2008-02-06, 23:34 | Link #41 | ||
Toyosaki Aki
Scanlator
Join Date: Nov 2007
|
Quote:
Quote:
IMO, you shouldn't say that memory has nothing to do with intelligence. It really depends on the field. In say...medicine, memorizing lots of information does indeed make you "smarter". Are you saying doctors are dumb because their job only requires matching symptoms to illness? Memorizing anatomy, diseases, and treatments while having to actively recall that info on a whim doesn't require intelligence? Memory is far from limited to trivia. Even in your example of math, you need to know and remember a lot of theorems, identities, and algorithms to be able to do high level math. As Papaya says, intelligence can only be operationally defined. We can only say someone is intelligent if he fulfills certain requirements, such as being able to critical think. You simply cannot refute a link between intelligence and memory because we don't know how intelligence works.
__________________
|
||
2008-02-07, 00:37 | Link #42 |
I disagree with you all.
Join Date: Dec 2005
|
IME, understanding stuff, linking it to other stuff, makes it easier to remember. Intelligence can definitely help you, there.
But exceptional intelligence doesn't necessarily translate to exceptional memory, and even if you're a genius, you can forget where you put down your key or your own phone number. |
2008-02-07, 02:28 | Link #43 | |
Toyosaki Aki
Scanlator
Join Date: Nov 2007
|
Quote:
__________________
|
|
2008-02-07, 05:51 | Link #44 |
Banned
|
This subject actually hits me somewhat close to home. You see, I was one of those gifted kids that was said to be in the top 1 percentile and was always at or near the top of every class I was in. Though, as is often the case with those that are said to be "gifted" I had to pay a price on another front. In my case it's a drive towards perfectionism and an insistence on saving face being the first thing I try to accomplish when things go wrong rather than to immediately start coming up with a solution. I'm sure people can see it in me even in this online persona. In this sense once can almost see in intellectually gifted person just in the way they behave around others. For example the dishwasher at the place where I work is most definitely a mathematical wizard. I've looked at some of the geometric diagrams he has drawn and even I can barely understand them. This intellectual capacity is contrasted though by his social awkardness. To put it specifically, he is very quiet and unfortunately somewhat disinterested in his job and has some very odd social mannerism such as mumbling Shakespearean quotes to himself.
This is all on Wikipedia actually under Social and emotional issues of the intellectually gifted. Also, those who are gifted tend to be so in one very specific area that ultimately allows them to test higher on I.Q scores and such. It took me almost 10 years of struggling to figure out what my speciality was, but I found it was a well above average ability to absord, retain and understand knowledge at a much faster rate then my peers. I started to notice this when I would frequently (very frequently in fact) say something to someone one day or have a discussion with them, and then bring it up again in a couple of weeks or so only to find out that they didn't remember any of it and thought I was crazy. Initially this used to make my quite angry, thinking people took me for a freak or something, but then I eventually started to realize as it happened more and more that maybe I was the one who was out of the ordinary and that people just didn't memorize things right down to the smallest detail like I did. I sort of felt a bit guilty at that point and have ever since tried to slow things down for most people so that there isn't such a communication gap between me and others. It can be hard at times, but I know I owe it to people to do so. I also noticed that I tended to learn things faster than others. While my peers would have to have things explained to them many times over the course of a prolonged period, I would usually pick up on the complete meaning of a topic the first or at most the second time it was explained. It even sometimes scared me how fast I would come to understand something that I was only introduced to mere minutes ago for the very fist time. I don't think I could explain it if I tried. And I also don't think I could really explain what makes a genius or what the one true definition of intelligence is if I tried for even a thousand years. I just think that some of us have special talents, or our synapses are wired in such a way that we are able to decide, absorb and/or understand things faster than the average person. It's a gift not to be misused, nor taken for granted, and really I don't think it's anything special anyway when you consider the number of geniuses that also have to struggle just to irk out a constructive social life while people of average intelligence frequently enjoy quite productive ones. I think my Mother's boss and mentor put it quite well when I asked him why some of the professors at the University I went to (he went there too) behaved so strangely at times and seemed unapproachable. He said to me that "At least half of the professors who work and teach at Universities are there because they can't coexist with the outside world and among the normal workforce." Sometimes I wonder if he wasn't half-serious. |
2008-02-07, 12:56 | Link #45 | |||
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2005
|
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
__________________
|
|||
2008-02-07, 13:47 | Link #46 |
I disagree with you all.
Join Date: Dec 2005
|
tripperazn: Well, I'm not saying they're completely independent. I do agree that intelligence and memory support each other. I'm just saying one doesn't necessarily goes with the other. (Within reason. If, say, you're brain damaged and your memory's completely shot, you'll find using what intelligence you have quite hard.)
And if you want to call memory a kind of intelligence - that's just a matter of semantics. Why not? But I prefer not to, because I like to think of intelligence as more constructive than what you get with just rote learning. edit: skimmed your wikipedia link. It appears crystallized intelligence isn't memory. Last edited by Anh_Minh; 2008-02-07 at 16:30. |
2008-02-07, 17:03 | Link #47 | ||
Toyosaki Aki
Scanlator
Join Date: Nov 2007
|
Quote:
True, you can't ignore the social aspects of being a doctor. However, memory is in large part what allows the doctor to do his job. This is a great example of crystallized intelligence. The doctor diagnoses and treats a patient by drawing from a very large pool of memorized knowledge and applies that knowledge to problem solve. Okay...remember that correlation DOES NOT imply causation, one of the fundamental tenets of statistics. Therefore, disproving correlation doesn't imply no causation, by logic. I didn't say they were necessarily related, but you can't really say they have nothing to do with each other either, as they are somewhat correlated. Quote:
__________________
|
||
2008-02-07, 23:10 | Link #48 |
Bittersweet Distractor
Join Date: Nov 2007
Age: 32
|
Spoiler:
I'm not trying to be degrading by any means, but everyone in my family has a pretty good memory about things that happen. I remember how many conversations play out exactly from like a month ago. It doesn't seem like such a awkward thing in society to have, but perhaps I am misunderstanding or just haven't really focused on other people around me. That whole idea about the professors and people becoming less sociable as their intellect peeks is quite a funny thing to me. It certainly seems like that people who don't really give much thought to life, enjoy life better and get along better with others better as well. Are there any psychological studies about how sociable people are compared to their IQ score or something like it?
__________________
|
2008-02-08, 00:03 | Link #49 | |||
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2005
|
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
I'm not sure what you're referring to when you say that memory and intelligence are "somewhat correlated".
__________________
|
|||
2008-02-08, 00:19 | Link #50 | |
Toyosaki Aki
Scanlator
Join Date: Nov 2007
|
Quote:
Okay, so are you saying the being a doctor doesn't require intelligence? As far as I know, it doesn't really involve very much critical thinking. If you can recall all possible diagnoses and all potential treatments, as well as their side effects/potency and weigh them with the individual patient's situation in mind, you'd be a very good doctor. Maybe I could have phrased that a little better, by "causation" I didn't really mean direct causation. Just because there is no correlation between memory and intelligence in potency, doesn't mean that there isn't an underlying connection between the two aspects of cognition. By somewhat correlated I mean "there is some correlation". As you know, correlation between 2 variables is commonly expressed as a continuum with the correlation coefficient (r), which can range between 0 and +/-1. Memory and intelligence is probably not highly correlated (.85-1), but I would think that it is moderately correlated (.5-.84). Several Wikipedia articles say that IQ is correlated to memory, but it gives no sources or values.
__________________
|
|
2008-02-08, 00:39 | Link #51 |
we girls arnt safe!
Artist
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: In the space between your walls
Age: 36
|
I strongly support the theory that intelligence is linked to good memory.
while you wont need a great memory to put a hard puzle together, you will need it to quickly redo things that have been done before. |
2008-02-08, 01:01 | Link #52 | ||
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2005
|
Quote:
Quote:
The problem is that it's easy to think of relative simpletons who still have prodigious memories.
__________________
|
||
2008-02-08, 01:30 | Link #53 | |
Toyosaki Aki
Scanlator
Join Date: Nov 2007
|
Quote:
It is measurable, with very simple experiments, but my point was that I can only speculate since I don't have that data. However, my point was that correlation means little in the face of a high level of interplay between intelligence and memory on a neural level. You simply need to have a good memory to be able to perform tasks that would qualify you as intelligent, such as writing a dissertation. That requires not only the problem solving and organizational skills, but you must simultaneously recall the contents in relation to each other to be able to even begin planning an outline. Even basic critical thinking such as a puzzle with several givens requires a clear memory to hold all the pieces of the puzzle as other parts of the brain interact with that information. This is highly relevant to being "intelligent" because as someone pointed out, we have no way of measuring intelligence at the moment except "operationally". If you can perform X and another person can't, you are deemed more intelligent than he. We can't say at this point because your frontal lobe is 3 cm^2 bigger, you are more intelligent. Do you see what I am driving at? I could argue that because it is easy for you to think of so many examples that stick out in your memory that that kind of person is rather rare. After all, we don't remember commonplace events well. Fact is, your recall is so biased by psychological phenomena that it really doesn't prove your point either way. For example, confirmation bias.
__________________
|
|
2008-02-08, 02:39 | Link #54 |
Asuki-tan Kairin ↓
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Fürth (GER)
Age: 43
|
To put it as blunt as possible... thinking (and therfore intelligence) is based heavily on pattern recognition. The word recognition implies the use of memory.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neural_network gives a good summary on the basics of neural networks. Though artificial neurons cannot be directly compared with neurons in the human brain, yet the basic principles are very similar. If you understand how that works, you can draw some parallels to priming/facilitation. Priming/facilitation is very similar to the concept of teaching sets in artificial neural networks.
__________________
|
2008-02-08, 03:09 | Link #55 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2007
Age: 32
|
Quote:
sorry if this is offtopic xD |
|
2008-02-08, 11:57 | Link #56 | |
An Intellectual Idiot
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: The Internet, ranging from the World of Warcraft------Deviantart----and much more!..My mostly WoW
Age: 31
|
Quote:
|
|
2010-04-09, 14:26 | Link #57 | |||||||
World's Greatest
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: San Francisco
Age: 36
|
What are this board's opinions on the correlation between race and intelligence? I had a debate a day ago on another message board with this person (who I believe is an idiot) that was in firm belief that blacks were genetically more violent and or perhaps less intelligent than people of other ethnic backgrounds.
Here is a background on what we discussed. And no I'm not just venting anger. I'm not even angry. This is to spark an opinion on same subject. I think it would be best to get my viewpoints on the matter by posting a previous discussion I had. This was actually a discussion that went off the original premise of the thread, which was about former New York Giants runningback Tiki Barber leaving his eight month pregnant wife. Me: Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Now I want to get your opinions on the matter. Not this particular discussion, but the issue in general about the connection between race and intelligence.
__________________
|
|||||||
2010-04-09, 14:41 | Link #58 |
Disabled By Request
Join Date: Jan 2010
|
Intelligence linked by race? Oh my god.. xD that made my day.
Intelligence is emasured by a person's brainpower at birth, genetics playing an important role in this. Blacks more violent? XD yeah, if you measure an entire race by the black ones signing about sex and drugs. Intelligence is intuitive, competence, and above all - skill. Excel in is part of the wiring we are privileged to. What we do with it is up to us, as an individual. Wasting it is below intelligence. I have to call this one an idiot. Not even my 'Free Will perspective' argument can hold ground on that one. That is blatant bias and prejudice. There is a word for that Stupidity Let us recollect out pieces~~ the intelligent ones are the successful ones in life, yes? Untrue. Intelligence is measured by a person's wiring. This is factual. Along with their experience in school and socializing. Variables exist in abundance. This is simple-minded bigotry, you actual waste time responding? Shame on you. To put it nicer, don't waste time with this person anymore. He sounds stubborn and adamant about believing blacks are minority. He was probably raised to think and rationalize as such. You think you can change a person that's been taught and been like that for their entire life? Tsk tsk tsk. |
2010-04-09, 14:56 | Link #59 |
Obey the Darkly Cute ...
Author
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: On the whole, I'd rather be in Kyoto ...
Age: 66
|
That's a several hundred year old argument that has never survived scientific scrutiny (race-intelligence). It depends completely on anecdotal experience.
Basically, any *statistical* innate wiring differences from isolated gene pools is going to be completely drowned out by social/environmental factors. I can find obnoxious misogynist racist idiots in any color or from any country and I can find their opposites as well.
__________________
|
2010-04-09, 15:01 | Link #60 |
Frandle & Nightbag
Join Date: Oct 2009
|
To put it simply, Samari, the guy you're arguing with is taking a very myopic view of the world. Not only is he failing to consider history from very nearly every angle it is possible to fail from, but he is also applying a post-Industrial, Northwestern European/American perspective of cultural values that would blind him to the error of his assertions even if he was really evaluating the complex web of factors that define African history. I doubt you'll be able to show such a person anything that will impact him.
As far as the central subject, intelligence and genius are somewhat distinct. I think intelligence is just the fact of what someone is capable of mentally: and not just in wholly academic pursuits, but in every consciously thought-out aspect of every activity. So, for instance, you may not think off the top of your head that being an excellent F1 racer requires a lot of brains, but you try to think about what's involved in coordinating your body to control a piece of metal screaming along at speeds most people will never see let alone experience in such a way that you stay on a twisty track, optimize your lap time around said track and prevent yourself from crashing...there's no word for that other than intelligence. However, there are probably people around the world whose minds are wired perfectly for just that who never actually do it. This is where genius becomes distinct. A genius is the person who takes that exceptional intelligence of some sort and uses it in a way that it has a profound impact on their field. The people we remember as geniuses quite possibly were not the most gifted in their particular area of expertise in their time, but they were the ones who made the most powerful use of their gift. A genius is born from the confluence of opportunity, recognition of value, passion, practice, timing--in a historical sense--and the smallest individual contributing factor is naturally born talent.
__________________
|
Thread Tools | |
|
|