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Old 2015-01-13, 19:27   Link #141
lmw
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nandesuto View Post
The real problem is we simply lack any hard information about the actual outcomes and what effect, if any, the game - or anything else - have in determining them. For all the information we have, everything could very well be meaningless, and it's just a random 50/50 at the end.

I can appreciate the idea of leaving things open to interpretation, but this is overdoing it.
I don't see it as a problem because it's only the first episode. If nothing is explained in the end I would be inclined to agree with you, but I really doubt that.
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Old 2015-01-13, 23:30   Link #142
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this a nice series, will watch.
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Old 2015-01-14, 19:02   Link #143
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ohhh i like the black hair girl
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Old 2015-01-14, 22:12   Link #144
Jan-Poo
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I finally watched this.

After several considerations this is what I think what happened. I believe that all the flashbacks were true and that no lie has been shown to us.

I think Machiko was genuinely in love with her husband, all that we have seen about her face expressions in the flashbacks suggest she was.

Machiko's friends gossip was definitely about Machida Yuuki. Not only we have a confirmation that Machida Yuuki existed and that she was indeed invited to the ceremony, that whole dialog wouldn't make much sense otherwise. That scene obviously happened on the very day of the wedding, so it's very unlikely that they didn't know already that the groom was a doctor.

We then have seen that Takashi grew suspicious of his wife and that deeply impacted on his behavior toward her. It is easy to imagine that their relationship degenerated.

During Machiko's confession we see another flashback that suggests she slept with another man. However from the scene there doesn't seem to be any affection between the two and that was probably just casual sex and possibly a one night stand.
The important hint is that she had already a wedding ring there, so she was already married and her betrayal was likely a result of the degenerated relationship.

Another important hint is that during the flashbacks that show how Machiko encountered, fell in love and then Married Takashi, he pregnancy test comes before the ceremony, and she was smiling warmly there.
This suggests that in the end the child that she was bearing was Takashi's and not her lover's.

On the whole I am very impressed on how this episode managed to expose this story in a way that directly challenges the spectator's ability to reason about what was shown to draw conclusions, although it is practically impossible to get them all with just a single view.


I'm not quite sure what the purpose of the game actually is about. Machiko won, this much was stated, however her husband reincarnated while she was sent to the void (the masks suggest that her was the worse fate and not the nirvana).

So did she get the worst fate because she won? Or maybe her winning or losing was irrelevant and all that mattered is that it was ascertained that she betrayed her husband?

But even then was she really more culpable, or simply she got the worst fate because she decided to take the role of the evil one?

Since all these questions are related to the whole system of Death Parade, the answers will probably come in later episodes.
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Old 2015-01-15, 07:07   Link #145
ninryu
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I think I'm going to drop this anime simply because I can't stand seeing innocent people suffer for no reason whatsoever. It doesn't have the "beacon of hope" that depressing stories must have in order to stay engaging.

My though on the first episode: Machiko realized her husband was about to be sent to hell, so she made up a lie so she would go to hell and his soul will be saved. It's cruel, sadistic, and there's absolutely no reason why both of them couldn't reincarnate. They are perfectly normal people and have done nothing worth being sent to hell for.
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Old 2015-01-15, 07:42   Link #146
Jan-Poo
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Originally Posted by ninryu View Post
I think I'm going to drop this anime simply because I can't stand seeing innocent people suffer for no reason whatsoever. It doesn't have the "beacon of hope" that depressing stories must have in order to stay engaging.

My though on the first episode: Machiko realized her husband was about to be sent to hell, so she made up a lie so she would go to hell and his soul will be saved. It's cruel, sadistic, and there's absolutely no reason why both of them couldn't reincarnate. They are perfectly normal people and have done nothing worth being sent to hell for.
Don't watch Jigoku Shoujo then, it's even worse on that regard.

But to be honest I'm kinda confused about what religious philosophy regarding afterlife this anime is adhering to.

I know that there are different Buddhist sects so interpretation may vary, but, according to what I read on several sources the Buddhist hell isn't void by any means. It is actually more akin to the Christian purgatory in that it's not permanent and after a while the soul returns to the reincarnation cycle. The thing that is actually more akin to the concept of void in the Buddhist afterlife is the "Nirvana" and that's really the only sure way to not get reincarnated again.
From the Buddhist perspective being reincarnated is actually not a good thing, it means that you failed the "test" and you need to do it all over again.
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Old 2015-01-16, 12:37   Link #147
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Episode 2:
Spoiler:
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Old 2015-01-16, 13:54   Link #148
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Well... shit happens, I guess?
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Old 2015-01-16, 14:00   Link #149
HandofFate
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At the first episode, wasn't keen on it.

But episode 2 was a neat concept.
If they keep this pattern up, I might stick with this series after all.

With how they use 1 episode to play the game, then use the next episode to review the game and answer any questions that viewers might end up naturally having.

Poor machiko, she got screwed by the robotic bartender
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Old 2015-01-16, 14:36   Link #150
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Wait, there is more than one arbiter?!
Guess that makes sense since there are a lot of dead people circling.
Decim seems to be our main man.
Looks like he got a new assistant.
This was happening at the same time as that couple was playing their game.
So this episode was more like an explanation of how things work.
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Old 2015-01-16, 14:38   Link #151
Miraluka
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Originally Posted by ookamigirl View Post
Wait, there is more than one arbiter?!
As if it wasn't obvious in the previous chapter .
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Old 2015-01-16, 14:39   Link #152
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Well, looks like I was right and she indeed cheated, and later resented it.

Although we still don't know the reason or how it came to it thats an unashakable fact.
Moreover it must have happeed sometime between her marriage and her honeymoon (whenever that was, so it might have even been the very night of the marriage).

So behavior wise the only thing speaking for her to get reincarnation was her sacrifice at towards the end.
Taking that away both should have gotten the elevator to the void.

On that note: It was never said that they can't leave in the same elevator.
Imagine Bonny and Clyde going down there and one of them actually gets reincarnation while the other gets the void - would be rather hypocritical.


Nona is certainly not remotely as nice as she pretends to be in front of miss unknown.

That is, if her 'the Term is only for 3 months' wasn't referring to give Machiko and Taskashi 3 more month's to live.
Although my suspicion is more that she was referring to the unkknown girl remaining with Decim.
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Old 2015-01-16, 14:46   Link #153
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This episode doesn't entirely redeem the premiere but it sure as hell made the story a lot more interesting. I feel that there might be some people who may not be okay with the show lifting the veil on the few mysteries the premiere left us with that gave the show some depth. Personally, I'm undecided on that right now.

I'm wondering if it's all some elaborate setup-- an advanced research institute that's interested in studying the vagaries of the human mind and hence has created a weird tribunal system, which entails the lab rats forced to play a deadly game that brings out the best and the worst in them (and sometimes yields very unexpected results). It's a long shot this early in the show, but in a show that's all about deception, you can never know till the very end.

I was surprised to find out that despite his appearances Decim wasn't a know-it-all savant. He's as clueless as the next guy when it comes to understanding the subtleties of the human mind. What's worse is that he's playing the role of an arbiter who passes judgement on whoever walks into their bar based on their performances. Basically, Decim took the results at face value in the last episode and sent the wife, who performed a selfless sacrifice for her spouse, to the void and gave the undeserving husband another shot at life. He fudged up and he seemed to acknowledge that when the newly hired help made him realize the folly of his decision.

What makes the story interesting is the fact the so-called tribunal system is a deeply flawed process. There are waaay too many arbitrary rules and techniques that do nothing but deceive the players and turn against each other so that they could measure the depth of their darkness. For instance, they get to decide which memories they wanna dredge up in the players to stoke the fires at whichever juncture they choose to. They also use theatrics to fool the players into making wrong assumptions which goes a long way in deciding how the results turn up.

The log line of show ought to be "Take nothing at face value".

If they could tone down drama a little bit this show could serve as a deconstruction of the human condition. I really don't like rabid hyper contorted faces.
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Old 2015-01-16, 14:53   Link #154
Klashikari
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Episode 2 was quite interesting, and I wouldn't mind to have the "game / review" pattern for the rest of the series, although I assume episode 2 was an unique case so people have a better grasp of the bar.

That said, the revelations in this episode are a bit... bizarre or even disappointing from a certain perspective.
We can conclude that flashbacks are visible memories for the audience and are solid facts. Decim clearly confirmed that Machiko cheated on Takashi.

However, there are 2 points that dramatically change my perception of the bar:
1) Decim is not an almighty arbiter and can only rely on the memories and behaviours during the game. This implies that Decim is acting like a machine and has hard time to comprehend human emotions and thinking process. This also means that he can't tell if someone is lying or not.

2) Unless it was a plothole, the arbiters don't have a full memory report, which is a bit silly in the narrative.
Even if Decim doesn't understand emotions, I can't believe he didn't understand that Machiko's child was indeed Takashi's, nor the fact she wasn't enjoying her affair with the other man.

At the very least, this episode completely cleared up the situation of the first episode and gave relevant information for future judgment.

That said, while Decim being an arbiter with flaws might be an interesting plot point, it is just difficult to take it seriously when he is supposed to have the memories of the deceased.
I just hope this fact isn't going to bite his ass again, as it can wreck other people as well.
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Old 2015-01-16, 15:22   Link #155
R.LocK
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Klashikari View Post
Unless it was a plothole, the arbiters don't have a full memory report, which is a bit silly in the narrative.
Even if Decim doesn't understand emotions, I can't believe he didn't understand that Machiko's child was indeed Takashi's, nor the fact she wasn't enjoying her affair with the other man.
As I understand it, it's like trying to reproduce lectures from lecturer's notes just after the first read-through. Sure, the arbiters're given just enough details to get the general idea, but they'd need a hella lot of time and efforts to see the whole picture, so they're just skipping through the scenes which seem important. This explanation doesn't cut it without further assumptions, but I'm too sleepy to give it a further thought.
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Old 2015-01-16, 15:30   Link #156
DOmus
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So, that place where Nona went at the end is the void or at least a part of that place???

Im really more confused now, there are two ways to see the end that could work, she did cheated or she lied for him, Im ok with whichever way the correct one(though my vanilla heart wants to think that she lied), but how Nona reacted make me think that she don't want Decim to be the "nice arbiter" and analyze the emotions regarding the last part of the couple, since that could lead to a different ending(he had doubts after hearing what the woman said).

But somehow it was true what she said about takashi in the elevator, so why did a soul that is like that should reborn?? to make it redeem itself and go to the void or what??? thus, that lead me to the other question, Is the void really like that, or its Nona that thinks that and want to make the "x girl" to have the same point of view??

Many question, no answer, more chapter to unveil it. Awesome.
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Old 2015-01-16, 16:25   Link #157
Jan-Poo
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Originally Posted by DOmus View Post
Im really more confused now, there are two ways to see the end that could work, she did cheated or she lied for him, Im ok with whichever way the correct one
She cheated on him, this episode made clear that there are no lies about the flashbacks, those are the genuine memories of the deceased.

However Decim failed to pay attention to the situation, in this episode we see a few more frames that make clear that Machiko regretted deeply what she had done.

The new girl was most likely correct in judging that it was a one time thing. Machiko lied when she said that she only married Takashi for his money and she also lied when she said that the child in her womb wasn't his.

It is therefore true that she sacrificed herself for the sake of his husband, and her sacrifice actually worked since Decim was fooled by it.


This leaves us with the bitter knowledge that between the two the one who mostly deserved to be reincarnated was Machiko, while Takashi was the one who ruined their relationship and ultimately caused the death of both. As Nona put it, he was a man incapable of trusting others, even if he hadn't heard Machiko's friends' gossip he would have eventually started suspecting his wife for other reasons.


Quote:
Originally Posted by DOmus View Post
So, that place where Nona went at the end is the void or at least a part of that place???
Hmmm, why would you say that?


Anyway the interesting thing that emerges from this episode is that we can be ourselves arbiters. After watching the first episodes we all reached our own conclusions and we tried to decide what happened and who was at fault about what.

As we have seen in episode 2, Decim judgement was incorrect, how was yours?

I really really hope that the story will progress in the same direction now, so that it will be like a sort of detective story, but rather than trying to understand who is the murderer and why, we are meant to understand human situations, their emotions and their reasons.
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Old 2015-01-16, 16:46   Link #158
DOmus
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
Hmmm, why would you say that?
Because we don't exactly have an idea of what the arbiters truly are, maybe they are souls selected to do that or some higher existence, and that would let them travel to different levels of the world or the place that they are(since Queen is in floor 15), and maybe the void could be one of them.
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Old 2015-01-16, 17:18   Link #159
Lota
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So far I am loving this series. As far as the story of episode 1 is concerned, I reached the same conclusion as the black-haired woman. It's interesting to see that the arbiter can be wrong. I wonder if the status quo remains the same here as in Death Billiards about the fact that
Spoiler for not much of a spoiler, but just in case:
If that's the case, the woman was probably sent here to help him with the whole human emotions/feelings aspect. My guess is that the woman is probably a human with some special circumstances that we'll find out about in the future. Gahhh, I'm just so excited about this, can't wait to find out what the rest of this whole story is!
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Old 2015-01-16, 17:33   Link #160
konart
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Originally Posted by AC-Phoenix View Post
Imagine Bonny and Clyde going down there and one of them actually gets reincarnation while the other gets the void - would be rather hypocritical.
It wouldn't. They aren't judging them for their deeds - remember?
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