) to record observation data, chaser/support craft, the resupply train, etc.

Wild Goose · 2013-09-28, 12:30

Should note that IRL, the F-14 started as a Grumman study internal design also... Though that was because they looked at the F-111B program, saw the writing on the wall, and decided to get a head start on design.

Interestingly, I've read that in clean configuration, Tomcats could dogfight Eagles and win, but usually they're stuck with the fuckheavy drop tanks (IRL) and so always had to dogfight with that disadvantage.

wavehawk · 2013-09-28, 18:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alastor Mobius Toth

Hypothetically though...you'd need a warzone, and some kind of an excuse to be in it. Then, a CP (or a mobile equivalent) to record observation data, chaser/support craft, the resupply train, etc.

- The warzone isn't an issue. Post-Ouka, most of Eurasia still has BETA in it. And since most UN forces have started to make progress inwards against the remaining hives there would be forward bases now available close enough to the action but not be under direct threat. The excuse is both for testing under live-fire and obviously any additional assets against the BETA would be appreciated.

It's more the legality issue I'm talking about--What do you need to have to get approval, what are the terms and conditions, etc.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wild Goose

Interestingly, I've read that in clean configuration, Tomcats could dogfight Eagles and win, but usually they're stuck with the fuckheavy drop tanks (IRL) and so always had to dogfight with that disadvantage.

- Tomcat's main advantages against Eagle were the Phoenix Missile longer range) and the better speed and maneuver options due to the swing-wing configuration. Disadvantages were Tomcat's larger size and that for most of it's service career the F-14A variant had underpowered engines (Alleviated somewhat by the time they upgraded to F-14D standard).

Fireminer · 2013-09-28, 22:04

So does that mean Super Tomcat could stand the ground and even gained advantage with Silent Eagle (or Strike Eagle)?

Wild Goose · 2013-09-28, 23:02

Depends.

According to Tomcat drivers in ACEVAL/AIMVAL, they had a series of unsanctioned quiet dogfights with Eagles. Tl;dr, it could really go either way in a guns duel.

Now, Muv-Luv hypotheticals: Silent Eagle probably has the advantage because stealth, mike foxtrots. You can't kill what you can't see. Strike Eagle and Super Tomcat are probably even, but I'd think Strike Eagle edges the Super Tomcat on manuverability. Slightly. On the other hand, Super Tomcat's 2-man crew allows the workload to be shared and another set of eyes in the fight.

Tl;dr: Silent has the advantage because stralth. F-14D and F-15E are close and it'll come down to the crew.

wavehawk · 2013-10-03, 04:15

Eh. Tangentially related. If the real-life Silent Eagle isn't dead it soon will be, with a daggy stake in it's heart.
http://www.forbes.com/sites/richarda...aft-wind-down/

I can actually see the very same thing happening to Boening in ML:A. And Heinemann going "I told you so" to everyone. Once the BETA wind down and everyone starts shifting to the more advanced and accessible F-35, if Boening doesn't develop something new and fast, it's TSF division will lose lots of jobs...

Alastor Mobius Toth · 2013-10-03, 04:29

Although Muv-Luv 3rd Gens still take time to be developed (nearly 20 years between Raptor being designed, and entering service), so Boening can still probably squeeze a 2 decades of Strike Eagle usage and purchases, and that's without upgrade plans. Because so many people use them (U.S Army, U.N Orbital Divers, etc, etc.) and not everyone will have the funds or infrastructure to support 3rd Gens right away, Eagle TSFs most likely will still have a long future.

Not to mention that they apparently build Super Hornet TSFs, having acquired the rights for those.

Plus, F-15SE will probably due well in Alt. It's a 3rg Gen, stealthy, flies extremely well. In Japan, it takes direct intervention by Shogun for it to loose versus Type-04 in the bid for next mainstay Imperial TSF, so I imagine Boenings PR department is not slacking off either.

And someone had to make all those G-Bombs too.

Fireminer · 2013-10-03, 04:58

So, what about China? I'm quite surprise that they haven't develop the J-18, 20 and 21.

Wild Goose · 2013-10-03, 05:39

Especially since Mitsubishi will want to make the Type-04 Shiranui locally in Japan... Boening will miss out on that contract.

Well, there's still Super Hornets.

Also, the Silent Eagle is - for those who can afford it and already operate Eagles - an easier pill to swallow than buying Raptors. Hence why Boening is probably trying it's best to pimp the Silent Eagle to Comet! US Space Force and UN. Or if the Shiranui Niigata is chosen by USSF, Boening is going to get the contract for making it in the US, since there's no way in hell Mitsubishi is going to be able to make enough Shiranuis for both the US and Japan.

Fireminer · 2013-10-03, 19:57

Proposed version for F-15J Kai "Kagerou Kai" (not that Ayu-Mayu version):

- Using the F-15E Strike Eagle as the base, but overhauled frame with titanium joints.

- XM3 Operating System.

- Infra-red search and track targeting system.

- MIDS Fighter Data Link Terminal for better communication.

- Automatic Electronically Scanned Array.

- Customized Tactical Electronic Warfare Suite, could be use with the special paint of Silent Eagle to create limited stealth capability.

- New generator with 22% more powerful and efficiency. Complete with larger fuel tank.

- Thicker (by 1cm) armor with carbon-web structure which could reduce the damage of an attack.

grevierr · 2013-10-03, 22:20

You might want to keep the fan based creations in the Fan-Fic threads to avoid confusion.
Also, this is supposed to be for anti-BETA or anti-human modifications? Cause basically those electronic mods are going to be worth fuck-all in a Hive.

Fireminer · 2013-10-03, 22:26

Ah, that is a cheap alternative to the Silent Eagle. And I plan to use it in TDA for anti-TSF!

Wild Goose · 2013-10-04, 00:57

Cheap? Bullshit. Your upgrades aren't going to make it any cheaper than the Silent Eagle. Also, thicker armor increases costs and has a negative effect on combat performance.

In the post-apocalyptic world of TDA, there won't be resources for making your upgraded Eagle.

Alastor Mobius Toth · 2013-10-04, 04:36

>Stealth

>Cheap

Yeah, hahahahaha, that's not how this works.

The technology that makes stealth is expensive, and M-L stealth is probably no different. It would be important to note that Silent Eagle is not really as stealthy as Raptor or Lightning II, which is part of the reason why's it's (relatively) cheaper. Additionally while F-35 is meant as a "cheap" stealth TSF, that's really relative only to other 3rd Generation craft; it costs far more than an average 2nd Gen. Same with Silent Eagle (which is not just stealthy, it's overall a next-Gen Eagle).

Plus, you can't have extra stuff in your TSF (like titanium - which is bloody expensive by the way) and not have it cost more than base version.

If you want to make a cheap TSF, use the F-5. There's a reason why every EU force in the verse loves it.

wavehawk · 2013-10-04, 04:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alastor Mobius Toth

>Stealth

>Cheap

- Actually there IS a cheap way to make a radar-stealthy airplane:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sopwith_camel

Essentially make most of the fuselage out of non-metallic or nonreflective materials.

...Hey, Stealthy and cheap, yes. Nobody ever said anything about effective against modern fighter aircraft!

Fireminer · 2013-10-04, 06:57

When I said "cheap", I mean it's more cost-effective than the Gekkou. And if it's too expensive, then I could write only two dozen of them was produced just before the day, which Ikaruga has already forseen the world beyond it and decided to prepare himself with these machine. The F-15J Kai Kagerou Kai, together with F-16V Viper, F/A 18SA Super Hornet Advance, Su-35 and some other would be the main fighting force of human to finish BETA on Earth after the Day. F-22, F-35 and Su-47 will replace them for Operation "Zero Requiem" ten years later.

Fireminer · 2013-10-04, 07:08

Proposed version two for F-15J Kai "Kagerou Kai":

- Using the F-15E Strike Eagle as the base, but overhauled frame with strengthern joints.

- XM3 Operating System platform.

- Automatic Infra-red Search-and-Track Targeting System.

- MIDS Fighter Data Link Terminal for better communication. Capable of establishing a local network.

- Customized Tactical Electronic Warfare Suite, could be use with the special paint of Silent Eagle to create limited stealth capability.

- Capable of bringing a larger amount of Ammunition.

- New generator with 22% more powerful and efficiency. Complete with larger fuel tank.

- Thinner (by 1cm) armor with carbon-web structure which increase durability.

Overall, the Kagerou Kai is a bit lighter and more suited for TSF v.s TSF warfare.

2013-09-28, 03:55	Link #121
grevierr The Lovable SuBiTA Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Sleeping in Yokohama base, Section 9.	It's from Feudal East Asia culture, such as China, where colors are used to define groups of people. Japan has the colors to signify the groups of people that are close to the Emperor in terms of trust and loyalty, so its like a ranking system. For world usage, every army wants to differentiate itself from another country, as a means of identity and pride. Far as I know, the UN blue was because of peacekeeping missions. Its probably retained in the Alterverse because BETAs don't into colors anyway, and its easier for their own human forces to tell who is who. IRL, any soldier not wearing his or her own uniform colors, are not applicable for the POW treatment as per the Geneva Convention, aka they won't be recognized as official combatants. Any such illegal soldiers will then have no rights to human treatment. Also, not wearing the correct rank and colors when there is no reason not to do so shows a deep lack of respect and pride towards the symbolism of that rank, and lack of appreciation of what they are fighting for. __________________ When in deadly danger, when beset by doubt. Run in little circles, wave your arms and shout.

2013-09-28, 12:30	Link #125
Wild Goose Truth Martyr Author Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Doing Anzu's paperwork. Age: 38	Should note that IRL, the F-14 started as a Grumman study internal design also... Though that was because they looked at the F-111B program, saw the writing on the wall, and decided to get a head start on design. Interestingly, I've read that in clean configuration, Tomcats could dogfight Eagles and win, but usually they're stuck with the fuckheavy drop tanks (IRL) and so always had to dogfight with that disadvantage. __________________ One must forgive one's enemies, but not before they are hanged.Heinrich Heine. *I believe in miracles.* Order of Freelance Mages (Goose's Nanoha OC Project)

2013-09-28, 23:02	Link #128
Wild Goose Truth Martyr Author Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Doing Anzu's paperwork. Age: 38	Depends. According to Tomcat drivers in ACEVAL/AIMVAL, they had a series of unsanctioned quiet dogfights with Eagles. Tl;dr, it could really go either way in a guns duel. Now, Muv-Luv hypotheticals: Silent Eagle probably has the advantage because stealth, mike foxtrots. You can't kill what you can't see. Strike Eagle and Super Tomcat are probably even, but I'd think Strike Eagle edges the Super Tomcat on manuverability. Slightly. On the other hand, Super Tomcat's 2-man crew allows the workload to be shared and another set of eyes in the fight. Tl;dr: Silent has the advantage because stralth. F-14D and F-15E are close and it'll come down to the crew. __________________ One must forgive one's enemies, but not before they are hanged.Heinrich Heine. *I believe in miracles.* Order of Freelance Mages (Goose's Nanoha OC Project)

2013-10-03, 04:15	Link #129
wavehawk Some say I'm the Reverse Join Date: Jul 2006	Eh. Tangentially related. If the real-life Silent Eagle isn't dead it soon will be, with a daggy stake in it's heart. http://www.forbes.com/sites/richarda...aft-wind-down/ I can actually see the very same thing happening to Boening in ML:A. And Heinemann going "I told you so" to everyone. Once the BETA wind down and everyone starts shifting to the more advanced and accessible F-35, if Boening doesn't develop something new and fast, it's TSF division will lose lots of jobs... __________________ "We haven't been properly introduced..."

2013-10-03, 04:29	Link #130
Alastor Mobius Toth Idar Lead Join Date: Sep 2012 Location: World Marshall bureau	Although Muv-Luv 3rd Gens still take time to be developed (nearly 20 years between Raptor being designed, and entering service), so Boening can still probably squeeze a 2 decades of Strike Eagle usage and purchases, and that's without upgrade plans. Because so many people use them (U.S Army, U.N Orbital Divers, etc, etc.) and not everyone will have the funds or infrastructure to support 3rd Gens right away, Eagle TSFs most likely will still have a long future. Not to mention that they apparently build Super Hornet TSFs, having acquired the rights for those. Plus, F-15SE will probably due well in Alt. It's a 3rg Gen, stealthy, flies extremely well. In Japan, it takes direct intervention by Shogun for it to loose versus Type-04 in the bid for next mainstay Imperial TSF, so I imagine Boenings PR department is not slacking off either. And someone had to make all those G-Bombs too. __________________ Let the world fear us all. It's just means to an end. Our salvation lies in the Father's sins.

2013-09-28, 04:38	Link #123
Fireminer Lumine Passio Author Join Date: Jul 2013 Location: Hanoi, Vietnam Age: 18	Lobbying? Not really sure about this, but I believe that a project like that need the approve of Congress. That point of you is true, considering the shamble economy of ML.

2013-09-28, 22:04	Link #127
Fireminer Lumine Passio Author Join Date: Jul 2013 Location: Hanoi, Vietnam Age: 18	So does that mean Super Tomcat could stand the ground and even gained advantage with Silent Eagle (or Strike Eagle)?

2013-10-03, 04:58	Link #131
Fireminer Lumine Passio Author Join Date: Jul 2013 Location: Hanoi, Vietnam Age: 18	So, what about China? I'm quite surprise that they haven't develop the J-18, 20 and 21.

2013-10-03, 05:39	Link #132
Wild Goose Truth Martyr Author Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Doing Anzu's paperwork. Age: 38	Especially since Mitsubishi will want to make the Type-04 Shiranui locally in Japan... Boening will miss out on that contract. Well, there's still Super Hornets. Also, the Silent Eagle is - for those who can afford it and already operate Eagles - an easier pill to swallow than buying Raptors. Hence why Boening is probably trying it's best to pimp the Silent Eagle to Comet! US Space Force and UN. Or if the Shiranui Niigata is chosen by USSF, Boening is going to get the contract for making it in the US, since there's no way in hell Mitsubishi is going to be able to make enough Shiranuis for both the US and Japan. __________________ One must forgive one's enemies, but not before they are hanged.Heinrich Heine. *I believe in miracles.* Order of Freelance Mages (Goose's Nanoha OC Project)

2013-10-03, 19:57	Link #133
Fireminer Lumine Passio Author Join Date: Jul 2013 Location: Hanoi, Vietnam Age: 18	Proposed version for F-15J Kai "Kagerou Kai" (not that Ayu-Mayu version): - Using the F-15E Strike Eagle as the base, but overhauled frame with titanium joints. - XM3 Operating System. - Infra-red search and track targeting system. - MIDS Fighter Data Link Terminal for better communication. - Automatic Electronically Scanned Array. - Customized Tactical Electronic Warfare Suite, could be use with the special paint of Silent Eagle to create limited stealth capability. - New generator with 22% more powerful and efficiency. Complete with larger fuel tank. - Thicker (by 1cm) armor with carbon-web structure which could reduce the damage of an attack. Last edited by Fireminer; 2013-10-03 at 22:31.

2013-10-03, 22:20	Link #134
grevierr The Lovable SuBiTA Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Sleeping in Yokohama base, Section 9.	You might want to keep the fan based creations in the Fan-Fic threads to avoid confusion. Also, this is supposed to be for anti-BETA or anti-human modifications? Cause basically those electronic mods are going to be worth fuck-all in a Hive. __________________ When in deadly danger, when beset by doubt. Run in little circles, wave your arms and shout.

2013-10-03, 22:26	Link #135
Fireminer Lumine Passio Author Join Date: Jul 2013 Location: Hanoi, Vietnam Age: 18	Ah, that is a cheap alternative to the Silent Eagle. And I plan to use it in TDA for anti-TSF!

2013-10-04, 00:57	Link #136
Wild Goose Truth Martyr Author Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Doing Anzu's paperwork. Age: 38	Cheap? Bullshit. Your upgrades aren't going to make it any cheaper than the Silent Eagle. Also, thicker armor increases costs and has a negative effect on combat performance. In the post-apocalyptic world of TDA, there won't be resources for making your upgraded Eagle. __________________ One must forgive one's enemies, but not before they are hanged.Heinrich Heine. *I believe in miracles.* Order of Freelance Mages (Goose's Nanoha OC Project)

2013-10-04, 04:36	Link #137
Alastor Mobius Toth Idar Lead Join Date: Sep 2012 Location: World Marshall bureau	>Stealth >Cheap Yeah, hahahahaha, that's not how this works. The technology that makes stealth is expensive, and M-L stealth is probably no different. It would be important to note that Silent Eagle is not really as stealthy as Raptor or Lightning II, which is part of the reason why's it's (relatively) cheaper. Additionally while F-35 is meant as a "cheap" stealth TSF, that's really relative only to other 3rd Generation craft; it costs far more than an average 2nd Gen. Same with Silent Eagle (which is not just stealthy, it's overall a next-Gen Eagle). Plus, you can't have extra stuff in your TSF (like titanium - which is bloody expensive by the way) and not have it cost more than base version. If you want to make a cheap TSF, use the F-5. There's a reason why every EU force in the verse loves it. __________________ Let the world fear us all. It's just means to an end. Our salvation lies in the Father's sins.

2013-10-04, 06:57	Link #139
Fireminer Lumine Passio Author Join Date: Jul 2013 Location: Hanoi, Vietnam Age: 18	When I said "cheap", I mean it's more cost-effective than the Gekkou. And if it's too expensive, then I could write only two dozen of them was produced just before the day, which Ikaruga has already forseen the world beyond it and decided to prepare himself with these machine. The F-15J Kai Kagerou Kai, together with F-16V Viper, F/A 18SA Super Hornet Advance, Su-35 and some other would be the main fighting force of human to finish BETA on Earth after the Day. F-22, F-35 and Su-47 will replace them for Operation "Zero Requiem" ten years later.

2013-10-04, 07:08	Link #140
Fireminer Lumine Passio Author Join Date: Jul 2013 Location: Hanoi, Vietnam Age: 18	Proposed version two for F-15J Kai "Kagerou Kai": - Using the F-15E Strike Eagle as the base, but overhauled frame with strengthern joints. - XM3 Operating System platform. - Automatic Infra-red Search-and-Track Targeting System. - MIDS Fighter Data Link Terminal for better communication. Capable of establishing a local network. - Customized Tactical Electronic Warfare Suite, could be use with the special paint of Silent Eagle to create limited stealth capability. - Capable of bringing a larger amount of Ammunition. - New generator with 22% more powerful and efficiency. Complete with larger fuel tank. - Thinner (by 1cm) armor with carbon-web structure which increase durability. Overall, the Kagerou Kai is a bit lighter and more suited for TSF v.s TSF warfare.