Kanon - Spoilers & Speculation (for experienced Kagikkos only)

[Ascaloth]

Originally Posted by Princess_of_Hell

I think that Shiori is going to die this time. Kaori is going to punish herself for not being able to say good-bye to her dead sister. There will be a funeral scene where Kaori and Yuuichi will talk abot Shiori and remininse about her. They will probably show flashbacks featuring Shiori from earlier episodes. Nayuki will know the truth from Kaori. At the end of the episode, they will show a smiling Shiori laughing.

That is what I believe is going to happen. Some girl has to die because I don't want the ending to be the same as the Toei version, too HAPPY-HAPPY. Maybe Ayu is dead in this version of Kanon. She just doesn't realize it yet and the nurse in episode 16 is in shock from seeing someone who is supposed to be dead suddenly be seen alive. That is my theory since Ayu is never mentioned as being in a coma. When she finds her "treasure thing", she will remember what happened and suddenly realize she is dead and disappear. No coma this time.

I see the "Toei Kanon being too HAPPY-HAPPY and KyoAni Kanon should fix that" complaint quite a bit these days, whenever anyone argues about whether Ayu or some other girl should die. But personally.....I'd much rather KyoAni Kanon take the happy ending, just as Toei did 4 years ago.

Let's see, who's going to be up against me with pitchforks, now? Well then, before you guys skewer me.....Friends, Kagikkos, Countrymen, lend me your ears!!!!

Okay, I just wanted to say that for kicks. Moving on to the serious stuff......

I believe that those who wishes that the Kanon girls would die are actually wishing that Kanon's storyline itself would turn out to be as tragic as AIR's was. And personally....I think that comparing Kanon and AIR in that way is a flawed process. Sure it's a KEY bishoujo game, sure it's a KEY-patented "crying game".....but otherwise, it's comparing an apple to an orange. Surprise, surprise.

In my experiences of the Japanese "bittersweet tragedy" genre, I've found that the stories in this genre typically take one of two typical endings; they can basically be categorized into the "heartwarming fairytale" and the "epic tragedy" endings. Both endings encompass both the "bitter" and the "sweet", and rarely would you find a story where it's either all "bitter" or all "sweet"....am I making sense here? Blah.

Basically, in "heartwarming fairytale" endings, it speaks for itself; it's the "good" ending as you people may understand it, but in true Japanese fashion, there's always a catch that mars what would have been an unrealistically perfect ending, conversely making it more realistic and acceptable as a result. As for the "epic tragedy" ending, it's the "bad" ending......but there's always some good to be found in the bad, a silver lining to be found in the great gray mass of cloud. And even though I wouldn't call myself exceptionally experienced in such stories, I do think I have seen a pattern where these two ending styles are concerned; very often, you'll find two stories dealing with very similar story content, but the different approaches that are taken, and the endings that the different approaches lead to, are what characterises the plots, and sets them apart from each other.

Some examples. First off, let's compare Narcissu, a doujin visual novel by Kataoka Tomo, and Hanbun no Tsuki ga Noboru Sora, a seinen novel series later adapted as an anime, written by Tsumugu Hashimoto. Both are set with the male protagonist and the female lead initially in a hospital setting, with the threat of death hanging over the female lead. However, what sets one apart from the other is how the leads deal with their situation in both stories,

Spoiler for the eventual endings in both stories:

The "heartwarming fairytale" - Hanbun no Tsuki ga Noboru Sora

Rika survives the final operation, but she and Yuuichi learns that even so, she will not survive long. Nevertheless, they decide to make the most of what they have left to them, and start on a journey that will have them making a lifetime of memories in what little time they have left.

The "epic tragedy" - Narcissu

Setsumi was ready to put an end to a meaningless life, but the nameless male protagonist helps to awaken the last vestiges of hope within her, even if it is a hope doomed never to be realized. Still, he manages to get her to smile on the last day, just before she takes her own life by drowning off the shores of Awajishima.

Secondly, let's see how this pattern crosses over even into Korea. Or more specifically, the two drama serials that sparked off the K-wave, Autumn in my Heart and Winter Sonata,

Spoiler for same thing again...:

The "heartwarming fairytale" - Winter Sonata

Jun Sang (male lead) and Yujin (female lead) seperates in the end, despite her knowing that Jun Sang was not, in fact, her half-brother, and that he was going to America for an operation that would either kill him or make him go blind, while she goes to France to further her studies. Three years on though, they have a chance encounter.....only for Yujin to see that Jun Sang has indeed gone blind despite having survived the operation. Nevertheless, they are reunited.

The "epic tragedy" - Autumn in my Heart

Jun-suh (male lead) and Eun-suh (female lead), being siblings (although not in a biological sense), have faced problems throughout their relationship from being opposed by everyone they knew. In the end, Eun-suh contracts leukemia, but keeps it a secret from everyone until it was too late to save her. In the end, she died as Jun-suh was carrying her around the beach where they spent her birthday as teenagers. Before Eun-suh died, she told Jun-seo not to follow her in death, and to continue living. However, Jun-suh, grief-stricken by the death of his lover and "sister", allowed himself to be struck by a truck, and he died shortly afterwards. And so, the lovers are reunited....even if it was in death.

I know, I know. Compared to the Japanese art forms, the Korean way of storytelling is so cheesy in comparison....but it's another example of my point.


And finally, let's use as the third example, none other than the "canon" endings of the Kanon and AIR games from which the anime was derived from....

Spoiler for now this gets interesting, but if you don't wish to be spoiled....:

The "heartwarming fairytale" - Kanon

As most Kagikkos would concur, the "canon" ending of Kanon was the Ayu path. In that path, she wakes up from her endless dream.....and a year on, we see her in a hairdo and wardrobe Simon Cowell would have a field day with, waiting for Yuuichi.....but what comes after that? What are the troubles they are going to face in their new life together? Are they even officially together in the first place? So many unanswered questions......it's the best ending for Ayu, all right, but how far does the honeymoon stretches before reality hits? It's not answered in the game....leaving the player to make his guesses about that.

The "epic tragedy" - AIR

Unlike Kanon, where one might dispute the "true" ending, there's no denying that Misuzu's story takes centerstage in this one. In the end, Yukito sacrifices himself to save Misuzu's life......only to be able to give her a bit more time before her inevitable decline once again. However, while the time was short....it was enough for Misuzu and Haruka to squeeze "a lifetime of memories" within what little remains of the summer. And even after she dies, Sora takes her happy memories to "the girl in the sky", breaking the thousand-year curse of painful reincarnation, letting her start all over again.

Therefore, as you can see, there's a trend of the genre having similar storylines that stand out from each other by the approach that they take. And I believe that Kyoto Animation's adaptation of Kanon is not going to break that tradition....for a very good reason.

Put it this way. They're the ones who made AIR TV. Why would they want to redo the "epic tragedy" when they're already responsible for adapting one? Far more sense to adapt Kanon into its original, and best-suited form of the "heartwarming fairytale", than to do a hackjob with it by splicing parts of AIR into Kanon where it simply doesn't fit well.

In other words, for best effect, I believe that KyoAni's adaptation will follow Toei's route of "happy endings everywhere".....because Toei, in turn, took it straight out of the game itself. And KyoAni promised a faithful retelling of the Kanon storyline, and turning it from the "heartwarming fairytale" it originally is to an "epic tragedy" that it is not would be breaking the promise.

Simply put, your mileage may vary when it comes to your opinion on which ending is the best for Kanon. However, I believe KyoAni is going to go with "canon"....and by "canon", that means only Makoto kicks it, as she was always destined to do even in the original game.

[Skane]

Well, that's a bit of a generalisation. For the record, I watched K02 before Air(TV), and I already had strong feelings about the revival of Ayu back then. I argued my points in quite a lot of detail on the earlier pages of this thread, and I am firm in my stance on the issue.

I take offence about the Air(TV) comparison, because it reflects unfairly on many K02 watchers who genuinely feel that the Ayu-arc would be that much better, in terms of poignancy and what have you, if they did not rob the potency of the revelation scene in the forest( amongst other points that favour a dead Ayu).

Cheers.

[VRMN]

Ascaloth:

I find your points very interesting, and in fact, I can't really disagree with the points as they relate to Kanon, as I believe that Kanon will follow the "heartwarming fairytale" path, but at the same time it can be argued that Ayu's revival was...cheap. I love her character, and was relieved in the 2K2 version when she wasn't really dead. At the same time, it felt awkward.

If KyoAni will indeed take that path, with Shiori's miracle coming through as well as Ayu and Akiko's, as is certainly possible, as you point out, I believe that awkwardness/feeling of betrayal story-wise can be remedied, at least somehat. The answer is pacing. I would hope, with (at 24 episodes and Shiori's arc ending by the end of episode 18/beginning of episode 19) six episodes remaining, that Ayu will find her lost thing around episode 21, giving Nayuki/Akiko's arc a good chance to develop, with the revelation of her true status and revival occuring in episode 23/24 as the finale.

[relentlessflame]

Originally Posted by Skane

I take offence about the Air(TV) comparison, because it reflects unfairly on many K02 watchers who genuinely feel that the Ayu-arc would be that much better, in terms of poignancy and what have you, if they did not rob the potency of the revelation scene in the forest( amongst other points that favour a dead Ayu).

The revelation in the forest didn't point to Ayu being dead, but that she had an accident and was living a dream. The dream had to end -- but that didn't mean she had to die, just that she had to return to reality (i.e. to wake up). Even in the 2002 anime, we already knew (though may not have remembered) she was in a coma, thanks to the anime's opening scene. In other words, she was sleeping all this time, and living a dream (as her monologues kept on reminding us). At the end of the dream, she woke up. The miracle was that she was reunited with Yuuichi. So there's really nothing that favours a dead Ayu at all. She's dreaming, not dead or dying. When a dream ends, you wake up -- otherwise they would have used a different metaphor.

[Boukenxha]

Well I've always thought that having Ayu die from the fall 7 years ago is not an option. The ending will be left hollow as in what's the point of remembering the pain when you can't make any good of it. It will always be a regret to Yuuichi that he forgotten an important part of his life, that he shouldn't have left 7 years ago, that he shouldn't have came back 7 years later, that he didn't have more time with Ayu's apparition before she disappeared. Due to the structure of the story, there won't be a complete closure, and our protagonist if he is not heartless will bear a scar that will never lightens.

If you ask me, my idea of a good tragic story is one that will bring you to the depths of hell but never fails to throw you a lifeline at the end. Even taking the "epic tragedy" examples which Ascaloth cited, there are lifelines however small they may be. The victim pass away in peace, last wish fulfilled, the living carry on the will of the dead etc etc.

Anyway back to Kanon and Ayu's arc, to have Ayu dead and still be my kind of a good tragic story and provide good closure, parts of the original material will need to be changed (I don't know how Kyoani will do that but I doubt that have that intention.) Otherwise, the next "worst" ending is to have Ayu remain in coma, such that Yuuichi still have a chance to take care of her if not for the small hope that a miracle will happen. With all that said, I still think it's a non-issue. I'm pretty sure the anime will show the same thing as the game epilogue which is the true ending and imo a good ending. Of course, if you haven't notice, I'm an Ayu fan, though I'm also a Mai fan and Nayuki fan. I'm sure you guys have different opinions of what a good tragic story is like, but these are as unbias as my opinion can get.

EDIT: Well so far in Kanon 2006, we haven't gotten any solid clues that Ayu is in coma in the hospital right? I guess that's not even a problem since we are all familiar with Kanon in this thread? But like relentlessflame pointed out so aptly, it's a dream and when a dream ends, you wake up. Damn why didn't I think of answering that way, saves me time on typing.

[Vexx]

aye... the beginning of every episode describes the dream-state she's in that projects into reality. Now if you want her to *expire* at the end after he discovers her, that makes some sense (but I'd find it overly melodramatic even for Kanon). I suppose one could even write up something that had her dreaming all this into the future in the split second before she did die (anyone seen "Incident at Owl Creek" - I think thats the name) though...

[New/Old]

Originally Posted by Vexx

I've decided to stop applying my expectations of what I *want* to happen completely. Empty the mind and just watch the events unfold...

Agreed. What Kyoani decides will be decided. All that can be done and enjoy the ride and watch the story unfold. When everything is said and done, everyone is free to comment on what could have been improved on and things that could have been included.

Until then, I'll enjoy the ride and look back on the series for a bit of thinking and review when the end does come about. Hmm-hmm.

[Skane]

Originally Posted by relentlessflame

The revelation in the forest didn't point to Ayu being dead, but that she had an accident and was living a dream. The dream had to end -- but that didn't mean she had to die, just that she had to return to reality (i.e. to wake up). Even in the 2002 anime, we already knew (though may not have remembered) she was in a coma, thanks to the anime's opening scene. In other words, she was sleeping all this time, and living a dream (as her monologues kept on reminding us). At the end of the dream, she woke up. The miracle was that she was reunited with Yuuichi. So there's really nothing that favours a dead Ayu at all. She's dreaming, not dead or dying. When a dream ends, you wake up -- otherwise they would have used a different metaphor.

You know. This makes me kind of upset. Since it indicates you either didn't read my earlier posts on the matter in this thread( the serious discussion ones, not the light-hearted ones), or forgot about what I wrote.

To clarify again, and to repeat myself again.

When I meant it favoured a dead Ayu, I was referring to the aftermath, not her present status. The desire to meet Yuuichi again was so strong that it kept Ayu alive, and after seven years of waiting, Ayu apparently forgot about what actually happened.

The revelation in the forest was beautiful in that it gave closure to the Ayu-Yuuichi story, and Ayu's wish of meeting Yuuichi again was finally realised over and over again. It was a strong scene both emotionally and in finality... if the implications held true, but they did not.

The problem I have with that scene, and the subsequent 'revival' one, is that the transition period is far too long. By the time the audience has settled down from the impact, Ayu's revival would seem cheap and sort of a magic 'rabbit out of a hat' plot device.

If Ayu was meant to wake up, why all that jazz with Angelic-wings and 'Holy Light from the Heavens'? They could have just made her blink out or something. Make that forest scene inconclusive!

You don't end a story and then just tack on a few extra chapters just for the heck of it. It throws off the rhythm of the story. It leaves a bad taste in the audience's mouth( mine did at least).

Now, I am not Hell-bent to the point of wanting Ayu to die that I would refuse even if KyoAni offered me a million Yen to accept it and shut up; and I am receptive to the idea of Ayu living if the story-telling from forest scene to hospital scene is inspired, and not feel tacky.

There are a lot of anim- no. There are a lot of stories in which a character seemingly dies and then miraculously appear alive for almost inexplicable reasons much later in the story. This is one of my most hated plot devices EVER, because it jerks around with the audience's feelings.

If you want to bring back a character alive... please leave behind clues/hints and/or make the 'death' scene inconclusive, so that the revival scene is believable and not such that it insults the audience's feelings and makes them go, "WTFBBQ?"

Cheers.

[Vexx]

I'll definitely agree with the idea that Ayu's forest parting should be much more inconclusive (scratch the TOEI special effects) and just leave Yuuichi to ASSUME that he'd been witness to yet another supernatural closure event.
If Ayu passed away in the hospital at that point and Yuuichi finds out later that would be even more heart-piercing I suppose but rescuing her from a coma would also be less maudlin if he realized he had misinterpreted the situation.

Well.. so far KyoAni has left TOEI so far in the dust I think there's about 45 seconds of the TOEI version I actually miss (e.g. makoto-in-a-box-stalking) so I'm content to see what they have in store. I'm assuming that given the general lack of more than subliminal touches on Nayuki they're going to give her some serious attention soon.

[Ascaloth]

Originally Posted by Skane

I take offence about the Air(TV) comparison, because it reflects unfairly on many K02 watchers who genuinely feel that the Ayu-arc would be that much better, in terms of poignancy and what have you, if they did not rob the potency of the revelation scene in the forest( amongst other points that favour a dead Ayu).

Well, I'm sorry you're offended, but I'm not here to please you. So tough luck, Joe.

Originally Posted by VRMN

Ascaloth:

I find your points very interesting, and in fact, I can't really disagree with the points as they relate to Kanon, as I believe that Kanon will follow the "heartwarming fairytale" path, but at the same time it can be argued that Ayu's revival was...cheap. I love her character, and was relieved in the 2K2 version when she wasn't really dead. At the same time, it felt awkward.

If KyoAni will indeed take that path, with Shiori's miracle coming through as well as Ayu and Akiko's, as is certainly possible, as you point out, I believe that awkwardness/feeling of betrayal story-wise can be remedied, at least somehat. The answer is pacing. I would hope, with (at 24 episodes and Shiori's arc ending by the end of episode 18/beginning of episode 19) six episodes remaining, that Ayu will find her lost thing around episode 21, giving Nayuki/Akiko's arc a good chance to develop, with the revelation of her true status and revival occuring in episode 23/24 as the finale.

Originally Posted by Skane

To clarify again, and to repeat myself again.

When I meant it favoured a dead Ayu, I was referring to the aftermath, not her present status. The desire to meet Yuuichi again was so strong that it kept Ayu alive, and after seven years of waiting, Ayu apparently forgot about what actually happened.

The revelation in the forest was beautiful in that it gave closure to the Ayu-Yuuichi story, and Ayu's wish of meeting Yuuichi again was finally realised over and over again. It was a strong scene both emotionally and in finality... if the implications held true, but they did not.

The problem I have with that scene, and the subsequent 'revival' one, is that the transition period is far too long. By the time the audience has settled down from the impact, Ayu's revival would seem cheap and sort of a magic 'rabbit out of a hat' plot device.

If Ayu was meant to wake up, why all that jazz with Angelic-wings and 'Holy Light from the Heavens'? They could have just made her blink out or something. Make that forest scene inconclusive!

You don't end a story and then just tack on a few extra chapters just for the heck of it. It throws off the rhythm of the story. It leaves a bad taste in the audience's mouth( mine did at least).

Now, I am not Hell-bent to the point of wanting Ayu to die that I would refuse even if KyoAni offered me a million Yen to accept it and shut up; and I am receptive to the idea of Ayu living if the story-telling from forest scene to hospital scene is inspired, and not feel tacky.

There are a lot of anim- no. There are a lot of stories in which a character seemingly dies and then miraculously appear alive for almost inexplicable reasons much later in the story. This is one of my most hated plot devices EVER, because it jerks around with the audience's feelings.

If you want to bring back a character alive... please leave behind clues/hints and/or make the 'death' scene inconclusive, so that the revival scene is believable and not such that it insults the audience's feelings and makes them go, "WTFBBQ?"

Cheers.

Okay, I'm starting to understand why there is such a sentiment against Ayu from certain sections of the Kanon fandom. However, I'm also beginning to recognize a very good reason for the sentiment in the first place; definitely, Ayu's revival does seem a bit tacked on, and that is something I cannot disagree with. However Skane, the way you have been harping on it makes me feel there's something about you. I can't say I'm pretty sure, but I'll make a reasoned guess; you haven't actually played the game, have you? Your only prior experience of Kanon, like mine, was just through the Toei 2k2, right?

Am I right? If so, here's food for thought for you......think about it. It's the infamous Toei version you watched before. Could it not be possible that Toei also mangled Ayu's path? Could it be that Ayu's revival scene in 2k2 Kanon felt so awkward....because Toei mangled it so badly it felt like her revival looked like a tacked-on afterthought?

In other words.....if you could have understood the original game, could it not be possible the original story handled Ayu's revival a lot better than Toei did? Could it not be possible that, have you had the ability to read it, you might have actually grown to like Ayu's good ending?

And even if that was not so.....think about what you're watching now. What you're watching now is a Kanon adaptation by, of all studios, the godly Kyoto Animation. Could it not be possible that they'll make some changes to the original storyline, and end up telling the Kanon story better than even KEY itself did? Goodness knows they've achieved that more than once already, so far. Could it not be possible that the KyoAni rendition of Ayu's revival would turn out to be far better handled than you might imagine?

If you concede either, or even both, of the two possibilities....there's really no need to prematurely call for poor Ayu's head, is there?

I rest my case here for the time being. There really is no need to put your foot down at this stage and say which would definitively be better. As everyone else has said......give KyoAni its chance, and wait to see what kind of magic they can come up with. I'm offering my hand in peace to you, Skane.


EDIT:

Originally Posted by Skane

If Shiori does indeed die in K06, then the odds of Ayu dying will dramatically rise, as without Shiori, a lot of the post-coma Ayu scenes will be undoable without retconing them. I want Ayu to die in this version, but I don't really want Shiori to die... I'm so conflicted.

I was thinking about that, and after watching Episode 17, I suddenly had an idea regarding them.

Take note of what both Kaori and Shiori were saying about the latter's condition. Especially what I think to be the key statement made by Kaori:

"Even if she does make it to her birthday, she won't last much longer past than that."

Get the drift yet? If not, let me put it simply.....for all intents and purposes, let's say KyoAni's Shiori is doomed to die. But who says she has to die at the stroke of midnight in Episode 18?

Kaori said Shiori won't last much longer past her birthday. For all we know, that could mean a few seconds, a few days, a few months......heck, just like in Rika's case in Hantsuki, a few years. In which case, maybe Shiori really does die in the end.....but who's to say she won't survive long enough to participate in the "post-coma Ayu scenes"?

More food for thought about Shiori's, as well as Ayu's, eventual fate.

[Skane]

Well, I did mention that I have given a lifeline to Ayu in that I am willing to wait and see how KyoAni does the transition from forest to hospital.

With regards to my limited knowledge of the Kanon-verse, it is true that I watched K02 first. Reading the game transcripts came after that, because I had a nagging feeling about the plotholes( and this is from a non-game-player mind you), and by jove was I blown away by what I read( especially Mai's arc, which was still my favourite in Toei's version despite being viciously amputated, almost mutilated beyond recognition and pissed/spit upon by the scriptwriters... Okay, I exaggerate a little too much ).

K02 was the first bishoujo anime that I watched of my own volition, and it vastly altered my personal perception of such animes. Before K02, I was watching mostly action-anime, especially the ultra-violent ones with insanity and what have you. I never really expected to find genuine pathos in bishoujo animes, outside of standard teenage angst( which just crawls in my skin ).

I will be waiting for the forest scene... that will be one of the pivotal points that may or may not change my resolve about Ayu's mortality.

I am generally critical when it comes to analysing a series, even when it comes to my personal favourites. I will praise when need be, and point out what I feel to be faults when I see them.

It may seem overly harsh( or nit-picky if you want to be negative about it ), but this is one of the ways I derive my enjoyment from anime. The analysing part of it. The Literature-spirit within me demands it.

Cheers.

[Ascaloth]

Originally Posted by Skane

Well, I did mention that I have given a lifeline to Ayu in that I am willing to wait and see how KyoAni does the transition from forest to hospital.

With regards to my limited knowledge of the Kanon-verse, it is true that I watched K02 first. Reading the game transcripts came after that, because I had a nagging feeling about the plotholes( and this is from a non-game-player mind you), and by jove was I blown away by what I read( especially Mai's arc, which was still my favourite in Toei's version despite being viciously amputated, almost mutilated beyond recognition and pissed/spit upon by the scriptwriters... Okay, I exaggerate a little too much ).

K02 was the first bishoujo anime that I watched of my own volition, and it vastly altered my personal perception of such animes. Before K02, I was watching mostly action-anime, especially the ultra-violent ones with insanity and what have you. I never really expected to find genuine pathos in bishoujo animes, outside of standard teenage angst( which just crawls in my skin ).

I will be waiting for the forest scene... that will be one of the pivotal points that may or may not change my resolve about Ayu's mortality.

I am generally critical when it comes to analysing a series, even when it comes to my personal favourites. I will praise when need be, and point out what I feel to be faults when I see them.

It may seem overly harsh( or nit-picky if you want to be negative about it ), but this is one of the ways I derive my enjoyment from anime. The analysing part of it. The Literature-spirit within me demands it.

Cheers.

Fair enough, there's no way I can fault you on your approach. If I were you though, I'll not focus exclusively on the forest scene.....I'll pay close attention to what happens after that, too. Specifically, the period from the forest scene, all the way to Ayu's revival, is the critical phase for me, where the manner in which Yuuichi handles all of that will make or break my impressions of him as a character, as well as make or break the story in general.

Other than that, I can fully empathise with your approach, Skane. After all, I was once a Literature student, too.

[panzerfan]

(After reading that, for some reason, I am suddenly starting to think that maybe the story about revival of Christ isn't all its cracked out to be... I mean c'mon, from 3 days - a month that he gets out of the cave?)

I am leaning to making a call about that after episode 18. I suppose I will side with Vexx here. I am personally all the more interested to see how Yuuichi's thoughts will evolve, and episode 17 has shown a great picture of his mindset.

Since there's mentioning of AIR, I wonder if KyoAni will choose to let Kaori grow as Haruko did regarding Shiori. Given the material, I doubt that'll be likely, but I suppose one can never say never.

[Devil Doll]

Usually I'm also very critical about the logic of story development. But I liked the 2k2 ending very much. Why is that?

Because I didn't ask for medical reasons for Ayu awakening. I'm in the "Ayu is dreaming" camp, so her awakening was the logical conclusion for her story arc. What we may argue about is the "angelic" symbolism for her "floating soul" - I didn't take her wings as proof that she must be dead but rather for her being an "astral being". Ayu's revival at the end of 2k2 came unexpected for me (because my take was that Ayu's final wish of Yuuichi forgetting her, which was denied by Yuuichi, then came to use for saving Akiko; Ayu awoke because of Yuuichi returning the hairband to her, whatever medical effect that could have had...) but it was Nayuki's heroic deed that made the day for me, regardless of whether and when Ayu would actually wake up.

2k2 isn't all about miracles; I guess it's more about sacrifices, and some of them even turning out bad decisions:

• Makoto sacrificed her life to see Yuuichi again (we don't know whether it was worth the price, only Makoto could tell us);
• Mai sacrificed her happiness of living as a normal girl (note that 2k2 hasn't her "power" backstory in all that detail!) to treasure her memories (and thus didn't understand that Sayuri is her future; fortunately Mai's error was corrected by Sayuri);
• Kaori sacrificed her happiness with Shiori because she was afraid of the consequences (again, wrong decision - once Kaori overcame her selfishness she revived Shiori's will to live, thus causing Shiori's miracle to happen); and finally,
• Nayuki sacrifices her affection for Yuuichi by guiding him to comatose Ayu in the hospital (best decision of all, making Nayuki the hero of 2k2, her kiss was well earned).

I've read in this thread that the Toei version were "all happy" - which I'd strongly object to. Let's have a look at the story development so far, and try to translate both 2k2 and 2k6 back into a game:

• Makoto arc: In 2k6, Yuuichi "won" this arc as he was able to fulfill Makoto's final wish to marry her. In 2k2, Yuuichi "lost" this arc as Makoto dissolved before Yuuichi reached the hill, and Yuuichi cried bitterly about Makoto leaving him too soon.
• Mai arc: In 2k6, Yuuichi "won" this arc by making Hope heal Mai due to him renewing his promise to her. In 2k2, Yuuichi "lost" this arc because even after he revealed his identity to Mai she still tried to commit suicide. The winner of the 2k2 Mai arc was Sayuri, not Yuuichi.

So Yuuichi "lost" both arcs in 2k2 while he "won" both arcs in 2k6! No wonder he's so depressed by now: Shiori's fate looks like his first defeat in 2k6 (note how Yuuichi himself states this at the start of episode 17: He was able to fix both Makoto's and Mai's problems but has no clue how to heal Shiori; he is about to get the right idea of healing Kaori first but had little success there so far) while it became his first success in 2k2 (well, actually more like Nayuki's success because it was her who convinced Kaori to speak her mind despite Yuuichi working so hard for making Kaori reconsider).
As for the forthcoming arcs: Yuuichi kind of "won" Ayu's arc in 2k2 by finding the doll but again it was Nayuki who "rallied the troops" and made Yuuichi actually give it a try, and it was Kitagawa who found the doll (the one least enthusiastic to help Yuuichi, nice touch). And Yuuichi certainly lost the Nayuki arc in 2k2, being unable to do anything to comfort his cousin or even answer her feelings for him. In 2k2 Yuuichi ended up winning not a single arc without significant help by the girls around him. 2k2 isn't a game at all thus it doesn't need a superhero lead, which is what I like most about the Toei version.

As for the Shiori arc in 2k6, I'm all for Shiori dying now. I have no problems with the doctors being right or wrong as Kaori's support for Shiori might well be the significant factor for both possible outcomes but I have a feeling that 2k6 could handle Shiori's death quite well and it might even improve the story development.
First of all, Yuuichi "winning" this arc as well I would consider boring, he's too much of a super hero already. I like Kaori's stubborn attitude (which doesn't mean I think she's right to do so but she's a character at least, and thus is allowed to have flaws); after she fell back into denial mode why should she turn around in time? I would love to see Kaori's face when Shiori actually died (and watch Kitagawa trying to comfort her...). And observing Kaori's failure could teach Yuuichi a lesson about his own attitude when learning about Ayu's condition - we all have watched KGNE, right?
Secondly, I've criticized the huge gap between Yuuichi (more adult than in 2k2) and Ayu (more childish than in 2k2) in 2k6, making it implausible for these two to credibly become a couple (which would be necessary for Ayu surviving - if Yuuichi chose Nayuki in the end then Ayu might as well have died 7 years ago without making a difference... except for her final wish possibly saving Akiko). If Shiori actually were to die in the next two episodes it would provide a unique possibility for Ayu to grow into the role of a worthy partner for Yuuichi, one that could reasonably compete with Nayuki (as to make Nayuki's story more plausible in the end). If Yuuichi were able to fix Shiori's problem as well then he might turn that into a routine: "Well, obviously I am able to raise the dead, so which girl's issue didn't I fix yet? Let's start by healing Nayuki's cat allergy as a home exercise..."

I am just afraid that Shiori is way too healthy right now as to die real soon... we didn't ever see her suffer or feel pain, and she handled the waiting for Yuuichi in the cold exceptionally well, therefore Shiori suddenly dying in episode 19 would come as a big surprise (the doctor's predicion can't possibly have been that accurate).
So the most likely development is that 2k6 will end up like 2k2, which I'd consider a pity. Shiori dying, Ayu dying (by sacrificing her final wish for Akiko as to spare Yuuichi and Nayuki from the pain Ayu experienced when she lost her own mother), Nayuki winning Yuuichi's heart would all have been plausible options, and I'd rather like to watch a different path than a pure remake with a superhero lead, no matter how technically perfect individual episodes are being delivered.

[npal]

Well, I'll make a few comments.

First of all, I agree with Skane regarding Ayu. I myself have argued about it on various occasions so I won't bother now since Skane made those points repeatedly on this thread.

Secondly, I'm not getting good vibes regarding the above.
Exhibit a) Mai. The "you were in a dream, wake up" is bad for me. Really bad.
Exhibit b) Arcs so far. Basically I'm getting EXACTLY the same reactions from each arc resolution as I had with Toei's version. That's both good and bad. Good in that KyoAni manages to deliver at least the same level of emotional impact I experienced with Toei's version during the SAME ARCS while buffing up the department they're good at, animation and comedy . However, that fact alone is a very bad indicator. If all arcs yield the same reaction from both adaptations, it's a good indication that Ayu's resolution will yield the same crappy feeling I had back in Toei's version. So the point of KyoAni making iKanon's ending somehow better isn't proven so far. The only thing KyoAni proved to do better is a) animation , b)comedy, c) getting a higher episode count ->using more material from the story. I speak for myself of course, but even with the extra material, the emotional impact for me is the same and if Shiori's arc has the same impact to me, all the more to expect a tearful Nayuki and a crappy Ayu resolution. But then, some purist will just up saying that the original Kanon ending must be like that, etc etc. Well, no one said the original ending wasn't crap, and that goes for many eroge-anime adaptations, and it's at times like this that artistic license HAS to apply. Damn, if it's so lame, make it better! But then... It's Key we're talking about... I don't believe they like their material altered too much. Although how the same people who made Air, made such a horrible ending for Kanon is beyond me...

Having the said the above, I don't care whether Yuuichi ends up with someone. Hell, I prefer if he DOESN'T end up with someone. I was really for a heart-wrenching no-girl ending (which is good), BECAUSE of Ayu (cheers to seemingly dead Ayu, you will be remembered, you were great), and then Ayu herself comes up and ruins it... Coming back from the (seemingly) dead CAN have a good impact in certain cases, but this case was crap and judging from the other arcs so far, I don't think any new material KyoAni may add will make it better.

Personally, I want Shiori to stay as much alive as she was in Toei's version. I think the ending of her arc was ok. Plus, she's the only girl Yuuichi actually went on a real date with in this version and had fun. If he has to end up with someone, I'd rather have Shiori a million times than Ayu.

[Raniie]

When you start to want how the series should run or turn out to be, that's when you're starting to watch the show for the wrong reasons. That's all I have to say to you people that are a bit disappointed on how the story developement are turning out, atm.

[npal]

/engaging rant mode

Eh... And what should I be watching a show for? Should I mindlessly feel overjoyed, overlooking any and all flaws it might have and find a crappy excuse to justify whatever plotholes, inconsistencies or plain bad writing there? No wonder they serve us crap in TV...

I watch something to be entertained and this genre already has major flaws anyway, but I enjoy it despite the flaws and hugely prefer it over other genre. That doesn't mean they must add more, my tolerance is not infinite. Even then, I can't understand how some people NEVER find ANY flaw whatsoever in ANY series I care to watch. I didn't ask for a particular mind-blowing scenario (although one is always welcome). If you look at Kanon, seriously, the scenario isn't something innovative, but that's not really the point and I didn't judge the overall setting or scenario. It's got comedy, it's got cute girls, and most of its arcs are handled well, so even if the setting isn't something great, it still works and it works well. And my major gripe with a number of eroge conversions is that they are overall decent to great until they do one thing and mess up for a number of reasons. I have expectations when I waste my time on something and I have even more expectations from a serious series (and Kanon is no comedy, despite the hilarious aspects of KyoAni's adaptation). And I have much higher expectations when I have already seen a version and found the ending disappointing.

I seriously hope this lack of expectations in entertainment I've seen a lot of people have doesn't plague them in real life, too. I can't comprehend how it's possible to like everything about many series when a number of people DO find flaws and have the reasoning to at least do a decent discussion about it (cause I know quite a number of people that just say "this sucks" and leave it there).

I found myself defending something most people seemed to find utterly repulsive and worthless and that's Bleach fillers. But even though I liked it enough to watch and and thought it was nice and not so bad as to be trashed on every occasion, I still was able to acknowledge that it had more flaws than the original manga storyline. It's one thing to like something despite its flaws, and another to try to convince people that it doesn't have flaws.

/rant disengaged

Oh and now that I remember it.

@Devil Doll Well, despite that, I got the same reaction from both adaptations, but you are indeed right, it does seem like Yuuichi is overcoming every obstacle, while Toei's Yuuichi was on the losing side most of the time. That's different from Toei's version... I wonder if there's any hope for a change, or Yuuichi's winning streak will affect the story in a too happy way.

[New/Old]

Ho ho. Lively discussion is always good, but let's make sure it doesn't explode into more, eh. Heh heh.

Hmm... We already have a few thoughts on what the ending may be, although that shouldn't be to hard since most in this are familiar with the material, as per the title of the thread.

Ultimately, while it is not bad at all to discuss the end and the like, it will be Kyoani's decision to what end they will give to Kanon. Personally, this is something I've been wondering myself. Alas, it shall come when it comes, eh. Then, will the opportunity to look over it present itself.

Hmm... Yuuichi winning in each arc so far... Well, that may be a way to put it. Heh heh. But what a way to put it.... Would that change what Kanon is or would that not?... Would it change certain things told within each story? Why a character does something is one thing... but why a writer puts in an action or event is another.... Then again... Hmm... Difficult to say as I am by no means no part of Key. More thinking shall definitely be needed on my part...

Heh heh. Of course, nothing is perfect. Everything has some sort of flaw. Kanon 2006 is the same.

[npal]

It's not that I don't like Kanon. I'm especially frustrated at Kanon because I DID like most of it, I really did (even placed it in my top 5), until Ayu woke up (which got it removed and place at the bottom of my anime list). And I see signs that it's going to be repeated and I'm kind of worried that I'll be enjoying it until they wake up Ayu again and then feel like I've wasted my time and feel they messed up something that could have been golden. Add to that some game players that cry murder because "it's Ayu's game blah blah true ending blab blah (like a multiple path eroge has ONE "true" ending, most endings are "true" as far as me and eroge are concerned, I can't see any difference in getting one or another girl's ending)" and yeah, I'm jumping the gun a bit more than usual because of all this.

I'm not saying KyoAni isn't trustworthy but they stick to the arc resolutions too close to Toei's so far, so while I expect them to impress me with their superb animation, good jokes and more things to watch than the previous version, I feel like they, too, will do the same thing as Toei all over again.

And after all, this is a speculation thread, I can voice my expectations, I think

[Ascaloth]

@npal,

Do this the Skane way, dude. Wait until it's all over before definitively giving your opinion. Like I said, no need to prematurely call for the poor girl's head.